Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast
Results 61 to 90 of 148

Thread: Rand Paul - Defense Spending Bill

  1. #61
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    He wasn't even proposing more military spending. He didn't bring the subject up. He just did the hard work, then came back and said, okay, if this is what you want, here's how we can do it affordably without making our debt worse.
    I hear you. Someone proposed an increase in military spending without any offsetting cuts. Rand called their bluff and proposed even more military spending, but fully offset by spending cuts. Hence I consider Rand's call for increased military spending a rhetorical ploy of sorts (I don't think Rand actually wants more military spending). But my point to Vitus was that, even if it were a real proposal, it doesn't follow that Rand's calling for any new military intervention: and so my point above about military spending being relatively less harmful than regulatory spending holds.
    Last edited by r3volution 3.0; 03-26-2015 at 02:15 PM.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    Might want to specify that in the thread's title then because a lot of people don't read further

    I am not brilliant by any stretch of the imagination. But it is clear to anyone with a functioning brain that this vote was meant to show how little appetite there is to cut anything. It established Rand as both a fiscal conservative and someone who cares about defense and it got Rubio and Cruz on the record showing that they aren't willing to a make a tough decision to cut. It got four votes for a reason. And the other three people who voted for it were people Rand has endorsed and done political favors for.

    Complaining about good votes and good strategic decisions is maddening. I can't even begin to understand why someone would object to this.

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by Krugminator2 View Post
    I am not brilliant by any stretch of the imagination. But it is clear to anyone with a functioning brain that this vote was meant to show how little appetite there is to cut anything.
    That's not really true. The media kept saying Rand was proposing an increase to military spending / is now more hawkish without any context of the alternative.


  5. #64
    This is kind of off topic but not really, I suppose. What do you guys think about Ted being on the science/tech board? Or heading up aspects of that. i'm not looking to debate it or anything. I'm just wondering about thoughts on that.

    I've kept my mouth shut in large about it. I think I only mentioned him briefly there in the BRIC Summit thread. Ultimately, it was about defense/military spending and all that goes with that, though.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 03-26-2015 at 02:52 PM.



  6. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  7. #65
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    That's not really true. The media kept saying Rand was proposing an increase to military spending / is now more hawkish without any context of the alternative.
    It's just begun. The vote was today. He will clarify on all the shows on the 'morrow. That's how he has played everything so far. I cringed when he brought up Hillary taking funds for the foundation from oppressive regimes. I just knew a reporter would bring up Ron taking money from white supremacists. Sure enough they did. He countered by saying if the media was so interested in his father taking money then why aren't they questioning Hillary. Or something to that affect. He has a way of throwing things back at people.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Havax View Post
    He should really stay away from the climate change thing. He will lose all independent votes.

    Time and time again, "Climate change" consistently ranks at the very bottom of issues that people give a $#@! about.

    The only reason why you and others think otherwise is because democrats and Al Gore won't shut the hell up about it.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by Jeremy View Post
    That's not really true. The media kept saying Rand was proposing an increase to military spending / is now more hawkish without any context of the alternative.
    And he's still going to be hit in debates with the isolationist and military gutting labels.

    People can say he'll have an answer all they want, but if you're explaining why your opponent is wrong rather than why you're right, you're losing in a debate.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    And he's still going to be hit in debates with the isolationist and military gutting labels.
    And it's not going to stick because he is going to throw it back at them. He is going to say that they voted for less funding over his plan. He is going to turn the screw by saying that they aren't fiscal conservatives because his bill would have required cuts to social programs.

    Answered before the addendum:

    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    People can say he'll have an answer all they want, but if you're explaining why your opponent is wrong rather than why you're right, you're losing in a debate.
    Disagree. He'll explain why they were wrong while still explaining why he was right.
    Last edited by phill4paul; 03-26-2015 at 03:15 PM.

