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Thread: Mother flees with 4 year old child to escape court-ordered circumcision

  1. #1

    Mother flees with 4 year old child to escape court-ordered circumcision

    Mom Who Fled to Prevent Son's Circumcision Ordered to Court

    A woman who fled with her son while fighting to prevent his circumcision has been ordered to appear in court with the 4-year-old in Florida.

    Heather Hironimus is due to appear Tuesday before Circuit Judge Jeffrey Gillen in Delray Beach.

    Gillen found the woman in contempt after she missed a hearing Friday. He said she had until 2 p.m. Tuesday to return with the boy and consent to the procedure or she'll face jail.

    Hironimus agreed to circumcise her son but then changed her mind, leading to a long court fight with the boy's father. Judges have sided with the father.

    The case has drawn protests and widespread attention from anti-circumcision advocates who deride the surgery as barbaric.
    Radical in the sense of being in total, root-and-branch opposition to the existing political system and to the State itself. Radical in the sense of having integrated intellectual opposition to the State with a gut hatred of its pervasive and organized system of crime and injustice. Radical in the sense of a deep commitment to the spirit of liberty and anti-statism that integrates reason and emotion, heart and soul. - M. Rothbard



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  3. #2
    Isn't this the case where the child had phimosis and the physician decided a circumcision would be the correct procedure to cure the problem? Of course before signing the consent form she should have gotten a second opinion.

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    Isn't this the case where the child had phimosis and the physician decided a circumcision would be the correct procedure to cure the problem?
    Then the doctor was an unqualified $#@!head that has never seen an uncircumcised dick.

    This is normal in children and adolescents.

    []

    A Danish survey found that the mean age of first foreskin retraction is 10.4 years.[10]
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
    Last edited by presence; 03-21-2015 at 10:53 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Then the doctor was an unqualified $#@!head that has never seen an uncircumcised dick.


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis
    You and I know that, but I'll bet the judge doesn't.

  6. #5
    Frankly I'd support a ban on the practice. It is a violation of the NAP to force a child to undergo a medically unnecessary surgical procedure.

    Not to mention how ethnocentric our views are on male vs female circumcision. Little girls would be in CPS custody in a heartbeat if word got out that clitoris' were being hacked off with such callous indifference.
    Last edited by presence; 03-21-2015 at 11:03 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Frankly I'd support a ban on the practice. It is a violation of the NAP to force a child to undergo a medically unnecessary surgical procedure.
    This^^ Also unethical (by Hippocratic standards and most others).
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  8. #7
    Here is the other thread on the same kind of thing.
    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...t-circumcision

  9. #8
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    Interesting. A story thrown at internet trolls, to rile them up.

    Nice one, NSA.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by UWDude View Post
    Interesting. A story thrown at internet trolls, to rile them up.

    Nice one, NSA.
    Controversial things can't happen without the NSA?
    The more prohibitions you have,
    the less virtuous people will be.
    The more weapons you have,
    the less secure people will be.
    The more subsidies you have,
    the less self-reliant people will be.

    Therefore the Master says:
    I let go of the law,
    and people become honest.
    I let go of economics,
    and people become prosperous.
    I let go of religion,
    and people become serene.
    I let go of all desire for the common good,
    and the good becomes common as grass.

    -Tao Te Ching, Section 57

  12. #10
    Because searching the forums for "Heather Hironimus" was harder than just starting another thread, I guess.



  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    Frankly I'd support a ban on the practice. It is a violation of the NAP to force a child to undergo a medically unnecessary surgical procedure.

    .
    I am wiring my house for ethernet today, so this will be a post and run, but in this case the child's doctor and the child's father deemed it medically necessary. Assuming that the doctor has seen many penises, he studied penses in medical school, the father actually has a penis and even probably opted out of his son's circumcision at birth, I think it's safe to assume they are far more qualified to make the call than the rabid-anti-vaxxers. Oops. I mean the anti-circers.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    in this case the child's doctor and the child's father deemed it medically necessary.
    Pathological phimosis (as opposed to the natural non-retractability of the foreskin in childhood) is rare
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Phimosis


    There's not really a such thing as a medically necessary treatment for phimosis in childhood. Its at par with doc and dad saying there is a need for erectile dysfunction medication in childhood. Its laughable to claim such. Maybe if the kid didn't have a peehole? I'm pretty sure that's called something else.

    Although many can retract earlier, it is 100% healthy and within the realm of normal for uncircumcised penises to not have a retractable foreskin until just before puberty. Besides there are plenty of non surgical techniques and topical creams to help stretch the foreskin so the penis can work its way through.

    Last edited by presence; 03-22-2015 at 03:49 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  15. #13
    Just putting this here to avoid creating a tedious, unnecessary new thread. h/t LRC
    https://www.lewrockwell.com/2015/07/...-circumcision/
    While flipping through the WestJet TV lineup on a recent cross-country flight, I reluctantly settled for a popular daytime talk-show (my other options included Days of Our Lives and re-runs of Here Comes Honey Boo Boo), which saw a panel of 4 diversely opinionated women duking it out to see who could make their co-host seem like the bigger idiot. Sigh.
    Interestingly, however, the subject they were debating that day happened to be male circumcision, a surprising topic for daytime TV.
    Two of the female hosts in particular were taking the stage with polarizing views on the matter. One host saw the medical procedure as a hygienic practice that lowered the risk of disease while the other saw it as an archaic and highly irrelevant surgery.
    In the end, the audience was left undecided. I, however, was left with an ignited curiosity about a medical procedure that I had never really taken time to question.
    I was impressed by the research the anti-circumcision host had prepared for her debate, and it got me thinking intently about the ethics behind the globally rooted practice.
    How Did Circumcision Come To Be Globally Recognized?
    Ancient Medieval era circumcision Italy.Source: Wikimedia

    While the true origins of circumcision are largely obscured, the procedure undoubtedly has ancient roots, as documented in findings from several ethnic groups, including ancient Egypt, Greece, and Sub-equatorial Africa.
    It has been proposed that the procedure began for a number of reasons, including serving as a rite of passage marking a boy’s entrance into adulthood or as a form of sympathetic magic to ensure virility or fertility. It could also have been started as a means of reducing sexual pleasure, marking those of higher social status, aiding hygiene where regular bathing was impractical, or even humiliating enemies and slaves by symbolic castration.
    By the 1890s, it became a popular technique to prevent, or cure, masturbatory insanity.
    Clitoridectomies (removal of the clitoris) were also performed for the same reason, and were widely practiced in the US until 1925. This of course was until someone recognized the absurdity of such an invasive and irrelevant medical procedure.
    Yet even still, male circumcision continued onwards unto further generations of men.
    Today, the World Health Organization (WHO) has estimated that globally one-third of males aged 15 years and over are circumcised, with almost 70% of those being Muslims.
    To Cut Or Not To Cut
    Surprisingly, even though circumcision is still performed by most surgeons today, many leading medical institutions show no favour towards the procedure.
    Take the New England Journal of Medicine, for example:
    Failure to provide adequate control of pain amounts to substandard and unethical medical practice.
    The American Academy of Pediatrics Policy Statement on circumcision:
    Existing scientific evidence demonstrates potential medical benefits of newborn male circumcision; however, these data are not sufficient to recommend routine neonatal circumcision. (AAP 1999)
    The British Medical Association:
    [P]arental preference alone is not sufficient justification for performing a surgical procedure on a child. (BMA 2006)
    Even the Canadian Paediatric Society has reservations about circumcision:
    Circumcision of newborns should not be routinely performed. (CPS 1996)
    Perhaps the reason most medical institutions show no favor towards circumcision has something to do with one of medicine’s first code of ethics, “First, do no harm.”
    Removing a normal, healthy body part and causing unnecessary pain is in fact doing harm.
    Pardon my rudeness, but the common rebuttal that states “the pain only lasts for a minute” is both incorrect and inhumane.
    We know that a baby has nerve endings in their genitals at birth, therefore surgically cutting a newborn’s penis undoubtedly causes extreme pain for the baby. Even if it were only for a ‘minute’ (which it’s not), such an argument also implies it is okay to inflict unnecessary pain on an infant, even if only temporarily.
    Furthermore, circumcision without anesthesia is inconsistent with ethical guidelines that prohibit performing surgical procedures on live beings without anesthesia.
    Money, Autonomy, and Misguided Parental Decisions
    In her article, “Circumcision Ethics and Economics,” author Darcia Narvaez states that her anti-circumcision stance comes down to money, autonomy, and parental intentions.
    For one, Narvaez explains how much money we actually waste on the procedure.
    Medicaid spends $198 million each year on routine infant circumcision in the 33 states that still pay for it, a procedure its own guidelines consider to be medically unnecessary. Private insurance programs are reimbursing an additional $677 million, raising prices for us all (Craig 2006.) In addition to the cost of circumcision itself, correcting its complications are said to double the cost, bringing the total bill to $1.75 billion each year. Is this what we should be spending money on during a recession and at a time when healthcare costs are skyrocketing?
    Complications indeed, not to mention the average 117 neonatal circumcision-related deaths(9.01/100,000) which occur annually in the United States.
    Secondly, Narvaez points out that everyone has a right to bodily autonomy and self-determination, and that the only person qualified to make the medical decision is “the owner of the penis, as he is the one going to have to live with the results, not his parents.”
    Another valid point brought up by Narvaez comes down to the fact that parents’ “aesthetic preferences are not valid reasons for circumcision.”
    While all of her points speak truth in some regard, there are arguments for circumcision that should also be looked at.
    Risk of Disease?
    The most common arguments for circumcision comes down to hygiene and risk of disease. Increased risk of spreading and contracting HPV, cervical cancer, and HIV are the big ones most commonly mentioned.
    However, when one actually takes the time to look at the studies which suggest this correlation, it’s extremely easy to see how weak that correlation is (fortunately).
    A 2002 paper in the New England Journal of Medicine studied men in Europe, Asia, and Latin America, and found that circumcision was correlated with a decreased risk of penile HPV infection (this correlation is corroborated by a 2009 study in African men), but that there was not a significant correlation between circumcision and incidence of cervical cancer.
    When they restricted their dataset to women with only one sexual partner, there was an increased risk of cervical cancer in women whose partners were uncircumcised only if their partner was already considered at high risk for contracting HPV (as determined by age at first intercourse, number of sexual partners, and sex with prostitutes). So, in men who already engage in risky sexual behavior, circumcision does offer an advantage for protecting their partners from cervical cancer.
    Yes, circumcision reduces the mucosal surface area, thereby potentially minimizing the interface for abrasion and transmission of viruses, but again, this is a weak reason for surgical intervention.
    Women also have many crevices and folds in their genitals, yet we don’t automatically assume to surgically remove their labia for hygienic purposes.
    It’s called showering.
    Facing Reality
    Routine infant circumcision is a 90-year aberration among hundreds of thousands of years of our time here as ****-sapiens.
    Furthermore, manmade traditions have never been the basis for scientific principles, so why have we chosen to hold on to such an archaic way of thinking with regards to circumcision?
    Thankfully, these traditions are on their way out soon, with only 30% of American boys circumcised in 2009. It seems that more and more parents are seeing through the silly traditions of our past while looking to create a more reasonable future for us all.
    Perhaps one day we will look back at a list of all the strange things we once accepted as normal and laugh, with circumcision topping the list of these absurdities.
    What are your thoughts on male circumcision? Share with us in the comment section below!
    Reprinted with permission from Collective Evolution.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    I am wiring my house for ethernet today, so this will be a post and run, but in this case the child's doctor and the child's father deemed it medically necessary. Assuming that the doctor has seen many penises, he studied penses in medical school, the father actually has a penis and even probably opted out of his son's circumcision at birth, I think it's safe to assume they are far more qualified to make the call than the rabid-anti-vaxxers. Oops. I mean the anti-circers.
    Well. I'm a male and I have one of those... penises (please spell it correctly). AND circumcision is an unnecessary procedure based on religious traditions.

    If you want to pontificate about circumcision, then I invite you to have it done to yourself, first. THEN you will have room to instruct others on this glorious procedure.
    There is no spoon.

  17. #15
    I don't know why some folks put so much faith in what a physician has learned in med school. My physician didn't know not to attempt to retract an infants foreskin. I had to tell him not to do it or he would have tried and probably damaged it.



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