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Thread: Crimeans Keep Saying No to Ukraine

  1. #1

    Crimeans Keep Saying No to Ukraine

    -interesting article to read after reading the latest article put out by the RonPaulInstitute saying: "Now titled H. Res. 162, the bill demands that President Obama send lethal military equipment to the US-backed government in Kiev and makes it clear that the weapons are to be used to take military action to return Crimea and parts of eastern Ukraine to Kiev's rule."


    ----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------


    Crimeans Keep Saying No to Ukraine


    March 22, 2015
    By Robert Parry

    Exclusive: In a rare moment of honesty, a Western news outlet, Forbes, admits that the people of Crimea expressed their legitimate will in last year’s referendum when they voted to abandon Ukraine and rejoin Russia, an inconvenient truth for the U.S. State Department and press corps, writes Robert Parry.

    By Robert Parry

    A central piece of the West’s false narrative on the Ukraine crisis has been that Russian President Vladimir Putin “invaded” Crimea and then staged a “sham” referendum purporting to show 96 percent support for leaving Ukraine and rejoining Russia. More recently, Assistant Secretary of State Victoria Nuland claimed that Putin has subjected Crimea to a “reign of terror.”

    Both elements have been part of the “group think” that dominates U.S. political and media circles, but this propagandistic storyline simply isn’t true, especially the part about the Crimeans being subjugated by Russia.

    Consistently, over the past year, polls conducted by major Western firms have revealed that the people of Crimea by overwhelming numbers prefer being part of Russia over Ukraine, an embarrassing reality that Forbes business magazine has now acknowledged.

    An article by Kenneth Rapoza, a Forbes specialist on developing markets, cited these polls as showing that the Crimeans do not want the United States and the European Union to force them back into an unhappy marriage with Ukraine. “The Crimeans are happy right where they are” with Russia, Rapoza wrote.

    “One year after the annexation of the Ukrainian peninsula in the Black Sea, poll after poll shows that the locals there — be they Ukrainians, ethnic Russians or Tartars are all in agreement: life with Russia is better than life with Ukraine,” he wrote, adding that “the bulk of humanity living on the Black Sea peninsula believe the referendum to secede from Ukraine was legit.”

    Rapoza noted that a June 2014 Gallup poll, which was sponsored by the U.S. government’s Broadcasting Board of Governors, found that 82.8 percent of Crimeans said the March 16 referendum on secession reflected the views of the Crimean people. In the poll, when asked if joining Russia would improve their lives, 73.9 percent said yes and only 5.5 percent said no.

    A February 2015 poll by German polling firm GfK found similar results. When Crimeans were asked “do you endorse Russia’s annexation of Crimea,” 93 percent gave a positive response, with 82 percent saying, “yes, definitely.” Only 2 percent said no, with the remainder unsure or not answering.


    In other words, the West’s insistence that Russia must return Crimea to Ukraine would mean violating the age-old U.S. principle of a people’s right of self-determination. It would force the largely ethnic Russian population of Crimea to submit to a Ukrainian government that many Crimeans view as illegitimate, the result of a violent U.S.-backed coup on Feb. 22, 2014, that ousted elected President Viktor Yanukovych.

    The coup touched off a brutal civil war in which the right-wing regime in Kiev dispatched neo-Nazi and other extremist militias to spearhead a fierce “anti-terrorism operation” against resistance from the ethnic Russian population in the east, which – like Crimea – had supported Yanukovych. More than 6,000 Ukrainians, most of them ethnic Russians, have been killed in the fighting.

    Despite this reality, the mainstream U.S. news media has misreported the crisis and distorted the facts to conform to U.S. State Department propaganda. Thus, many Americans believe the false narrative about Russian troops crushing the popular will of the Crimean people, much as the U.S. public was misled about the Iraq situation in 2002-03 by many of the same news outlets.

    Or, as Forbes’ Rapoza put it: “At some point, the West will have to recognize Crimea’s right to self rule. Unless we are all to believe that the locals polled by Gallup and GfK were done so with FSB bogey men standing by with guns in their hands.” The FSB is a Russian intelligence agency.

    The GfK survey also found that Crimeans considered the Ukrainian media, which has been wildly anti-Russian, unreliable. Only 1 percent said the Ukrainian media “provides entirely truthful information” and only 4 percent said it was “more often truthful than deceitful.”

    So, the people at the frontline of this conflict, where Assistant Secretary Nuland, detected a “reign of terror,” say they are not only satisfied with being restored to Russia, which controlled Crimea since the 1700s, but don’t trust the distorted version of events that they see on Ukrainian TV.