  11. #69
    "The Gist" of Rand Paul's Controversial Defense Budget Amendment 940

    Sen. Rand Paul (R-Ky.) submitted a budget amendment calling for increased defense spending in fiscal years 2016 and 2017. As Time originally reported, the amendment called for increasing spending by a total of about $190 billion over those two years, or a 16 percent increase over current totals.

    While the specific language of the amendment is not yet available, the senator's office has sent me the following summary of its provisions:

    Background information on Paul Amdt 940:

    Sen. Paul has offered an amendment to increase the levels of national defense spending (budget function 050) in both 2016 and 2017. The levels reflect the projected FY2016 levels, before BCA caps became law.

    Amdt. 940 will increase, defense spending by nearly $190 billion over the next two years. This amendment continues to fulfill the President’s OCO request and mandatory defense spending.

    In the proposed amendment, Sen. Paul provides an increase in defense spending with offsets from the following accounts:

    • $21 billion from Foreign Assistance accounts (budget 150 function)
    • $14 billion from the National Science Foundation and Climate Change research under the General Science, Space, and Technology (budget 250 function)
    • $10 billion total from the Environmental Protection Agency and Department of Commerce activities under Natural Resources and Environment (Budget 300 function) and Commerce and Housing Credits (Budget 370 function)
    • $20 billion from Department of Education
    • $41 billion in discretionary spending from the Department of Housing and Urban Development

    These reductions would occur in both FY2016 and FY2017.

    Those cuts in other areas come to $106 billion annually. According to the senator's office, the key gesture here is to pay for the increased spending by cuts made elsewhere in the budget.

    That's something that other Republican proposals fail to do. As senior advisor Doug Stafford wrote me earlier today:

    This amendment is to lay down a marker that if you believe we need more funding for national defense, you should show how you would pay for it. We can't just keep borrowing more money from China to send to Pakistan. And we can't keep paying for even vital things like national defense on a credit card.

    Mercatus Center, Veronique de RugyMercatus Center, Veronique de RugySen. Marco Rubio (R-Fla.) has proposed an amendment to increase spending by about the same amount as Paul's, but Rubio's plan specifies no offsets in spending, says Bloomberg Politics' Erik Wasson. Like Paul, Rubio is a presumptive candidate for the GOP presidential nomination. According to various reports, declared candidate Sen. Ted Cruz (R-Texas) has signed on to Rubio's plan and voted for its passage.

    So in this narrow sense, one can see meaningful difference between Paul and his fellow Senate colleagues: He is willing to pay for increases in defense spending by stipulating cuts elsewhere. And it's worth pointing out that his insistence on trimming foreign aid by $21 billion has already raised the ire of the American Israel Public Affairs Committee (AIPAC).

    Yes, it's great news that Paul is serious about debt and deficit in a way that escapes Cruz and Rubio—and virtually all Republicans, especially when it comes to Pentagon spending.

    Gallup, Feb. 2015Gallup, Feb. 2015But there remains a serious question about reducing the size, scope, and spending of government. Real federal outlays spiked massively under George W. Bush and a Republican Congress. They spiked under Bush and a Democratic Congress too. They spiked even more under Barack Obama and a Democratic Congress and then flattened temporarily not out of any commitment to restraint but because of government incompetency. Expenditures are back on their way up, as both parties have constituents they want to reward after the briefest of timeouts.

    In this context, Rand Paul's full-throated argument for reducing federal spending overall and specifically on defense was nothing less than exceptional (that it was clearly in tune with the vox populi is less important). It's true that popular opinion toward U.S. military spending and involvement around the world shifted last fall in response to the beheadings of Americans by the Islamic State, aggressive actions by Vladimir Putin, and a bizarre turn of events that has the United States effectively fighting side by side with Iran and Syria in Iraq. The war impulse is especially strong among Republicans, of whom 56 percent say the U.S. is "spending too little" on defense. In Congress and the op-ed pages of the country, there is no shortage of right-wing hawks who want to see the U.S. flex its muscles in the Middle East, Russia, and elsewhere.
    ...
    Rand Paul has captured the imagination of a large and growing number of conservatives (many of whom are also questioning the wisdom of being on a permanent war footing), libertarians and libertarian-leaning Republicans, younger people, and even liberals and Democrats precisely by speaking truth to the war power. Because of that, he will always be suspect to armchair warriors of the right who never think twice about sending young men and women to soak the ground of far-flung countries with their blood, or who never pause to break the back of the American economy in the pursuit of the next F-35 boondoggle.

