And he's bound by it why and how?Originally Posted by Sola_Fide
You are wise in your eyes. But Paul says God was pleased to make the foolish people of this world the truly wise ones. The wise are going to be shamed.
God is not bound to the laws He has for humans, but His law is a reflection of His holy being and character, which never changes.
One of my clear contradictions ....... explained.
Jesus descended from which son of David?
(a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
(b) Nathan(Luke3:31)
One for Joseph and one for Mary. Or vice versa.I guess it's the Mary one that really counts.
You're being evasive. You said he couldn't "just forgive sins" because of a law. An omnipotent deity wouldn't have any laws to obey.
God doesn't have to obey the laws He gives humans. Jesus did it voluntarily to fulfill the requirements of the law to save the elect.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
The idea of a deity "breathing life" into inanimate matter is cross-cultural. It's an interesting idea; maybe first imagined as the inverse of people taking their final breath?
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
Read for comprehension. I didn't say wise, I said common sense. They are NOT the same.
I guess you're right--it does say that Joseph is from the house of David. I don't know--could be that God chose Joseph to be the earthly father of Jesus for Mary's sake in those days.
Plot structure.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
We don't know the end of the story, so we don't know what was really bought, so we don't know whether it was worth the price.
Right now we just have promises.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
I don't get the quotation marks in the thread title. Did somebody say that God and Mary "begat" Jesus?
No it isn't. Especially since the Christian conception is that God created ex nihilo or "out of nothing". It stood squarely against all of the pagan conceptions of creation that asserted that the gods arose out of chaos and formed the universe from already existing matter (the same matter that they arose from....which could be another interesting discussion relating to politics).
I've read that lineage in Luke, but I'm still not clear on how it connects Nathan to Mary. How does it connect Nathan to Mary?One of my clear contradictions ....... explained.
Jesus descended from which son of David?
(a) Solomon (Matthew 1:6)
(b) Nathan(Luke3:31)
One for Joseph and one for Mary. Or vice versa.
Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.
Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine
"I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."
What isn't what? Interesting, or that different gods breathed life into the nostrils of man?
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
John 3:16 ......that he (GOD) gave his only begotten son (Jesus).
Mary is the mother of Jesus.
Therefore ...........
Also kind of a carry over from yesterday's moderator destroyed DIVINE pedophilia thread.
The Greek text says monogenes huios which means "one and only son" or "unique son". "Begotten" is not in the text. If you were a student of the Bible, you would know this...but you aren't.
This was indeed a topic of debate in the early centuries of the Church. And the confession handed down by the Apostles as proclaimed by the saints is that Christ is fully human and fully divine, perfect man and perfect God. He is neither a demigod nor a pure fleshless spirit. He ate with them the food He miraculously multiplied by His divine word both before and after He rose from the dead. They held Him and St. Thomas put his hands in His wounds. This is a fundamental truth of the Christian faith. How does this happens? How does God become man? I have no idea! Just as I have no idea how Christ calmed the waters of the sea and walked on the ocean water as if on dry land.
The most fundamental confessions of the Christian faith are not believed because they can be understood, but because it is what has been revealed by God and handed down by men inspired by the Holy Spirit (indeed, living temples of the Holy Spirit). From one generation of baptized members of the body to the next, these beliefs were handed down. And when deviations began to spread or scandal created, it was the duty of the surrounding churches to remind and exhort to the faith of the fathers for common ground and unity of faith and teachings. This is the part of the story of this world
Christ is fully man and fully God because that is what He said about Himself, that He is the only begotten Son of God. This was understood far and wide and the confession of the entire Church spread throughout nations, and when the local heresies would sprout up, as they often did back then just as now, it was the voice of the Church spread far and wide which gave the witness to the orthodox faith, in communication through the Bishops (a practiced started by the Apostles and prevalent by the end of the first century). These were the churches which could claim to be apostolic, and who confessed the catholic and orthodox faith in holy sacramental communion with one another in the shared cup and worship offered to the Father, that is, the Body and Blood of Christ.
The measure of their fidelity to the truths taught and handed down was sealed by the very grace filled communion in Christ, centered around the Divine Banquet and Mystical Supper. Their love and fidelity to the truth and to one another and above all God was manifested in their very communion with one another. With the grace of the Holy Spirit, and in divine love, the holy saints walked upon the earth, for God abided in them. They didn't need to understand how Christ is God, but merely that He is God, the Immanuel, as He told them, and that He is the fulfillment of the prophecies and the only Savior of mankind, One with the Father in Heaven, Who has send down the Holy Spirit as the Comforter and Paraklete of mankind and to guide His sheep.
And He has revealed the Almighty Father in Heaven, in His self-giving sacrifice on the cross and His ever-glorious resurrection from the tomb. And through Him we find our complete salvation, for His risen flesh is the means by which our own human flesh is santified and glorified, and the gate through which we enter the eternal Kingdom of Heaven and into eternal life.
For this reason, my friend, the faithful give praise, and it is to Him they give give glory, and to Him they give worship, to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit. Not because it makes sense, (though it does make sense when one is illuminated by the Holy Spirit), and not simply because it feels right and seems just and good, but also because this is the fath of those beloved fathers who came before them and back to the beginning, and who handed down by word and epistle the revealed truths of the Christian faith, as members united in spirit and flesh. For indeed the truths which are apostolic and which save and which have survived from the beginning could be passed down in no other way, that is, centered in the eucharistic celebration and self-giving worship around the Blood and Body of the New Covenant, that is, the Lord Jesus Christ. Not partially, but fully, and not only spiritually, but of our entire human nature. Our worship, therefore, and our whole life as a prayer to God, must be in spirit and truth, as Christ commanded His Apostles who in turn handed down to the Church.
Last edited by TER; 04-16-2015 at 07:57 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
You're being very unclear. Those periods are like Seinfeld's yada yada yada. Just say what you mean.
In the verse you just quoted, the only begotten Son of God was already the only begotten Son of God before God gave him, that is, before he was conceived in Mary. Mary had nothing to do with God the Son being God the Son. That verse makes no mention of her. So I still don't see the connection you're making, or how this could possibly have anything to do with pedophilia or Jesus being fully human.
Also, the phrase "only begotten" just means one-of-a-kind.
Mary got pregnant by Joseph before they were married - they were "betrothed" or "espoused" which is the same thing as engaged.
They were treated the same way our grandparents treated girls that got knocked up - it was sincerely frowned upon.
Over the years as the story was told that unsavory bit was gradually weeded out.
The folks in the audience for the Sermon on the Mount were mostly illiterate - peasants, fisherman, shepherds and farmers. They couldn't read and write and didn't need to.
In oral tradition, stories are shaped to support the moral of the story, the historical facts are not the point - not the way we think of history today.
Last edited by Jamesiv1; 04-16-2015 at 09:20 PM.
- Don't lie.
- Don't cheat.
- Don't steal.
- Don't kill.
- Don't commit adultery.
- Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
- Honor your father and mother.
- Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
- Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
- Do unto others as you would have them do to you.
"For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV
you sir, are going to be in BIG trouble if it turns out that the Mormons and Sola are right.
"If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein
"for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.
Wrong.
23 Jesus, when he began his ministry, was about thirty years of age, being the son (as was supposed) of Joseph, the son of Heli, 24 the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, the son of Melchi, the son of Jannai, the son of Joseph, 25 the son of Mattathias, the son of Amos, the son of Nahum, the son of Esli, the son of Naggai, 26 the son of Maath, the son of Mattathias, the son of Semein, the son of Josech, the son of Joda, 27 the son of Joanan, the son of Rhesa, the son of Zerubbabel, the son of Shealtiel,[a] the son of Neri, 28 the son of Melchi, the son of Addi, the son of Cosam, the son of Elmadam, the son of Er, 29 the son of Joshua, the son of Eliezer, the son of Jorim, the son of Matthat, the son of Levi, 30 the son of Simeon, the son of Judah, the son of Joseph, the son of Jonam, the son of Eliakim, 31 the son of Melea, the son of Menna, the son of Mattatha, the son of Nathan, the son of David, 32 the son of Jesse, the son of Obed, the son of Boaz, the son of Sala, the son of Nahshon, 33 the son of Amminadab, the son of Admin, the son of Arni, the son of Hezron, the son of Perez, the son of Judah, 34 the son of Jacob, the son of Isaac, the son of Abraham, the son of Terah, the son of Nahor, 35 the son of Serug, the son of Reu, the son of Peleg, the son of Eber, the son of Shelah, 36 the son of Cainan, the son of Arphaxad, the son of Shem, the son of Noah, the son of Lamech, 37 the son of Methuselah, the son of Enoch, the son of Jared, the son of Mahalaleel, the son of Cainan, 38 the son of Enos, the son of Seth, the son of Adam, the son of God.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
So was he like an Adam do-over?
Don't see any "begat"s in there soooo.....how wrong?
Kind of, although what you are insinuating is that there is some kind of conditionality in God's decrees. But all of this has been predestined from the beginning.
In Romans 5, Jesus is described as the "second Adam". It means that the first Adam, as the federal head of the human race, represents all those in him who have sinned and die eternally. Jesus is the Second Adam, who's perfect life was perfectly acceptable to God, and all those in Him are saved by His perfect life.
Saying "X is the son of Y" is the same as saying "Y begat X." Compare this genealogy to the one in Matthew 1 if you don't understand that.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Mary had nothing to do with God the Son being God the Son.
This is something the Nestorians argued in the fourth and fifth centuries, whereby they refused to proclaim the Virgin Mary to be Theotokos, but simply called her Christotokos, or Birther of Christ. However, the orthodox belief is that she is the Birther of God. Not, of course, that she is the Mother of God the Father or the primal source and cause of Christ's divinity, but rather, that she is the birther and mother of God the Son Who is the Person of Jesus Christ.
The confusion of the Nestorians is because they regarded Christ into essentially two hypostases and indeed two persons, a divine person and a human person. However, the orthodox teaching as proclaimed by the Church is that Christ is one hypostases and one person. The human flesh of Jesus Christ was given by the pure Virgin, (that is, her own flesh is the source of His humanity, which is a belief both of the orthodox and the Nestorians and indeed anyone who claims to be a Christian), but as Christ is One Person, she too is the Mother of the Son of God, whose perfect union of divinity and humanity was manifest by both the flesh of the Virgin and the Holy Spirit which filled her at the Annunciation when she humbly submitted to the will of God, and in effect, reversed the curse of Eve.
Thus, to say that Mary had nothing to do with God the Son being God the Son is inaccurate. Of course, all things originate from God, but to dismiss the fact that it was in her pure and sanctified womb which He received flesh and life and say she had nothing to do with His incarnation as Theanthropos and Son of God, goes against important incarnational truths and apostolic teachings which have been handed down and defended through the ages.
Last edited by TER; 04-16-2015 at 10:42 PM.
+'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ
Erowe isn't arguing for Nestorianism. Nestorianism is the belief that Jesus was two persons: a human person and a divine person. This wrong because Jesus is one divine person with two distinct natures. It is important to understand that the council of Chalcedon, and all the other councils, never answered all the questions. Jesus can be one person but have distinct natures.
Nobody is suggesting anything about God having to obey laws that he gives to humans. We were talking about the "law" which you invoked as the reason why God can't just forgive people. What is this law? Why does God need to abide by it? Who created the law that God can't just forgive people? If God is omnipotent then you cannot claim that he is unable to forgive people without requiring sacrifices - and specifically, a "sacrifice" of himself that ended up with him not even staying dead.
Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter
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