    Practical Reasons

    Some of the reasons for the Crimean attitudes are simply pragmatic. Russian pensions were three times larger than what the Ukrainian government paid – and now the Ukrainian pensions are being slashed further in compliance with austerity demands from the International Monetary Fund.

    This month, Nuland boasted about those pension cuts in praising the Kiev regime’s steps toward becoming a “free-market state.” She also hailed “reforms” that will force Ukrainians to work harder and into old age and that slashed gas subsidies which helped the poor pay their heating bills.

    Last year, the New York Times and other U.S. news outlets also tossed around the word “invasion” quite promiscuously in discussing Crimea. But you may recall that you saw no images of Russian tanks crashing into the Crimean peninsula or an amphibious landing or paratroops descending from the skies. The reason was simple: Russian troops were already in Crimea.

    The Russians had a lease agreement with Ukraine permitting up to 25,000 military personnel in Crimea to protect the Russian naval base at Sevastopol. About 16,000 Russian troops were on the ground when the Feb. 22, 2014 putsch occurred in Kiev – and after a crisis meeting at the Kremlin, they were dispatched to prevent the coup regime from imposing its control on Crimea’s people.

    That Russian intervention set the stage for the March 16 referendum in which the voters of Crimea turned out in large numbers and voted overwhelmingly for secession from Ukraine and reintegration with Russia, a move that the Russian parliament and President Putin then approved.

    Yet, as another part of its false reporting, the New York Times claimed that Putin denied that Russian troops had operated inside Crimea – when, in fact, he was quite open about it. For instance, on March 4, 2014, almost two weeks before the referendum, Putin discussed at a Moscow press conference the role of Russian troops in preventing the violence from spreading from Kiev to Crimea. Putin said:

    You should note that, thank God, not a single gunshot has been fired there. … Thus the tension in Crimea that was linked to the possibility of using our Armed Forces simply died down and there was no need to use them. The only thing we had to do, and we did it, was to enhance the defense of our military facilities because they were constantly receiving threats and we were aware of the armed nationalists moving in. We did this, it was the right thing to do and very timely.”

    Two days after the referendum, which recorded the 96 percent vote in favor of seceding from Ukraine and rejoining Russia, Putin returned to the issue of Russian involvement in Crimea. In a formal speech to the Russian Federation, Putin justified Crimea’s desire to escape the grasp of the coup regime in Kiev, saying:

    “Those who opposed the [Feb. 22] coup were immediately threatened with repression. Naturally, the first in line here was Crimea, the Russian-speaking Crimea. In view of this, the residents of Crimea and Sevastopol turned to Russia for help in defending their rights and lives, in preventing the events that were unfolding and are still underway in Kiev, Donetsk, Kharkov and other Ukrainian cities.

    “Naturally, we could not leave this plea unheeded; we could not abandon Crimea and its residents in distress. This would have been betrayal on our part.”

    But to make it appear that Putin was denying a military intervention, the Times and other U.S. news outlets truncated Putin’s statement when he said, “Russia’s Armed Forces never entered Crimea.” The Western press stopped there, ignoring what he said next: “they were there already in line with an international agreement.”

    Putin’s point was that Russian troops based in Crimea took actions that diffused a possibly violent situation and gave the people of Crimea a chance to express their wishes through the ballot. But that version of events didn’t fit with the desired narrative pushed by the U.S. State Department and the New York Times. So the problem was solved by misrepresenting what Putin said.

    But the larger issue now is whether the Obama administration and the European Union will insist on forcing the Crimean people – against their will – to rejoin Ukraine, a country that is rapidly sliding into the status of a failed state and a remarkably cruel one at that.



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  3. #2

    One Year After Russia Annexed Crimea, Locals Prefer Moscow To Kiev

    Here's from the Forbes article linked to above:


    One Year After Russia Annexed Crimea, Locals Prefer Moscow To Kiev


    By: Kenneth Rapoza
    March 20, 2015
    The U.S and European Union may want to save Crimeans from themselves. But the Crimeans are happy right where they are.

    One year after the annexation of the Ukrainian peninsula in the Black Sea, poll after poll shows that the locals there — be they Ukrainians, ethnic Russians or Tatars are mostly all in agreement: life with Russia is better than life with Ukraine.

    Little has changed over the last 12 months. Despite huge efforts on the part of Kiev, Brussels, Washington and the Organization for Security and Cooperation in Europe, the bulk of humanity living on the Black Sea peninsula believe the referendum to secede from Ukraine was legit. At some point, the West will have to recognize Crimea’s right to self rule. Unless we are all to believe that the locals polled by Gallup and GfK were done so with FSB bogey men standing by with guns in their hands.

    In June 2014, a Gallup poll with the Broadcasting Board of Governors asked Crimeans if the results in the March 16, 2014 referendum to secede reflected the views of the people. A total of 82.8% of Crimeans said yes. When broken down by ethnicity, 93.6% of ethnic Russians said they believed the vote to secede was legitimate, while 68.4% of Ukrainians felt so. Moreover, when asked if joining Russia will ultimately make life better for them and their family, 73.9% said yes while 5.5% said no.

    In February 2015, a poll by German polling firm GfK revealed that attitudes have not changed. When asked “Do you endorse Russia’s annexation of Crimea?”, a total of 82% of the respondents answered “yes, definitely,” and another 11% answered “yes, for the most part.” Only 2% said they didn’t know, and another 2% said no. Three percent did not specify their position.


    With two studies out of the way, both Western-based, it seems without question that the vast majority of Crimeans do not feel they were duped into voting for annexation, and that life with Russia will be better for them and their families than life with Ukraine. A year ago this week, 83% of Crimeans went to the polling stations and almost 97% expressed support for reunification with their former Soviet parent. The majority of people living on the peninsula are ethnic Russians.

    The U.S. made a big deal about the rights of ethnic minorities there known as the Tatars, which account for around 10% of the population. Of the 4% total that said they did not endorse Russia’s annexation, the vast majority — 55% — said that they feel that way because they believe it should have been allowed by Kiev in accordance with international law. Another 24% said the referendum vote was “held under pressure”, which means political or military threats to vote and vote in favor.

    The GfK survey also asked if the Ukrainian media have given Crimea a fair assessment. Only 1% said that the Ukrainian media “provides entirely truthful information” and only 4% said it was “more often truthful than deceitful.”

  4. #3
    This is just kind of an aside thing...

    10 American Humvees welcomed in Ukraine by Poroshenko (VIDEO)
    ...

    Ukrainian authorities received the first batch of American Humvee vehicles on Wednesday. Altogether, 10 armored off-roaders have been brought to Kiev’s Borispol airport aboard a US Air Force military tactical freighter.

    Ukrainian President Petro Poroshenko personally attended the “presentation”ceremony and even drove one of the vehicles.

    The HMMWVs (Humvees) are being delivered to Ukraine within the framework of non-lethal military aid promised to Ukrainian authorities by Washington. Though the announced help is non-lethal, the newly delivered Humvees have armored defenses and bulletproof glass. Each vehicle has a pre-mounted machine gun turret on top of it (without the actual weapon, though).

    Ukrainian armed forces expect Washington to supply 230 armored Humvees to Kiev, Colonel Andrey Lysenko told Forbes Ukraine.

    Kiev has recently also bought a batch of British-made Saxon armored vehicles for $50,000 apiece.

    The ceasefire agreement currently in effect in Ukraine is not respected by Ukraine’s armed forces, which continue shelling of the settlements and cities under the control of the rebels. Ukraine authorities in their turn also blame the militia for ceasefire violations.

    Despite the latest Minsk ceasefire agreement signed February 12, civilians are still being killed when shells hit residential buildings, schools, hospitals and public transport.


    Continued - 10 American Humvees welcomed in Ukraine by Poroshenko (VIDEO)

  5. #4
    Would someone explain this to me as if I was George Bush #42.
    Kiev /Crimea /Ukraine, the Annexation...... Resultant US Saber rattling.
    I don't follow international occupations and politics closely.
    The annexation, was it legal or just done ?
    The people we are supposedly trying to protect from Russia have no interest in
    us protecting them , they want to be re-absorbed by Moscow ?

    If you can explain this macro view of whats really going on, how about throwing
    in Israeli occupation/settlements of West bank and why there is such saturation in the
    media about the evils of Iran , and how absolutely wonderful Israel is, but less than
    .001% time is allotted for discussion pro or against the occupation, it seems to be
    a taboo subject.

    , ,
    .

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    This is just kind of an aside thing...

    10 American Humvees welcomed in Ukraine by Poroshenko (VIDEO)
    ...




    Continued - 10 American Humvees welcomed in Ukraine by Poroshenko (VIDEO)
    Thanks N.C. I so wish I understood what is going on in the minds of our Congress. Crimea not only has overwhelmingly voted to secede from Ukraine and join Russia since last year's coup, but Lew Rockwell had a post way back when showing that Crimea has repeatedly voted overwhelmingly, in every election, for secession from Ukraine since independence from the Soviet Union in the early 1990s after the Soviet Union fell.

    Why are our politicians forcing people to be a part of a country that they've never wanted to be a part of?

    I do think when Angela Merkel took Hollande with her to Moscow and they sat in a room all night into the morning with Putin that she now sees things from a different perspective. At least I'm hoping that that's true. Her negotiations to accept that Crimea now is a part of Russia as well as her acceptance of the eastern rebel controlled regions having strong autonomy from the Ukraine government, seemed to be a watershed and give hope. If so, it would seem the United States is, once again, isolating itself with calling for giving weapons to the Ukraine government with the explicit command that those weapons must be used to get back Crimea and eastern controlled regions under Kiev's rule. And after extending herself totally and accomplishing a peaceful solution, to think that our Congress wants to send these lethal weapons (as well as the non-lethal weapons you've mentioned above) will not only create more violence and death, but I would think would really irritate Merkel. I cannot imagine at this point that she would ever go along with anymore U.S. backed sanctions.

    If there might be any light at the end of this tunnel, it might be that the Europeans will shun the U.S. in the future if it keeps fomenting this violence.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    Thanks N.C. I so wish I understood what is going on in the minds of our Congress. Crimea not only has overwhelmingly voted to secede from Ukraine and join Russia since last year's coup, but Lew Rockwell had a post way back when showing that Crimea has repeatedly voted overwhelmingly, in every election, for secession from Ukraine since independence from the Soviet Union in the early 1990s after the Soviet Union fell.

    Why are our politicians forcing people to be a part of a country that they've never wanted to be a part of?

    I do think when Angela Merkel took Hollande with her to Moscow and they sat in a room all night into the morning with Putin that she now sees things from a different perspective. At least I'm hoping that that's true. Her negotiations to accept that Crimea now is a part of Russia as well as her acceptance of the eastern rebel controlled regions having strong autonomy from the Ukraine government, seemed to be a watershed and give hope. If so, it would seem the United States is, once again, isolating itself with calling for giving weapons to the Ukraine government with the explicit command that those weapons must be used to get back Crimea and eastern controlled regions under Kiev's rule. And after extending herself totally and accomplishing a peaceful solution, to think that our Congress wants to send these lethal weapons (as well as the non-lethal weapons you've mentioned above) will not only create more violence and death, but I would think would really irritate Merkel. I cannot imagine at this point that she would ever go along with anymore U.S. backed sanctions.

    If there might be any light at the end of this tunnel, it might be that the Europeans will shun the U.S. in the future if it keeps fomenting this violence.
    All I could really do is share with you my own view of why things are evolving (thankfully devolving now) in the way that they have over there. It is complex. I'll tell you what, though..heh...things aren't really working out the way that some people thought when they went for the overthrow. I'll think about your question and shoot you a pm with my thought on it. I've read your posts so that's likely the way that I'd prefer to discuss my own thought on it if you're curious. Sometimes more minds are practical but not practical when they are drowned out. A lot of times we talk about things here and it just gets lost. And, of course, we are discussing suchj things on a political site where outr favorite politicians may actually support what has been going on and so that is another reason people aren't interested in the issue itself. Is what it is, I accept it for what it is. Am I right about everything? Likely not. But if you've read some of the links that I've shared with you then certainly you're seeing the broader...oh...model. I guess that is the word.

    Much of the premise for the overthrow wa with regard to the TPP, I think. And we'd do well to pay close attention to what the BRIC nations are doing. At the moment U.S. foreign policy has been exposed as what it is as a result of what we are seeing in the Ukraine. Copletey counterintuitive. We are accomplishing exactly the opposite of what we say we want to accomplish through our foreign policy. Just look at China. They are expanding far and wide.

    Of course, I've flirted with the notion that there may well be some people who reside and function from within both mainstream U.S. political parties who may want and are actively attempting to stimulate economic isolationism too. Which compounds what we are seeing. NATO really needs to have the military threat meme pushed because they are fighting to actually remain relevant. Of course, a few nations are playing along but making it clear under no certain terms will they go along with the whole NATO thing. I mean, sure, Germany can (and has) say they are short on weapons when solicited with the notion of becoming involved with all of that but they still sell them to others. They aren't short on anything except patience with imperialists and their minions. which is why we saw what we saw with France and Germany's intervention. It is ceratinly interesting that we are seeing terrorism in France now. Heh. Some other stuff...
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 03-26-2015 at 04:06 PM.

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Stratovarious View Post
    Would someone explain this to me as if I was George Bush #42.
    Kiev /Crimea /Ukraine, the Annexation...... Resultant US Saber rattling.
    I don't follow international occupations and politics closely.
    The annexation, was it legal or just done ?
    The people we are supposedly trying to protect from Russia have no interest in
    us protecting them , they want to be re-absorbed by Moscow ?

    If you can explain this macro view of whats really going on, how about throwing
    in Israeli occupation/settlements of West bank and why there is such saturation in the
    media about the evils of Iran , and how absolutely wonderful Israel is, but less than
    .001% time is allotted for discussion pro or against the occupation, it seems to be
    a taboo subject.

    , ,
    .
    >>Would someone explain this to me as if I was George Bush #42. Kiev /Crimea /Ukraine, the Annexation...... Resultant US Saber rattling. I don't follow international occupations and politics closely. The annexation, was it legal or just done ?

    It was a Democratic vote (see my response to N.C. above about Lew Rockwell's page). And it was overwhelming. I guess the answer would be depending on if you believe in the self-determination of people. I do, and so believe the annexation was completely legal. This becomes especially true since it was the U.S. that backed the violent overthrow of the Democratically elected government of Ukraine back in February 2014 and put in a puppet government that the eastern and southeastern Ukrainians believe to be illegitimate.

    >>The people we are supposedly trying to protect from Russia have no interest in us protecting them , they want to be re-absorbed by Moscow ?

    Crimea is already re-absorbed. They overwhelming voted to become part of Russia last year. And as stated above, historically, they've voted in every election since independence from the Soviet Union to have autonomy from Ukraine. They never wanted to be part of Ukraine.

    >>If you can explain this macro view of what's really going on, how about throwing in Israeli occupation/settlements of West bank and why there is such saturation in the media about the evils of Iran , and how absolutely wonderful Israel is, but less than .001% time is allotted for discussion pro or against the occupation, it seems to be a taboo subject.

    Well the Palestinians want self-determination just like the Crimeans. Other groups like the Kurds, Tibetans, and Chechnyans would also fall within this category. Regarding saturation in the media about the evils of Iran? The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful in our country and pretty much controls our politicians. Noam Chomsky recently stated that with regard to opposing the Iran Nuclear Deal, Israel’s Goal Isn’t Survival — It’s Regional Dominance. I also believe the MIC plays a part in wanting non-stop wars for profit, as does Wall Street (who many times spends money on both sides of a war).

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    All I could really do is share with you my own view of why things are evolving (thankfully devolving now) in the way that they have over there. It is complex. I'll tell you what, though..heh...things aren't really working out the way that some people thought when they went for the overthrow. I'll think about your question and shoot you a pm with my thought on it. I've read your posts so that's likely the way that I'd prefer to discuss my own thought on it if you're curious. Sometimes more minds are practical but not practical when they are drowned out. A lot of times we talk about things here and it just gets lost. And, of course, we are discussing suchj things on a political site where outr favorite politicians may actually support what has been going on and so that is another reason people aren't interested in the issue itself. Is what it is, I accept it for what it is. Am I right about everything? Likely not. But if you've read some of the links that I've shared with you then certainly you're seeing the broader...oh...model. I guess that is the word.

    Much of the premise for the overthrow wa with regard to the TPP, I think. And we'd do well to pay close attention to what the BRIC nations are doing. At the moment U.S. foreign policy has been exposed as what it is as a result of what we are seeing in the Ukraine. Copletey counterintuitive. We are accomplishing exactly the opposite of what we say we want to accomplish through our foreign policy. Just look at China. They are expanding far and wide.

    Of course, I've flirted with the notion that there may well be some people who reside and function from within both mainstream U.S. political parties who may want and are actively attempting to stimulate economic isolationism too. Which compounds what we are seeing.
    Thanks N.C.; of course I am curious... without understanding other perspectives I believe it's impossible to grow. I'm not sure, however, if people avoid a topic that they'd otherwise be opposed to, that it's because their favorite politician goes along with that topic . I think it's more of a matter of time constraints and information overload. Our government is involved in so many things in so many ways it becomes difficult to keep up with it all. As for Ukraine and the TPP: not really sure. If they were, it probably was the TTIP, and I do agree with you in that there is a strong likelihood that all the U.S. backed violence in Ukraine can all be boiled down to corporate profits. Smedley Butler said so about U.S. foreign policy way back when, and it sure does seem like it still holds true for today.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    I'm not sure, however, if people avoid a topic that they'd otherwise be opposed to, that it's because their favorite politician goes along with that topic . I think it's more of a matter of time constraints and information overload.
    Yes, that is certainly true. I pop open my mouth sometimes and things just come out. All I can really do there is ask myself what I can do better and try to work on it. I think I just assume that we are more informed with regard to all things global around here as a group. And like I said, I certainly don't know everything either. Thanks, charrob. That's a fair assessment. I'll work on it.

  12. #10
    In other words, the West’s insistence that Russia must return Crimea to Ukraine would mean violating the age-old U.S. principle of a people’s right of self-determination.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  13. #11
    N.C. you are way too hard on yourself. Thanks for the information about BRICS... it is one of those areas that kind of gives me information overload.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Otherone, are you saying you don't believe in people's right of self determination, or you don't believe the U.S. has ever given this to people?

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    N.C. you are way too hard on yourself. Thanks for the information about BRICS... it is one of those areas that kind of gives me information overload.

    No, I do pop off some stuff that I likely shouldn't sometimes. Seriously. The crap of it is that I don't realize it because we get what we give. And so it really never gets realized. And then when someone like you comes along and responds the way that you did it kind of makes the bell go off. So, not being hard on myself but merely saying thanks.

    You know, there was a really good thread or post around here some place about Frequency. If I ever find it I'll bump it.

    Lots of stuff happening with BRICS though.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    Otherone, are you saying you don't believe in people's right of self determination, or you don't believe the U.S. has ever given this to people?
    Individuals have the Right to free association. Groups don't have Rights. In regards self-governance, the US has only ever been concerned with protecting it's own interests. If an incumbent regime defies the US, it supports the brave freedom fighters striving against it. If a people wish to topple a US puppet-state, then it will support it against it's terrorist threat. The federal government is a political body comprised of politicians. It acts only only on political necessity, not virtue. "Exporting Freedom" is a bumper sticker.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    >>Would someone explain this to me as if I was George Bush #42. Kiev /Crimea /Ukraine, the Annexation...... Resultant US Saber rattling. I don't follow international occupations and politics closely. The annexation, was it legal or just done ?

    It was a Democratic vote (see my response to N.C. above about Lew Rockwell's page). And it was overwhelming. I guess the answer would be depending on if you believe in the self-determination of people. I do, and so believe the annexation was completely legal. This becomes especially true since it was the U.S. that backed the violent overthrow of the Democratically elected government of Ukraine back in February 2014 and put in a puppet government that the eastern and southeastern Ukrainians believe to be illegitimate.

    >>The people we are supposedly trying to protect from Russia have no interest in us protecting them , they want to be re-absorbed by Moscow ?

    Crimea is already re-absorbed. They overwhelming voted to become part of Russia last year. And as stated above, historically, they've voted in every election since independence from the Soviet Union to have autonomy from Ukraine. They never wanted to be part of Ukraine.

    >>If you can explain this macro view of what's really going on, how about throwing in Israeli occupation/settlements of West bank and why there is such saturation in the media about the evils of Iran , and how absolutely wonderful Israel is, but less than .001% time is allotted for discussion pro or against the occupation, it seems to be a taboo subject.

    Well the Palestinians want self-determination just like the Crimeans. Other groups like the Kurds, Tibetans, and Chechnyans would also fall within this category. Regarding saturation in the media about the evils of Iran? The Israeli lobby is extremely powerful in our country and pretty much controls our politicians. Noam Chomsky recently stated that with regard to opposing the Iran Nuclear Deal, Israel’s Goal Isn’t Survival — It’s Regional Dominance. I also believe the MIC plays a part in wanting non-stop wars for profit, as does Wall Street (who many times spends money on both sides of a war).

    Thanks for your perspective and observations, Not sure other than the fairly obvious
    why I don't hear a massive clamor over the propaganda and out right lies we
    are getting in an attempt to push us into conflict with Russia.
    We need to have very radical cleansing of our interventionist policies.
    I had a pretty good idea about what I gather is aipac's Congressional Contributions
    (hence Control), and recall (if correctly) Ron Paul was one of a very small number that was not 'signed'
    on which impressed me.
    We send Israel Billions , Congress bought and paid for,pennies on the dollar
    something like that.....

    , ,
    .



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