    It's to Rand Paul's immense credit that he, alone among even his Tea Party compatriots who were sent to the Senate to reduce federal spending, wants to pay for any and all increases in defense spending.
    ...
    More: http://reason.com/blog/2015/03/26/br...pauls-controve
    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  12. #70
    Doug Stafford wrote me earlier today:

    This amendment is to lay down a marker that if you believe we need more funding for national defense, you should show how you would pay for it. We can't just keep borrowing more money from China to send to Pakistan. And we can't keep paying for even vital things like national defense on a credit card.
    I've heard that line before....somewhere.

  13. #71
    Chill out guys, the vote was lost something like 4-96, Rand knew it wasn't going to pass, he introduced a more fiscally conservative amendment anyone else and even got Cruz and Rubio to vote no. He's going to be able to use this in interviews and debates.
    THE SQUAD of RPF
    1. enhanced_deficit - Paid Troll / John Bolton book promoter
    2. Devil21 - LARPing Wizard, fake magical script reader
    3. Firestarter - Tax Troll; anti-tax = "criminal behavior"
    4. TheCount - Comet Pizza Pedo Denier <-- sick

    @Ehanced_Deficit's real agenda on RPF =troll:

    Who spends this much time copy/pasting the same recycled links, photos/talking points.

    7 yrs/25k posts later RPF'ers still respond to this troll

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by eleganz View Post
    Chill out guys...
    Nobody's agitated but the agitators. And it isn't in their nature to chill.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.



  15. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    That's funny. I'm probably the least Rand fan here and I'm fine with it. I think it was an excellent political maneuver that will benefit him in the primaries.
    I agree. I'd have rather him just done nothing though, from a philosophical perspective.

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by eleganz View Post
    Chill out guys, the vote was lost something like 4-96, Rand knew it wasn't going to pass, he introduced a more fiscally conservative amendment anyone else and even got Cruz and Rubio to vote no. He's going to be able to use this in interviews and debates.
    If you know something isn't going to pass and only get a handful of votes, why compromise to such a degree? Might as well introduce cuts in both if you know that's going to happen.

    If Rand wanted something that could have at least made a little noise, he could have introduced an amendment that raises military spending by the amount they're requesting, but call for a greater amount of cuts. It'd be a smaller swing, much smaller in both directions than he called for, and more likely to receive more support.

    If we're going to pretend that Rand still won't be repeatedly attacked in debates, the media, etc for being an anti-military isolationist, there are going to be a lot of disappointed and angry people here come primary season.
    Quote Originally Posted by Ron Paul
    Perhaps the most important lesson from Obamacare is that while liberty is lost incrementally, it cannot be regained incrementally. The federal leviathan continues its steady growth; sometimes boldly and sometimes quietly. Obamacare is just the latest example, but make no mistake: the statists are winning. So advocates of liberty must reject incremental approaches and fight boldly for bedrock principles.
    The epitome of libertarian populism

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    If you know something isn't going to pass and only get a handful of votes, why compromise to such a degree? Might as well introduce cuts in both if you know that's going to happen.
    Because it's a better troll to introduce something they can in no way deny they and their whole philosophy consider reasonable.

    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    If we're going to pretend that Rand still won't be repeatedly attacked in debates, the media, etc for being an anti-military isolationist, there are going to be a lot of disappointed and angry people here come primary season.
    I'll be disappointed if he doesn't. If they never open the door for him to use this brilliant troll against them, that would be a real shame.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    If you know something isn't going to pass and only get a handful of votes, why compromise to such a degree? Might as well introduce cuts in both if you know that's going to happen.

    If Rand wanted something that could have at least made a little noise, he could have introduced an amendment that raises military spending by the amount they're requesting, but call for a greater amount of cuts. It'd be a smaller swing, much smaller in both directions than he called for, and more likely to receive more support.

    If we're going to pretend that Rand still won't be repeatedly attacked in debates, the media, etc for being an anti-military isolationist, there are going to be a lot of disappointed and angry people here come primary season.
    He basically did this. The amounts or extremes may vary by taste. He was never going to receive support. For the establishment he is the man to beat. He knew this.

    He will be attacked. He's anticipating it. And with this he will cram protestations down their throats. On national T.V.

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    He will be attacked. He's anticipating it. And with this he will cram protestations down their throats. On national T.V.
    He is setting up the chessboard so every attack can be immediately redirected against them. He is turning all their pawns into boomerangs, itching to smack the person who threw it upside the head.

    This is going to be fun!
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Feeding the Abscess View Post
    If you know something isn't going to pass and only get a handful of votes, why compromise to such a degree? Might as well introduce cuts in both if you know that's going to happen.

    If Rand wanted something that could have at least made a little noise, he could have introduced an amendment that raises military spending by the amount they're requesting, but call for a greater amount of cuts. It'd be a smaller swing, much smaller in both directions than he called for, and more likely to receive more support.

    If we're going to pretend that Rand still won't be repeatedly attacked in debates, the media, etc for being an anti-military isolationist, there are going to be a lot of disappointed and angry people here come primary season.
    I don't really want it to seem like I'm apologizing for Rand but I would assume he raised it to the number that he did was because Rubio and Cruz did the exact same thing. Rand showed that he could raise the budget to the same amount while at the same time slashing the overall budget. His budget was better than theirs and they voted against it.

    Its going to look real good when he can throw it in their faces on national tv.

    Rand will be attacked, point blank, we all should accept this and I'm sure he already has accepted it. Its better that he have a prepared response for his attacks rather than just sit there being called an isolationist with no real tangible evidence to say the contrary.

    You can dodge all day but having a counter punch is the only way to defeat your enemy.
    Last edited by eleganz; 03-26-2015 at 04:05 PM.
    THE SQUAD of RPF
    1. enhanced_deficit - Paid Troll / John Bolton book promoter
    2. Devil21 - LARPing Wizard, fake magical script reader
    3. Firestarter - Tax Troll; anti-tax = "criminal behavior"
    4. TheCount - Comet Pizza Pedo Denier <-- sick

    @Ehanced_Deficit's real agenda on RPF =troll:

    Who spends this much time copy/pasting the same recycled links, photos/talking points.

    7 yrs/25k posts later RPF'ers still respond to this troll

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by r3volution 3.0 View Post
    As for the politics of it:

    Originally Posted by Brett85
    I disagree. I think it gives him cover when Rubio claims that Rand wants to cut defense spending and is weak on defense. Rand can just point to this and say, "I believe in a strong national defense, but I also believe in balanced budgets and fiscal responsibility. If we're going to increase defense spending, then we should pay for it through cuts to other areas. Marco Rubio thinks it's more important to give money to Pakistan than to invest money on our military and defense infrastructure."
    Bingo

    He's putting himself in a position where he can attack the war-hawks for reckless spending, but they can't counter by calling him weak on defense.

    It's a beautiful thing to behold.
    This.

    Replace Rand with Obama, and the media would be praising him on TV and unleashing a wave of articles explaining why this vote was such a "brilliant" ploy from a purely political perspective and how it proves that "Rand is the smartest politician in the room".
    Last edited by WD-NY; 03-26-2015 at 07:48 PM.

  23. #80
    I think its genius.. "I am for strong defense but the difference is that I want to pay for it with something besides more debt"
    The ultimate minority is the individual. Protect the individual from Democracy and you will protect all groups of individuals
    Rightful liberty is unobstructed action according to our will within limits drawn around us by the equal rights of others. I do not add 'within the limits of the law' because law is often but the tyrant's will, and always so when it violates the rights of the individual. - Thomas Jefferson
    I must not fear. Fear is the mind-killer. Fear is the little-death that brings total obliteration. I will face my fear. I will permit it to pass over me and through me. And when it has gone past I will turn the inner eye to see its path. Where the fear has gone there will be nothing. Only I will remain.

    - Bene Gesserit Litany Against Fear



  24. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    This. Trollish behavior is normal behavior except without a few little niceties and moments of thoughtfulness, and a tad more honesty.
    I just used the title of the article in the thread title. That's "trollish" behavior? I knew that someone else would eventually post it anyway, and I wanted to post it with the bolded part so that people would understand what he was doing.

  26. #82
    My bad. I realized just now that I didn't even include the link. I thought that I had included it.

  27. #83
    He just got Cruz to vote no on reducing overall spending.

    Mr Tea Party himself.

    I don't see where the problem is.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    He just got Cruz to vote no on reducing overall spending.

    Mr Tea Party himself.

    I don't see where the problem is.
    Not just overall spending. He got him to vote against cuts to the EPA, global warming research, the dept of education, the dept of urban housing and development...
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  29. #85
    Rand was clearly trying to make a point and Cruz went for it. How can you claim to be a fiscal conservative if you aren't willing to off-set spending increases?

  30. #86
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeman View Post
    Rand was clearly trying to make a point and Cruz went for it. How can you claim to be a fiscal conservative if you aren't willing to off-set spending increases?
    Rand had him either way. If Cruz supported Rand's amendment then he would have been following Rand's leadership. It would have been the less damaging course but it still would have been a score for Rand.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Rand had him either way. If Cruz supported Rand's amendment then he would have been following Rand's leadership. It would have been the less damaging course but it still would have been a score for Rand.
    This is the man I want facing down Putin.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by tsai3904 View Post



    That last line is very important:

    McConnell backs Paul.
    Brawndo's got what plants crave. Its got electrolytes.



    H. L. Mencken said it best:


    “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.”


    "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."



  33. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  34. #89
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    He just got Cruz to vote no on reducing overall spending.

    Mr Tea Party himself.

    I don't see where the problem is.
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Not just overall spending. He got him to vote against cuts to the EPA, global warming research, the dept of education, the dept of urban housing and development...
    A thing of absolute beauty.
    Brawndo's got what plants crave. Its got electrolytes.



    H. L. Mencken said it best:


    “Democracy is the theory that the common people know what they want, and deserve to get it good and hard.”


    "As democracy is perfected, the office of president represents, more and more closely, the inner soul of the people. On some great and glorious day the plain folks of the land will reach their heart's desire at last and the White House will be adorned by a downright moron."

  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by francisco View Post
    A thing of absolute beauty.
    Cruz agrees with Bernie Sanders that Rand's proposed cuts "would be devastating to middle class families." Cruz/Sanders 2016!

Page 3 of 5 FirstFirst 12345 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Was Rand Paul's defense spending bill a good play?
    By Saint Vitus in forum Political Philosophy & Government Policy
    Replies: 50
    Last Post: 12-03-2016, 04:58 AM
  2. Replies: 0
    Last Post: 02-06-2013, 02:56 PM
  3. Replies: 85
    Last Post: 10-13-2012, 02:14 AM
  4. Replies: 3
    Last Post: 01-26-2011, 06:17 PM
  5. Time to protest the defense spending bill.
    By Pepsi in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 3
    Last Post: 07-18-2009, 08:11 AM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •