Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 356

Thread: God's Sovereignty vs. Man's "Will"

  1. #1

    God's Sovereignty vs. Man's "Will"

    From another thread:

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Something WITHOUT a will does whatever it does because it is acted on by a governing force. Something WITH a will does what it does because it WANTS to do what it does.

    Man WANTS to do what he does. Man WANTS to sin. Man has a SINFUL WILL, and he SINS WILLFULLY with his SINFUL WILL.

    I'm using exclamations and emphasis so you can see what I am saying. You are describing puppets. Men are not puppets. Men WANT to do their sin.
    Why does man want to sin?
    Why does man sin?

    If as you say God controls every facet of existence, the answer is obvious: Man wants to sin because God makes him want to sin. Man sins because God makes him sin.

    If God is in utter and complete control, then man cannot want or do anything of his own accord. You simply cannot grasp that your insistence upon a sovereign God is logically inconsistent with anything occurring that is not due to the Will of God.

    I made an analogy in a different thread comparing your view of man to Kermit the Frog. Both are puppets (or Muppets, if you prefer) in the sense that neither can do anything without the determination of someone else. True, Kermit isn't sentient and doesn't have desires. But this is a distinction without a real difference because in your view man's desires and actions aren't something he comes up with on his own. Just as Jim Henson determined everything the Kermit did or said, in your theology God controls all facets of existence, which means He determines everything that man desires or does. To say that man has a will is nothing more than saying that man has predetermined desires that God programmed him to have. Man is no less a puppet because he has and acts on these desires; as Flip Wilson would say, "God made him do it."



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    This thread is predestined to go at least three pages.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  4. #3

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    You simply cannot grasp that your insistence upon a sovereign God is logically inconsistent with anything occurring that is not due to the Will of God.
    Who can't?

    I certainly grasp that nothing occurs that is contrary to God's decree.

    Now if you didn't mean God's decree, but rather God's commands, then what you said is not true. Things do occur that are contrary to God's commands.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    True, Kermit isn't sentient and doesn't have desires. But this is a distinction without a real difference because in your view man's desires and actions aren't something he comes up with on his own. Just as Jim Henson determined everything the Kermit did or said, in your theology God controls all facets of existence, which means He determines everything that man desires or does. To say that man has a will is nothing more than saying that man has predetermined desires that God programmed him to have. Man is no less a puppet because he has and acts on these desires; as Flip Wilson would say, "God made him do it."
    Yes, that's true, which is why what you are talking about is not analogous.

    Sinful man could care less about God's eternal decree. He could care less that there is a God and that He is in control of everything. Man does the sin that he wants to do because he has a will. Man is not a puppet.

    Here is a description of this. I hope you will read every word of this:

    Acts 4:24-28

    And when they heard it, they lifted their voices together to God and said, “Sovereign Lord, who made the heaven and the earth and the sea and everything in them, who through the mouth of our father David, your servant, said by the Holy Spirit,

    “‘Why did the Gentiles rage,
    and the peoples plot in vain?
    The kings of the earth set themselves,
    and the rulers were gathered together,
    against the Lord and against his Anointed’

    for truly in this city there were gathered together against your holy servant Jesus, whom you anointed, both Herod and Pontius Pilate, along with the Gentiles and the peoples of Israel, to do whatever your hand and your plan had predestined to take place.
    There were 4 parties who were complicit in the murder of Jesus: Herod, Pontius Pilate, the Gentiles, and the people of Israel.

    4 parties were complicit in the murder of Jesus. All 4 parties had their own unique motives and unique wills. But all 4 parties did what they did because of what "YOUR HAND AND YOUR PURPOSE PREDESTINED TO OCCUR".

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    True, Kermit isn't sentient and doesn't have desires. But this is a distinction without a real difference because in your view man's desires and actions aren't something he comes up with on his own. Just as Jim Henson determined everything the Kermit did or said, in your theology God controls all facets of existence, which means He determines everything that man desires or does. To say that man has a will is nothing more than saying that man has predetermined desires that God programmed him to have. Man is no less a puppet because he has and acts on these desires; as Flip Wilson would say, "God made him do it."
    If you really believe this argument, then what's your way out of saying that we're all puppets?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    If you really believe this argument, then what's your way out of saying that we're all puppets?
    There is no way out. That conclusion follows from S-F's belief in God's total sovereignty. I never claimed to believe it..
    Last edited by Sonny Tufts; 03-31-2015 at 04:42 PM.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Sinful man could care less [sic] about God's eternal decree. He could care less [sic] that there is a God and that He is in control of everything. Man does the sin that he wants to do because he has a will. Man is not a puppet.
    No, according to you man sins because God had predetermined that man will sin. Man has no choice in the matter; his desires and sinful acts come straight from God.

    Incidentally, you really meant to say "Man couldn't care less..."

    Here is a description of this. I hope you will read every word of this
    The last part you underlined says it all -- God, not man, determines what happens. It is meaningless to say that someone was complicit when his actions were completely determined and caused by God.



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    There is no way out. That conclusion follows from S-F's belief in God's total sovereignty. I never claimed to believe it..
    Read my post. That conclusion doesn't follow. You are not allowing the Bible to define its own position. God's total sovereignty does not negate man's will. Men aren't puppets as you keep suggesting they are.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    There is no way out. That conclusion follows from S-F's belief in God's total sovereignty. I never claimed to believe it..
    If it follows from SF's view, then it follows from any view that admits that our choices are determined by antecedent causes.

    As far as I can tell, the only way out is to say that our choices just happen without cause.

    So, back to my question, what is your way out of saying that we're all puppets?
    Last edited by erowe1; 03-31-2015 at 05:09 PM.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    No, according to you man sins because God had predetermined that man will sin. Man has no choice in the matter; his desires and sinful acts come straight from God.
    There are many theological nuances that would come in to play here, but if we just put those aside for a second, you still are not letting the Bible define it's own position. Man does have a choice in the matter. Man loves his sin. Man WANTs to do his sin. You make it seem like man is trying to choose God and God is stopping them from doing it. That is not the case. Man wants to sin with his sinful will.


    The last part you underlined says it all -- God, not man, determines what happens. It is meaningless to say that someone was complicit when his actions were completely determined and caused by God.
    No it's not meaningless, because it distinguishes the Biblical position from the puppet analogy you keep trying to suggest. The difference between the two is: man's will.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post

    So, back to my question, what is your way out of saying that we're all puppets?

    And this is the real interesting thing, because if we were to delve into Sonny's atheistic worldview, we would find what kind of determinist he really is...be it biological, behavioral, genetic, or what have you.

    This is because determinism is an inescapable concept. It is a feature of every worldview.

  15. #13
    "No one can serve two masters. Either you will hate the one and love the other, or you will be devoted to the one and despise the other. You cannot serve both God and money (CPA, Tax Attorney, etc.)."
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

    Openly Straight Man, Danke, Awarded Top Rated Influencer. Community Standards Enforcer.


    Quiz: Test Your "Income" Tax IQ!

    Short Income Tax Video

    The Income Tax Is An Excise, And Excise Taxes Are Privilege Taxes

    The Federalist Papers, No. 15:

    Except as to the rule of appointment, the United States have an indefinite discretion to make requisitions for men and money; but they have no authority to raise either by regulations extending to the individual citizens of America.

  16. #14
    It's the logical fallacy of the creator of all things "God", be it the determinist one or "free will" giving one.
    Puppets can't possibly disobey their creator.
    Last edited by robert68; 03-31-2015 at 05:17 PM.

  17. #15
    One of the most famous behavioral determinists was Carl Sagan:

    Behaviorism


    One of Dr. Sagan’s certainties concerns the nature of thought. He does not believe that he has a mind, and some times this writer is inclined to agree. He maintains that “mind” is the term we use to describe the workings of the brain. He is a behaviorist. To define the term, I quote Ernest Nagel’s Presidential Address to the American Philosophical Association in 1954:


    The occurrence of events, qualities, and processes, and the characteristic behavior of various individuals, are contingent on the organization of spatio-temporally located bodies, whose internal and external relations determine and limit the appearance and disappearance of everything that happens. That this is so, is one of the best-tested conclusions of experience.... There is no place for the operation of disembodied forces, no place for an immaterial spirit directing the course of events, no place for the survival of personality after the corruption of the body which exhibits it.


    This notion, that mind is merely the behavior of matter, has been advocated by many leading philosophers and scientists, among them John Dewey, John Watson, and B.F. Skinner. Skinner is justly famous for his attack on political freedom and human dignity and his advocacy of a totalitarian society controlled by scientists. Watson was an experimental psychologist of the early twentieth century who exerted enormous influence in both psychology and philosophy. Dewey, of course, is notorious for his influence on American government schools. He is the prime reason why Johnny can’t think, for Dewey did not believe in thinking: according to Dewey, one learns by doing. Dewey wrote: “Habits formed in the process of exercising biological aptitudes are the sole agents of observation, recollection, fore sight and judgment: a mind or consciousness or soul in general which performs these operations is a myth.... Knowledge lives in the muscles, not in consciousness.”


    Carl Sagan accepts this behaviorism. In The Dragons of Eden, subtitled Speculations on the Evolution of Human Intelligence, he writes (7): “My fundamental premise about the brain is that its workings-what we sometimes call `mind’-are a consequence of its anatomy and physiology, and nothing more. `Mind’ may be a consequence of the action of the components of the brain severally or collectively.... We are, to a remarkable degree, the results of the interactions of an extremely complex array of molecules.... Because there is not a shred of evidence to support [sic] it, I will not in these pages entertain any hypotheses on what used to be called the mind-body dualism, the idea that inhabiting the matter of the body is something made of quite different stuff, called mind.”


    Notice that Sagan presents this behaviorism as a premise, not as a conclusion. He does not argue for it, but assumes it, because, as he says, there is not a shred of evidence for the existence of mind. Obviously, if science can investigate only what can be sensed or quantified, then there is no evidence for mind, which can be neither sensed nor quantified. But this means merely that Sagan is also making assumptions, of which he does not inform us, about the nature of evidence.


    Sagan’s phrase about man being an extremely complex array of molecules reminds me of another philosopher, Bertrand Russell, who wrote one of the most powerful passages in English literature defending the same view:


    That man is the product of causes that had no prevision of the end they were achieving; that his origin, his growth, his hopes and fears, his loves and beliefs, are but the out come of accidental collocations of atoms; that no fire, no heroism, no intensity of thought and feeling can preserve an individual life beyond the grave, that all the labors of the ages, all the devotion, all the inspiration, all the noonday brightness of human genius are destined to extinction in the vast death of the solar system, and the whole temple of man’s achievement inevitably be buried beneath the debris of a universe in ruins-all these things, if not quite beyond dispute, are yet so nearly certain, that no philosophy which rejects them can hope to stand. Only within the scaffolding of these truths, only on the firm foundation of unyielding despair, can the soul’s habitation henceforth be safely built....


    Brief and powerless is man’s life; on him and all his race the slow, sure doom falls pitiless and dark. Blind to good and evil, reckless of destruction, omnipotent matter rolls on its relentless way; for man, condemned today to lose his dearest, tomorrow himself to pass through the gate of dark ness, it remains only to cherish, ere yet the blow falls, the lofty thoughts that ennoble his little day.... Proudly defiant of the irresistible forces that tolerate, for a moment, his knowledge and his condemnation, to sustain alone, a weary but unyielding atlas, the world that his own ideals have fashioned despite the trampling march of unconscious power (Mysticism and Logic, 47-48, 56-57).


    Russell’s prose is magnificent-I have come across nothing nearly so good in Sagan-but the “truths” he believes are not true at all.


    Neither is Sagan’s behaviorism. For the triune God, Sagan has substituted what he calls “The Triune Brain” consisting of the reptilian complex, the limbic system, and the neocortex. Sagan believes the old mythology of Ernst Haeckel, the popularizer of evolutionary thought in Germany during the late nineteenth and early twentieth centuries, and whose books were bestsellers and laid the foundation for Nazism. One of Haeckel’s myths was that ontogeny recapitulates phylogeny. Sagan believes that “in human intrauterine development we run through stages very much like fish, reptiles and nonprimate mammals before we be come recognizably human. The fish stage even has gill slits, which are absolutely useless for the embryo who is nourished via the umbilical cord, but a necessity for human embryology: since gills were vital to our ancestors, we run through a gill stage in becoming human” (The Dragons of Eden, 59-60).


    But we are getting somewhat afield from Sagan’s behaviorism. Dr. Sagan believes that “consciousness and intelligence are the result of `mere’ matter sufficiently complexly arranged” (The Dragons of Eden, 221). “Each human being is a superbly constructed, astonishingly compact, self-ambulatory computer” (Broca’s Brain, 281). Speaking of him self, Sagan writes: “I am a collection of water, calcium and organic molecules called Carl Sagan. You are a collection of almost identical molecules with a different collective label. But is that all? Is there nothing in here but molecules? Some people find this idea somewhat demeaning to human dignity, for myself, I find it elevating that our universe permits the evolution of molecular machines as intricate and subtle as we” (Cosmos, 127). “A thought,” Dr. Sagan thinks, “is made of hundreds of electrochemical impulses” (Cosmos, 277).


    Upon discovering the brain of Paul Broca, the nineteenth-century French surgeon, in a bottle in the Musee De L’Homme in Paris, Sagan wondered “whether in some sense Broca was still in there-his wit, his skeptical mien, his abrupt gesticulations when he talked, his quiet and sentimental moments. Might there be preserved in the configuration of neurons before me a recollection of the triumphant moment when he argued before the combined medical faculties ... on the origins of aphasia? A dinner with his friend Victor Hugo? A stroll on a moonlit autumn evening? ... Where do we go when we die? Is Paul Broca still there in his formalin-filled bottle?” (Broca’s Brain, 10-11).


    These thoughts remind one of the delusions of savages who think that by eating the flesh of their enemies they will become like them. Scientists have performed innumerable experiments testing the cannibalistic theory of learning: since memory inheres in the chemistry of the brain, one can, by ingesting that chemistry, learn what others have known. Scientists use rats and planaria in their experiments; cannibals, of course, use people. Of course, this is not a refutation of behaviorism, merely an illustration of how primitive the modern scientist (or perhaps how advanced the unjustly maligned cannibal) is.


    A refutation of behaviorism can be derived from either the Bible or from logic. God, angels, and demons all think. None of them has brains or body. Christ and the thief on the cross went to paradise at death; their brains were lying in the ground in Palestine. Moses, whose brains had been buried somewhere in the Middle East more than a thousand years earlier, held a theological conversation with Christ at the transfiguration. These scriptural references ought to be sufficient to convince Christians that brains are not necessary for thinking. Unfortunately, Dr. Sagan does not believe that the Bible is true, so we will have to offer a more extended argument from logic. If he does not believe that logic is true, then there is no point in arguing with him at all; one ought rather to confine him to a soft room.


    Let’s assume that Dr. Sagan’s beliefs about mind and thought are true. Thoughts are, he thinks, “hundreds of electrochemical impulses” in the brain. What follows from this? First, error is impossible. One electrochemical impulse is as good as another. The chemistry in the brain of someone who thinks that behaviorism is false is as perfect as the chemistry in the brain of someone who thinks that behavior ism is true. If thoughts are electrochemical, then one thought, one chemical reaction, is as good as another. Why Sagan insists that his chemical reactions are right and mine are wrong is a complete mystery. “Wrong” has no meaning on behaviorist premises.


    It follows from the meaninglessness of error that behaviorists, in this case Dr. Sagan, cannot claim their assertions are true. Behaviorism makes truth equally meaningless. Truth is not a quality of electrochemical impulses. My rejection of behaviorism, that is, in Dr. Sagan’s terms, the electrochemical impulses in my brain, are chemically as good as his. Chemicals never err. Both his reactions and mine are solid chemistry. Both obey the inviolable laws of chemistry, which, Dr. Sagan has told us, are the same every where in the universe. Now if anyone, no matter how highly respected and decorated, proposes a theory that precludes the truth of the theory he proposes, he is involved in a hopeless contradiction and needs no further refutation. If he persists in asserting what cannot be true, he needs close and compassionate attention, rather than disputation.


    The situation is, however, somewhat worse than this initial consideration indicates. Not only does behaviorism eliminate truth, it eliminates memory and communication as well. If thoughts are electrochemical impulses, then they are specific datable events in the brain. They cannot be repeated. They occur and then they stop. Memory is impossible. A behaviorist might reply that we can have a similar thought later, that is, a similar electrochemical impulse can occur. But the behaviorist forgets (and hopes that we will forget as well) that according to behaviorism the thought of similarity is still another and still later electrochemical impulse, another dated event separated by time (and perhaps by space) from the first two chemical reactions. How can still a third electrochemical reaction connect the first two, which have already occurred and ended? How can a behaviorist tell whether two ideas are similar, if ideas are electrochemical impulses? Behaviorism makes comparison and memory impossible.


    It also makes communication impossible. Carl Sagan’s mind is a bundle of electrochemical impulses and reactions; and so is mine, according to Carl Sagan. Dr. Sagan has a thought, that is, his intracranial chemicals react in a certain way. But his brain’s electrochemical impulses cannot be my brain’s electrochemical impulses, any more than his toothache can be mine or my toothache his. Therefore, I can never know his thought. It is therefore impossible to tell what Dr. Sagan means by any of the thousands of propositions that he has written in his books and articles. And since behaviorism also destroys memory, Dr. Sagan himself has no idea what he wrote either. Perhaps his books mean nothing at all. Perhaps they are simply the debris left by a powerful and sudden electrochemical brainstorm.


    Behaviorism has been around for centuries, but the modern revival of some forms of Greek paganism has made it into one of the major superstitions of the twentieth century. Ernest Nagel, in his presidential address that I quoted above, said that it is one of the best-tested conclusions of experience. Gordon Clark has suggested that behaviorism be subjected to the same sort of test that other theories claiming to be scientific undergo. Einstein’s general theory of relativity predicted several events, such as the precession of the perihelion of Mercury and the deflection of starlight in the presence of large masses. Scientists could observe whether those events occurred as implied by Einstein’s theory. Let Dr. Sagan specify which electrochemical impulses in the brain are the thought “the Earth is 4.6 billion years old.” Let him tell us what the specific chemistry of astronomy, as distinguished from astrology, is. Let him specify how the surge of electrochemical impulses meaning “The opening chapters of the book of Genesis are mythological” differs from the spurt of electrochemical impulses meaning “The Bible alone, and the Bible in its entirety, is the word of God written and therefore inerrant in the autographs.” Let us see what empirical basis there is for the claim that thoughts are electrochemical impulses. I certainly hope Dr. Sagan’s brain is up to the task.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    It's the logical fallacy of the creator of all things "God", be it the determinist one or "free will" giving one.
    What fallacy is that?



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    If it follows from SF's view, then it follows from any view that admits that our choices are determined by antecedent causes.

    As far as I can tell, the only way out is to say that our choices just happen without cause.
    Not really. S-F is claiming that there is just one cause: God's will. There may, in fact, be many causes for one's actions, including one that he would deny the existence of: human volition.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Not really. S-F is claiming that there is just one cause: God's will. There may, in fact, be many causes for one's actions, including one that he would deny the existence of: human volition.
    I do subscribe to the occasionalist view that there is only one cause, but I am open to other views that allow for secondary causation.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Man does have a choice in the matter.
    If man can choose, than God isn't sovereign.

    Man loves his sin. Man WANTs to do his sin. You make it seem like man is trying to choose God and God is stopping them from doing it. That is not the case. Man wants to sin with his sinful will.
    No, what I'm saying is that in your view of God's sovereignty man wants to sin solely because God makes him have such a desire. Man acts on this desire and commits sin solely because God makes him sin.

    No it's not meaningless, because it distinguishes the Biblical position from the puppet analogy you keep trying to suggest. The difference between the two is: man's will.
    Man's will is a fiction if God controls everything. It is no more than a preprogrammed command that God inserted into his puppet.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What fallacy is that?
    Disobeying the creator of your mind.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    And this is the real interesting thing, because if we were to delve into Sonny's atheistic worldview, we would find what kind of determinist he really is...be it biological, behavioral, genetic, or what have you.

    This is because determinism is an inescapable concept. It is a feature of every worldview.
    No it isn't.

    http://www.goertzel.org/dynapsyc/2004/FreeWill.htm
    The Virtual Multiverse Theory of Free Will

    Ben Goertzel
    February 18, 2004



    Introduction

    This note presents a novel, system-theoretic explanation of the psychological phenomenon of “free will,” in terms of the dynamics and interactions of different parts of the brain. The theory integrates neuropsychological observations of Libet and Gazzaniga, but it also has a generality that extends beyond human brains to other forms of intelligence, including computational ones. The relationship of free will with the phenomenon of consciousness is also addressed.

    Virtual Multiverse Modeling and Free Will

    Suppose one has a world whose governing dynamic has a high Liapunov exponent (Devaney, 2003), so that a small region of state space at time t is dynamically mapped into a much larger region of state space at size t+s, even if s is small. Then, an intelligent system (let’s call it a “brain” for short, though it may be computational or biological), in order to plan for the future, must create a virtual multiverse inside itself: i.e. at time t it must model several different future states for time t+s, since it doesn’t know which future state will actually occur. It must create a virtual multiverse with branch-points regarding its own external actions, and its own internal events, as well as external events not directly caused by itself. This is what our brains do all the time.

    The notion of a “multiverse” here is motivated by quantum mechanics (DeWitt and Seligman, 1974). However, the theory I am proposing here is not a quantum theory of consciousness; it is compatible with both quantum and classical physics. What I mean by a multiverse is a model of reality like the one explored by Borges in his famous tale The Garden of Forking Paths (see Borges, 1999). Borges portrayed the world as consisting of pathways defining series of events, in which each pathway eventually reaches a decision-point at which it forks out into more than one future pathway. Borges’ “paths” are the “branches” of the mathematical “tree structures” used to model multiverses; and his decision points are the nodes or “branch-points” of the trees. Actual reality is then considered as a single “universe” which is a single series of events defined by following one series of branching-choices through the mathematical tree. The many-universes interpretation of quantum physics posits that the multiverse is physically real, even though we as individuals only see one universe; and that an act of quantum measurement consist of a choice of direction at a branching point in the multiverse tree. On the other hand, what I am hypothesizing here is that we perceive a psychologically real multiverse – independently of whether there is a real physical multiverse or not – and that free will has something to do (details to follow shortly) with the choice of directions at branch-points in this psychological multiverse.

    We know that the cognitive portions of brains do not directly experience the external universe; they only experience their own models of the external universe. This is demonstrated by many experiments regarding perceptual illusions, for example (Maturana and Varela, 1992). What this means is that, even if we should happen to live in a strictly deterministic universe[1], we subjectively live in a multiverse in which several different possible branches are subjectively real at any given time. But most of these branches are very short-lived: they exist only conjecturally while we wait for the next percepts which will tell us which of the branches is actualized.

    Furthermore, brains largely experience themselves only via their models of themselves. Brains, being complex systems, are hard to predict even for themselves, and so one part of a brain often must use a virtual multiverse to model another part.

    When a brain triggers a real-world action, this action occurs in the external universe, and then registers internally in the virtual multiverse which models the external universe. The brain is then aware of a process of “collapse” wherein the multiple branches of the virtual multiverse collapse to a single branch. Furthermore, this collapsing process occurs rapidly, within the same subjectively experienced moment as the actual event in the physical universe. Note that a subjectively experienced moment is not instantaneous.

    Similarly, when a part of a brain carries out an action, and another part of the intelligent system is modeling this first part using a virtual multiverse, then the action in the first part corresponds with a collapse to a single branch in the virtual multiverse contained in the second part.

    The special feeling of “free will” that we experience consists primarily of the subjectively-simultaneous consciousness of

    an event occurring in the external universe
    a collapse-to-a-single-branch occurring in the brain’s internal virtual multiverse

    or else the simultaneous consciousness of

    an event occurring in one part of the brain
    a collapse-to-a-single-branch occurring in the virtual multiverse used by another part of the brain to model the first part

    The subjective simultaneity is only present when the two things occur at almost the same physical time, which generally occurs only when the event in question is either internal, or else an external event that’s directly triggered by the brain itself.

    Libet (2000) has done experiments showing that, in many cases, the “decision” to carry out an action occurs after the neural signals directly triggering the action have already occurred. This observation fits in perfectly with the virtual multiverse theory. Note that this time interval is sufficiently short that the action and the decision occur within the same subjectively experienced moment. In fact, Libet’s results, though often presented as counterintuitive, are explained naturally by the current theory – it’s the opposite result, that perceived-virtual-multiverse-collapses occurred after the corresponding actions, that would be more problematic for the current theory.

    Dennett (2003) analyzes Libet’s results by positing that free will is a distributed experience which occurs over an expanse of time (the experienced moment) and a number of different brain systems, and that there is nothing paradoxical about the part of this experience labeled “decision” occurring minutely before the part of this experience labeled “action trigger.” I agree with Dennett’s general observations – and with most of his comments about free will – but I am aiming to achieve a greater level of precision in my analysis of the phenomenon.

    For example, suppose I am trying to decide whether to kiss my beautiful neighbor. One part of my brain is involved in a dynamic which will actually determine whether I kiss her or not. Another part of my brain is modeling that first part, and doesn’t know what’s going to happen. A virtual multiverse occurs in this second part of the brain, one branch in which I kiss her, the other in which I don’t. Finally, the first part comes to a conclusion; and the second part collapses its virtual multiverse model almost instantly thereafter.

    The brain uses these virtual multiverse models to plan for multiple contingencies, so that it is prepared in advance, no matter what may happen. In the case that one part of the brain is modeling another part of the brain, sometimes the model produced by the second part may affect the actions taken by the first part. For instance, the part (call it B) modeling the action of kissing my neighbor may come to the conclusion that the branch in which I carry out the action is a bad one. This may affect the part (call it A) actually determining whether to carry out the kiss, causing the kiss not to occur. The dynamic in A which causes the kiss not to occur, is then reflected in B as a collapse in its virtual multiverse model of A.

    Now, suppose that the timing of these two causal effects (from B to A and from A to B) is different. Suppose that the effect of B on A (of the model on the action) takes a while to happen (spanning several subjective moments), whereas the effect of A and B (of the action on the model) is nearly instantaneous (occurring within a single subjective moment). Then, another part of the brain, C, may record the fact that a collapse to definiteness in B’s virtual multiverse model of A, preceded an action in A. On the other hand, the other direction of causality, in which the action in A caused a collapse in B’s model of A, may be so fast that no other part of the brain notices that this was anything but simultaneous. In this case, various parts of the brain may gather the mistaken impression that virtual multiverse collapse causes actions; when in fact it’s the other way around. This, I conjecture, is the origin of our mistaken impression that we make “decisions” that cause our actions.

    The “illusion” of free will, therefore, consists largely of a mistaken impression gathered by some parts of the brain about the ordering of events in other parts of the brain. It consists of a confusion between two different roles played by virtual multiverse models:

    assisting in the determination of actions (which happens sometimes, and with a significant time lag)
    registering already-occurred actions (which happens more often, and almost instantaneously)

    Because in the former, multiple-subjective-moment case, virtual multiverse collapse precedes action-determination, the brain mistakenly infers that in the latter, single-subjective-moment case, virtual multiverse collapse also precedes action-determination. But in fact, in the latter case virtual multiverse collapse follows action-determination.

    However, it is not an illusion or confusion that virtual multiverse modeling has an impact on actions taken in the brain. This kind of modeling is clearly a very valuable part of brain dynamics, due to the complex and hard-to-predict nature of the brain and world. Virtual multiverse modeling is necessary due to practical indeterminism within and outside the brain, which exists whether or not fundamental indeterminism does. It is necessary because internal and external events are often indeterministic from the subjective perspective of particular, useful parts of the brain. Furthermore, and critically, the brain as a whole is often indeterministic from its own perspective.


    Confabulation

    Another side of free will is the “confabulative” aspect emphasized by Michael Gazzaniga in his discussions of his famous split-brain experiments. These experiments demonstrate that, even when there is a clear external cause of a human taking some action, it is possible for the human to sincerely and thoroughly believe that the cause was some completely internal decision that they took. The left hemisphere of a split brain has no experience of stimuli delivered exclusively to the right hemisphere (e.g. through the left eye). However, the left hemisphere has such a strong motivation to create explanations that it will make up “free will stories” corresponding to behaviors initiated by the isolated right hemisphere. For example, in one experiment, a split brain subject's left eye received a command to stand. The person stood – and then, when asked why she stood up, she responded (using the language center of her left hemisphere) that she wanted a soda. In another experiment, when the left and right hemispheres were each asked to pick an appropriate picture to accord with an image flashed only to that hemisphere, the left selected a chicken to match the chicken claw in the picture it saw, while the right hemisphere correctly chose a shovel to remove the snow it saw. When asked why the person chose those images, he replied that the claw was for the chicken, and the shovel was to clean out the shed (Gazzaniga, 1989).

    Confabulation means that, when a certain branch in the virtual multiverse has been chosen, the brain looks for reasons why it was chosen. If no immediate reasons are available, it will use inference to create reasons. Often these inferences will be accurate; sometimes they will be erroneous. Split brain surgery creates a situation in which erroneous inference of this nature are much more common than usual. It happens that in humans this explanation-generating inference tends to take place in the left brain hemisphere; but the same post-facto explanation-generating dynamic may be expected to exist in nonhuman intelligences as well, regardless of whether their brains display any hemispheric dichotomy.

    Confabulation adds a third aspect to virtual multiverse dynamics: not only do virtual multiverse inferences/simulations affect actions, and actions cause updating of virtual multiverse simulations; but also, reasoning about actions causes inferred stories to be attached to the memories of virtual-multiverse collapses.

    Consciousness

    Finally, the present theory of free will also partially addresses the phenomenon of consciousness. Some aspects of consciousness can be understood by thinking about the virtual multiverse models that parts of the brain construct, in order to model the brain as a whole. These virtual multiverse models are used to help guide the dynamics of the whole brain (on a slow time scale), and they are also continually updated to reflect the actual dynamics of the brain (on a faster time scale, occurring within a single subjective moment). The feeling of consciousness is in part the feeling of events in the whole brain being rapidly reflected in the changes in the virtual multiverse models maintained in parts of the brain … and these changes then causing further virtual-multiverse-model changes which then feed back to change the state of the whole brain again … etc. The conscious feeling of the flow of time is actually a feeling of continual ongoing branch-selection in the virtual multiverse model of the whole brain – the feeling of briefly-explored possible futures being left by the wayside as the actualized futures are registered in the model.

    Dennett (1992) analyzed human consciousness as a serial computer running as a virtual machine on top of a parallel computer (the “parallel computer” being the unconscious, which comprises the majority of brain function). However, I don’t think this is quite right. Rather, I think human consciousness has to do with the feedback between virtual multiverse modeler software (embodied in various parts of the brain) and massively parallel software (the rest of the brain). The virtual universe modeler software is not exactly a serial computation process, it may well explore multiple branches in parallel.

    The virtual-multiverse theory of free will does not explicitly solve the “hard problem of consciousness” (Chalmers, 1997), the relationship between subjective awareness (“qualia”) and physical phenomena. However, it does fit in naturally with a particular hypothetical solution to the hard problem. Suppose one accepts, as a solution to the hard problem, the postulate that a quale occurs when a system comes to display a pattern that it did not display a moment before; and the more prominent patterns correspond to the more intense qualia.[2] Then, it follows from the present theory of free will that intense qualia will tend to be correlated with significant activity in the whole-brain virtual multiverse modeler. This provides an explanation for the oft-perceived correlation between consciousness and free will (free will also often being associated with significant activity in the whole-brain virtual multiverse modeler).

    Conclusion

    What I have proposed here is a conceptual model of free will in terms of virtual multiverse modeling, but it also leads to some specific empirical predictions. Study of the human brain, as brain imaging improves, should allow us to localize the brain’s multiverse modeling faculties (assuming these exist, as I hypothesize), and then to study whether the dynamics of interaction between these faculties and the rest of the brain are indeed as I have hypothesized. Regarding artificial intelligence, the hypothesis made is that if an AI program is created with a virtual-multiverse-modeling faculty that is embedded into its overall dynamic process in a manner roughly similar to how this embedding occurs in the human mind/brain, then the AI will describe its decision-making experiences in roughly the same way that humans describe their experience of free will.


    References

    · Borges, Jorge Luis (1999). Collected Fictions. Viking.
    · Chalmers, David (1997). The Conscious Mind. Oxford University Press.
    · Dennett, Daniel (1992). Consciousness Explained. Back Bay Books.
    · Dennett, Daniel (2003). Freedom Evolves. Viking.
    · Devaney, Robert (2003). An Introduction to Chaotic Dynamical Systems. Westview Press.
    · Dewitt, Bryce and C. Seligman (1974). The Many-Worlds Interpretation of Quantum Mechanics. Princeton University Press.
    · Gazzaniga, Michael (1989). "Organization of the Human Brain," Science, Sept., pp. 947-956
    · Libet, B., A. Freeman and K. Sutherland (2000). The Volitional Brain: Towards a Neuroscience of Free Will. Imprint Academic.
    · Maturana, Humberto and Francisco Varela (1992). The Tree of Knowledge. Shambhala.
    · Peirce, Charles S. (1982). Collected Works Volume 5. Indiana University Press.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Not really. S-F is claiming that there is just one cause: God's will. There may, in fact, be many causes for one's actions, including one that he would deny the existence of: human volition.
    But what causes human volition to be what it is? It must be something, or, as you suggest some conglomeration of things. But unless our choices just happen without cause, they're still predetermined. If that fact makes us puppets, then what's your way out?

    Or maybe that fact doesn't make us puppets.

    Or do you want to say that our choices being predetermined only makes us puppets if God is the ultimate cause, but not if something else is?

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    As far as I can tell, the only way out is to say that our choices just happen without cause.
    Or to recognize that choices create alternate realities.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Or to recognize that choices create alternate realities.
    How is that a way out?

    The choices are still either caused or uncaused.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    Not really. S-F is claiming that there is just one cause: God's will. There may, in fact, be many causes for one's actions, including one that he would deny the existence of: human volition.
    By the way, singular causation does not deny human volition. You just have to let the Bible define it's own position.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by robert68 View Post
    Disobeying the creator of your mind.
    There is a difference between God's commands and God's decree. We've been over this several times.

  31. #27
    As men, we can create coffee cups. They are vessels to serve our desire. The cup has no will, desire, or obstinance in our desire for it. If and when we desire to make use of the cup, it will serve our will. As his creation, God has a will for each of us; however, we each have will and desire of our own. Sometimes this will is pleasing to God, sometimes not. As far as to why man would be created by God having a will, that frequently runs obstinate to this will of God, I, as well as most if they were being honest, don't really have a "good" answer. I can only refer to the scripture Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. :9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    1 Corenthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. :10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    Considering man has went to the moon, sent men to live in space stations, and sent robots to return images from Mars, this above verse is especially exciting news for those who love God. "...neither have entered into the heart of man...." That seems really spectacular considering the things that have entered the heart of man.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Sonny Tufts View Post
    If man can choose, than God isn't sovereign.
    I wasn't planning to get into this discussion, but I just wanted to say a couple things.

    It is incorrect to say that because man has a choice, God is not sovereign.

    We have the ability to make choices, but we don't have control over the ultimate consequences.


    No, what I'm saying is that in your view of God's sovereignty man wants to sin solely because God makes him have such a desire. Man acts on this desire and commits sin solely because God makes him sin.
    He is wrong on this. (If that indeed is his position.)


    Man's will is a fiction if God controls everything. It is no more than a preprogrammed command that God inserted into his puppet.
    Contrary to what a couple people here seem to believe, we are not puppets and God did not pre-program us to do evil.

    There's a difference between creating us with the ability (option) to do wrong and creating us to do wrong. The latter makes God evil. The former is the reality, and although people abuse that free will, which results in evil.... that is the price for what God wants - genuine love and willing obedience. Not robots who were pre-programmed to love and obey Him.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Leaning Libertarian View Post
    As men, we can create coffee cups. They are vessels to serve our desire. The cup has no will, desire, or obstinance in our desire for it. If and when we desire to make use of the cup, it will serve our will. As his creation, God has a will for each of us; however, we each have will and desire of our own. Sometimes this will is pleasing to God, sometimes not. As far as to why man would be created by God having a will, that frequently runs obstinate to this will of God, I, as well as most if they were being honest, don't really have a "good" answer. I can only refer to the scripture Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. :9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.

    1 Corenthians 2:9 But as it is written, Eye hath not seen, nor ear heard, neither have entered into the heart of man, the things which God hath prepared for them that love him. :10 But God hath revealed them unto us by his Spirit: for the Spirit searcheth all things, yea, the deep things of God.

    Considering man has went to the moon, sent men to live in space stations, and sent robots to return images from Mars, this above verse is especially exciting news for those who love God. "...neither have entered into the heart of man...." That seems really spectacular considering the things that have entered the heart of man.

    Actually, that verse says that God has revealed to His people those things that no eye has seen or ear has heard:

    However, as it is written:

    “What no eye has seen,
    what no ear has heard,
    and what no human mind has conceived” —

    the things God has prepared for those who love him—

    these are the things God has revealed to us by his Spirit.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I wasn't planning to get into this discussion, but I just wanted to say a couple things.

    It is incorrect to say that because man has a choice, God is not sovereign.

    We have the ability to make choices, but we don't have control over the ultimate consequences.




    He is wrong on this. (If that indeed is his position.)




    Contrary to what a couple people here seem to believe, we are not puppets and God did not pre-program us to do evil.

    There's a difference between creating us with the ability (option) to do wrong and creating us to do wrong. The latter makes God evil. The former is the reality, and although people abuse that free will, which results in evil.... that is the price for what God wants - genuine love and willing obedience. Not robots who were pre-programmed to love and obey Him.
    Where in the Bible, when the Bible describes man's will, does it say that it is free?

    I know several places where the Bible describes man's will as a slave of sin, but where is the verse that says it is free?

Page 1 of 12 12311 ... LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 08-14-2013, 05:51 PM
  2. CFR Applauds European Union's "Real Subversion of Sovereignty"
    By FrankRep in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 04-23-2013, 05:48 PM
  3. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 10-14-2012, 07:43 PM
  4. Maine town becomes first in the nation to pass "Food Sovereignty" law
    By hillbilly123069 in forum U.S. Constitution
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 03-18-2011, 02:25 PM
  5. Replies: 11
    Last Post: 10-02-2008, 08:19 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •