View Poll Results: Can a person willfully celebrate Easter rather than Firstfruits and still be a Christian?

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20. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes, one can keep pagan fertility rites, rejecting the Resurrection Day, and still be a Christian.

    5 25.00%
  • No, a person cannot wilfully reject the commandments of God and still be a Christian.

    9 45.00%
  • Huh? I don't get it (or, the cognitive dissonance is too strong for me to answer)

    6 30.00%
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Thread: Can you celebrate pagan fertility rites and still be a Christian?

  1. #181
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    No idea, Doc. When Christianity was first brought to the Norse I'd imagine that it came in sublime. Many of the Norse weren't willing to give up their pantheon so it was probably easier to integrate the two as much as possible.
    This is usually the historical case. If Pope Gregory did not object to Christians using these names, it was likely out of oikonomia and for pastoral reasons. Just because I write Thursday today doesn't mean I worship Thor. If it is true today, it was likely true back then when Christians in general were much more serious about the faith.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  3. #182
    I use the word oikonomia often, and I am not sure it is understood by all. Here is a concise definition:

    In the Orthodox Church, in Eastern and Latin Catholic churches, and in the teaching of the Church Fathers which undergirds the theology of those communions, economy or oeconomy (Greek: οἰκονομία, oikonomia) has several meanings. The basic meaning of the word is "handling" or "disposition" or "management" or more literally "housekeeping" of a thing, usually assuming or implying good or prudent handling (as opposed to poor handling) of the matter at hand. In short, economia is discretionary deviation from the letter of the law in order to adhere to the spirit of the law and charity. This is in contrast to legalism, or akribia (Greek: ακριβεια)—strict adherence to the letter of the law of the church.

    As such, the word "economy", and the concept attaching to it, are utilized especially with regard to two types of "handling": (a) divine economy, that is, God's "handling" or "management" of the fallen state of the world and of mankind—the arrangements he made in order to bring about man's salvation after the Fall; and (b) what might be termed pastoral economy (or) ecclesiastical economy, that is, the Church's "handling" or "management" of various pastoral and disciplinary questions, problems, and issues that have arisen through the centuries of Church history.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  4. #183
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Can you provide a link, because I haven't heard this before. I know that in Greece and most Orthodox countries, the days of the week are named by their number, thus in Greek is The Lord's Day (Sunday), Second Day (Monday), Third Day, Fourth Day, Preparation Day (Paraskeve, Friday), Sabbath (Saturday).

    I am not certain how the tradition started for Thor's day (Thursday, etc)...
    What do you want a link to? Is it that you want a link to how the Gregorian calendar came into existence?

  5. #184
    Quote Originally Posted by Dr.3D View Post
    What do you want a link to? Is it that you want a link to how the Gregorian calendar came into existence?
    I thought you were going to point to some historical controversies about the name of the days of the week.


    I wonder when this started becoming a big deal? I mean, about an insistence that saying 'Thor's Day' had any crippling effect in their faith. What city were these 'Biblical Christians' protesting at that time? I do have writings of the Saints which make clear that such things have no value apart from Christ.

    This has born true in my own experience. As a child I associated 'Friday' with 'Christ's death on the cross', before I ever heard of Norse myths and religions. So it remains today, the day Christ was crucified, even knowing about the other history of calendar nomenclature.

    I would posit that this modern phenomenon of critiquing things which were never a cause for riot or schism has more to do with a protesting spirit then a spirit of understanding and compassion. It is like a manufactured 'crisis' when it never was such.

    It is because Christians could understand the difference and through prayer and humility learn to see Christ in all things, that these symbols found any usefulness or meaning.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  7. #185
    My basic point, my friend, is that these are needless distractions and should not be things which cause separation. Should I fear eternal torment because I use a calendar which has the name 'Thursday' as a cultural tradition? If so, we all are doomed!
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  8. #186
    Where's the option for celebrating Easter as a remembrance of the resurrection of Jesus?

  9. #187
    I am one of those who actually celebrate the pagan holiday, the equinox, etc, as I don't believe Christ actually rose from the dead.... so.... you got me.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
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  10. #188
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    I am one of those who actually celebrate the pagan holiday, the equinox, etc, as I don't believe Christ actually rose from the dead.... so.... you got me.
    Do you consider yourself a Christian?

  11. #189
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I use the word oikonomia often, and I am not sure it is understood by all. Here is a concise definition:

    In the Orthodox Church, in Eastern and Latin Catholic churches, and in the teaching of the Church Fathers which undergirds the theology of those communions, economy or oeconomy (Greek: οἰκονομία, oikonomia) has several meanings. The basic meaning of the word is "handling" or "disposition" or "management" or more literally "housekeeping" of a thing, usually assuming or implying good or prudent handling (as opposed to poor handling) of the matter at hand. In short, economia is discretionary deviation from the letter of the law in order to adhere to the spirit of the law and charity. This is in contrast to legalism, or akribia (Greek: ακριβεια)—strict adherence to the letter of the law of the church.

    As such, the word "economy", and the concept attaching to it, are utilized especially with regard to two types of "handling": (a) divine economy, that is, God's "handling" or "management" of the fallen state of the world and of mankind—the arrangements he made in order to bring about man's salvation after the Fall; and (b) what might be termed pastoral economy (or) ecclesiastical economy, that is, the Church's "handling" or "management" of various pastoral and disciplinary questions, problems, and issues that have arisen through the centuries of Church history.
    I didn't know that yet, thanks! ~hugs~
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  12. #190
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Where's the option for celebrating Easter as a remembrance of the resurrection of Jesus?
    It inspired me to put up a poll and asking the members if they still beat their spouses: Yes or No?

  13. #191
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I thought you were going to point to some historical controversies about the name of the days of the week.


    I wonder when this started becoming a big deal? I mean, about an insistence that saying 'Thor's Day' had any crippling effect in their faith. What city were these 'Biblical Christians' protesting at that time? I do have writings of the Saints which make clear that such things have no value apart from Christ.

    This has born true in my own experience. As a child I associated 'Friday' with 'Christ's death on the cross', before I ever heard of Norse myths and religions. So it remains today, the day Christ was crucified, even knowing about the other history of calendar nomenclature.

    I would posit that this modern phenomenon of critiquing things which were never a cause for riot or schism has more to do with a protesting spirit then a spirit of understanding and compassion. It is like a manufactured 'crisis' when it never was such.

    It is because Christians could understand the difference and through prayer and humility learn to see Christ in all things, that these symbols found any usefulness or meaning.
    Certain Quakers will say numbers for days of the week and months as well. So this is third month, second day. They also usually hold to thees and thous. It is called plain speech. I never chose to adopt the practice but I know some plain speaking Quakers. They are part of the branch of Quakerism I find closest to my beliefs.

    Video for anyone interested: http://quakerspeak.com/history-quaker-plain-speech/ or google Quaker plain speech
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  14. #192
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    It inspired me to put up a poll and asking the members if they still beat their spouses: Yes or No?
    Only if she brings me the crop and asks in a respectful and subservient manner...



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  16. #193
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    My basic point, my friend, is that these are needless distractions and should not be things which cause separation. Should I fear eternal torment because I use a calendar which has the name 'Thursday' as a cultural tradition? If so, we all are doomed!
    Yeah, I just wondered why, when he had the chance, he didn't remove the pagan names and replace them with something else, like numbers. I now have the answer I was looking for, thank you.

  17. #194
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    ...
    LOL. Can't just simply admit you were wrong can you? Instead you responded by a cut and paste wall of text of someone else's commentary in response to my simple search of the Bible. The fact is you were wrong. The apostles broke break everyday and came together for worship on Sabbath. The "Well Thomas worshiped Jesus the first day Thomas saw him" argument is ridiculously weak. Jesus got worshiped when whenever miraculous or significant things happened. Mary worshiped Him after anointing Him. Sometimes people He healed worshiped Him.

    By the way, Thomas worshiped Jesus on a MONDAY!

    26 And after eight days again his disciples were within, and Thomas with them: then came Jesus, the doors being shut, and stood in the midst, and said, Peace be unto you.

    Count it up. Jesus appeared to some of the disciples on a Sunday, the day he arose. Eight days later would be Monday!

    Let's count them.

    Monday - 1 day later. Tuesday - 2 days later. Wednesday - 3 days later. Thursday - 4 days later. Friday - 5 days later. Saturday - 6 days later. Sunday - 7 days later. MONDAY WAS THE EIGHT DAY FOLLOWING RESURRECTION SUNDAY!

    So Sola_Fide, if you are using the day Thomas worshiped Jesus as your day of worship then you need to start going to church on MONDAY!

    Hey, I'm not going to complain for a 3 day weekend. Let's throw in every Friday for Good Friday too.
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  18. #195
    And since this thread is about Holydays. Here are this years dates. The new moon was just seen in Israel on the 21st. marking the first month of the Biblical year.
    These Holy Day dates are for Israel and regions westward to the International Date Line.
    This may be Year 6019 After Creation.

    Date Sunset Moonset Illum. Sun's [Moon's at Sunset] Sun's Visib Visible?
    (Evening) % Azimuth Azimuth Altitude Alt(M) Number
    20 Mar 5:50 6:03 0.11 89.86 91.07 1.89 -2.87 23.96 Not Visible
    21 Mar 5:51 7:12 2.39 90.33 88.03 15.6 -17.1 186.2 Visible
    Abib 1 is Sunday, 22 Mar 2015 CE
    The Passover sacrifice is Saturday, 4 Apr 2015 CE
    The Feast of Unleavened Bread goes from Sunday, 5 Apr 2015 CE
    to Saturday, 11 Apr 2015 CE
    The Wave Offering (the First-fruit) is Sunday, 5 Apr 2015 CE
    First-fruits (Pentecost) is Sunday, 24 May 2015 CE
    Date Sunset Moonset Illum. Sun's [Moon's at Sunset] Sun's Visib Visible?
    (Evening) % Azimuth Azimuth Altitude Alt(M) Number
    13 Sep 5:48 5:52 0.13 94.41 91.85 0.03 -0.99 7.436 Not Visible
    14 Sep 5:47 6:25 1.70 93.96 83.11 7.06 -8.16 96.22 Prob Not Visible
    The following Holy Days could be one day earlier:
    Feast of Trumpets is Wednesday, 16 Sep 2015 CE
    The Day of Atonement is Friday, 25 Sep 2015 CE
    The Feast of Tabernacles (Ingathering) goes from Wednesday, 30 Sep 2015 CE
    to Tuesday, 6 Oct 2015 CE
    The Great Last Day is Wednesday, 7 Oct 2015 CE

  19. #196
    I haven't seen anyone's mention of Christmas- which I love, BTW.

    CHRISTMAS
    Why December 25?
    For the church's first three centuries, Christmas wasn't in December—or on the calendar at all.
    Elesha Coffman | posted 8/08/2008 12:33PM


    For the church's first three centuries, Christmas wasn't in December—or on the calendar at all.

    Elesha Coffman

    It's very tough for us North Americans to imagine Mary and Joseph trudging to Bethlehem in anything but, as Christina Rosetti memorably described it, "the bleak mid-winter," surrounded by "snow on snow on snow." To us, Christmas and December are inseparable. But for the first three centuries of Christianity, Christmas wasn't in December—or on the calendar anywhere.

    If observed at all, the celebration of Christ's birth was usually lumped in with Epiphany (January 6), one of the church's earliest established feasts. Some church leaders even opposed the idea of a birth celebration. Origen (c.185-c.254) preached that it would be wrong to honor Christ in the same way Pharaoh and Herod were honored. Birthdays were for pagan gods.

    Not all of Origen's contemporaries agreed that Christ's birthday shouldn't be celebrated, and some began to speculate on the date (actual records were apparently long lost). Clement of Alexandria (c.150-c.215) favored May 20 but noted that others had argued for April 18, April 19, and May 28. Hippolytus (c.170-c.236) championed January 2. November 17, November 20, and March 25 all had backers as well. A Latin treatise written around 243 pegged March 21, because that was believed to be the date on which God created the sun. Polycarp (c.69-c.155) had followed the same line of reasoning to conclude that Christ's birth and baptism most likely occurred on Wednesday, because the sun was created on the fourth day.

    The eventual choice of December 25, made perhaps as early as 273, reflects a convergence of Origen's concern about pagan gods and the church's identification of God's son with the celestial sun. December 25 already hosted two other related festivals: natalis solis invicti (the Roman "birth of the unconquered sun"), and the birthday of Mithras, the Iranian "Sun of Righteousness" whose worship was popular with Roman soldiers. The winter solstice, another celebration of the sun, fell just a few days earlier. Seeing that pagans were already exalting deities with some parallels to the true deity, church leaders decided to commandeer the date and introduce a new festival.

    Western Christians first celebrated Christmas on December 25 in 336, after Emperor Constantine had declared Christianity the empire's favored religion. Eastern churches, however, held on to January 6 as the date for Christ's birth and his baptism. Most easterners eventually adopted December 25, celebrating Christ's birth on the earlier date and his baptism on the latter, but the Armenian church celebrates his birth on January 6. Incidentally, the Western church does celebrate Epiphany on January 6, but as the arrival date of the Magi rather than as the date of Christ's baptism.

    Another wrinkle was added in the sixteenth century when Pope Gregory devised a new calendar, which was unevenly adopted. The Eastern Orthodox and some Protestants retained the Julian calendar, which meant they celebrated Christmas 13 days later than their Gregorian counterparts. Most—but not all—of the Christian world now agrees on the Gregorian calendar and the December 25 date.

    The pagan origins of the Christmas date, as well as pagan origins for many Christmas customs (gift-giving and merrymaking from Roman Saturnalia; greenery, lights, and charity from the Roman New Year; Yule logs and various foods from Teutonic feasts), have always fueled arguments against the holiday. "It's just paganism wrapped with a Christian bow," naysayers argue. But while kowtowing to worldliness must always be a concern for Christians, the church has generally viewed efforts to reshape culture—including holidays—positively. As a theologian asserted in 320, "We hold this day holy, not like the pagans because of the birth of the sun, but because of him who made it."

    Elesha can be reached at cheditor@ChristianityToday.com.

    The online issue archive for Christian History goes as far back as Issue 51 (Heresy in the Early Church). Prior issues are available for purchase in the Christian History Store.
    http://www.christianitytoday.com/ch/...000/dec08.html

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  20. #197
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    If you go by this logic, Sola, that says one is required to either take everything literally or take everything metaphorically with nothing in between, then either Paul was not actually a man but literally an ox working a grain field, who literally kept the Feast of Unleavened Bread with the Philippians, or Paul was in fact a man and only metaphorically an ox, who lied about literally keeping the Feast of Unleavened Bread with the Philippians.

    Paul's behavior here is only consistent from my paradigm.

    The Bible is not either everything-is-literal or nothing-is-literal with nothing in between
    You must spread blah blah blah. Gunny, STOP MAKING SENSE! I can't keep up with so many damn reps!
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  21. #198
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    What feast did Jesus tell us to remember until the last day? (Hint: there's just one)
    You're talking about "the lords supper" or whatever you want to call it right?

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    For a Christian, the only holy day is Sunday.
    Wait, which one of those is the only one? Or is there only two now? I'm confused.
    Last edited by The Rebel Poet; 05-08-2015 at 03:45 PM.
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    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

  22. #199
    Sure, just be sure to bring your own vernal equinox celebration chocolate bunnies and eggs.

  23. #200
    I have 52 holy days that I will be celebrating this year, and it's called the Lord's Day, it gives me time to rest spiritually, recharge my batteries after 6 days of spinning my wheels in this crazy world and also expand my cranium with some good books on the history and piety of the church. Why spend just one Sunday stuffing my face with candy so some corporate CEO can have another limousine and drive myself crazy with extraneous activities like playing amateur artist with hard-boiled eggs, when I can have a regularly scheduled rest period and weekly routine that actually keeps me sane?

    P.S. - Anyone who is still celebrating Old Testament holy days needs to crack open Paul's epistle to the Galatians, particularly if they are still ritually slaughtering lambs and eating unleavened cracker-bread for Passover while calling themselves a Christian.



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  25. #201
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I have 52 holy days that I will be celebrating this year, and it's called the Lord's Day, it gives me time to rest spiritually, recharge my batteries after 6 days of spinning my wheels in this crazy world and also expand my cranium with some good books on the history and piety of the church. Why spend just one Sunday stuffing my face with candy so some corporate CEO can have another limousine and drive myself crazy with extraneous activities like playing amateur artist with hard-boiled eggs, when I can have a regularly scheduled rest period and weekly routine that actually keeps me sane?

    P.S. - Anyone who is still celebrating Old Testament holy days needs to crack open Paul's epistle to the Galatians, particularly if they are still ritually slaughtering lambs and eating unleavened cracker-bread for Passover while calling themselves a Christian.
    Paul also tells us to retain our Christian Traditions (such as the Eucharist and Pascha).
    Quote Originally Posted by 2 Thessalonians 2:15
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    []
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  26. #202
    Which of the above are the pagan fertility rites?

  27. #203
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Paul also tells us to retain our Christian Traditions (such as the Eucharist and Pascha).
    []
    I do retain the Eucharist, only not with unleavened bread, which along with observing an OT ceremonial holy day is Judaizing. http://www.reformation.org/unleavened-bread-error.html

    The Eucharist/Communion supplanted the typical holy day of Passover, a shadow meant to point to the coming of Christ. Celebrating Passover is thus a redundant, obsolete practice, and one that has nothing to do with colored eggs. http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=305

    When Paul was speaking of keeping the Passover, he was speaking of the Eucharist, which was instituted by Christ at the final Passover (The Last Supper) before his crucifixion.

  28. #204
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Which of the above are the pagan fertility rites?
    I voted no on the fertility rites since I don't celebrate any of the Roman Catholic advent calendar. I tried to inject a little bit of a lighthearted tone into my post because it seemed most of the people here held an opposing view.

  29. #205
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I voted no on the fertility rites since I don't celebrate any of the Roman Catholic advent calendar. I tried to inject a little bit of a lighthearted tone into my post because it seemed most of the people here held an opposing view.
    Carry on.

  30. #206
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I do retain the Eucharist, only not with unleavened bread, which along with observing an OT ceremonial holy day is Judaizing. http://www.reformation.org/unleavened-bread-error.html

    The Eucharist/Communion supplanted the typical holy day of Passover, a shadow meant to point to the coming of Christ. Celebrating Passover is thus a redundant, obsolete practice, and one that has nothing to do with colored eggs. http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=305

    When Paul was speaking of keeping the Passover, he was speaking of the Eucharist, which was instituted by Christ at the final Passover (The Last Supper) before his crucifixion.
    That's not Judaizing. Judaizers claimed that converts to Christianity had to become ritually Jewish before becoming Christian. Pascha isn't redundant. As you say, it is the celebration of the sacrifice of humanity's Paschal lamb, Christ.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  31. #207
    Quote Originally Posted by hells_unicorn View Post
    I do retain the Eucharist, only not with unleavened bread, which along with observing an OT ceremonial holy day is Judaizing. http://www.reformation.org/unleavened-bread-error.html

    The Eucharist/Communion supplanted the typical holy day of Passover, a shadow meant to point to the coming of Christ. Celebrating Passover is thus a redundant, obsolete practice, and one that has nothing to do with colored eggs. http://www.opc.org/qa.html?question_id=305

    When Paul was speaking of keeping the Passover, he was speaking of the Eucharist, which was instituted by Christ at the final Passover (The Last Supper) before his crucifixion.
    "Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

    Judaizing? I think you meant "Bibleizing."
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  32. #208
    Quote Originally Posted by The Rebel Poet View Post
    "Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

    Judaizing? I think you meant "Bibleizing."
    Paul can't mean keep a feast literally as well as figuratively, because, well, just because...

    (sarcasm)
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  34. #209
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    That's not Judaizing. Judaizers claimed that converts to Christianity had to become ritually Jewish before becoming Christian. Pascha isn't redundant. As you say, it is the celebration of the sacrifice of humanity's Paschal lamb, Christ.
    Exactly right. People throw around that term without a thought. They should look up how it is used in the bible.
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    "ideas have the potential of being more powerful than any army....The concept of personal sovereignty was pulled screaming from the ether into this reality by the force of men believing in a self evident truth, that men are meant to be free." - The Northbreather

    "Trump is the security blanket of aggrieved white men aged 18-60." - Pinoy

  35. #210
    Quote Originally Posted by The Rebel Poet View Post
    "Therefore let us keep the Festival, not with the old bread leavened with malice and wickedness, but with the unleavened bread of sincerity and truth."

    Judaizing? I think you meant "Bibleizing."
    Uh, nope, I meant Judaizing. And you seem to have problems with figurative language Johnny Reb.

    "Then Jesus said unto them, Take heed and beware of the leaven of the Pharisees and of the Sadducees." Matthew 16:6
    "A little leaven leaveneth the whole lump." Galatians 5:9


    The Jews never leavened their bread for Passover, hence the reference to leaven in Paul's and Christ's words regarding both the Judaizers and the Pharisees/Sadducees deals with teaching, not what is done with the sacramental bread, which is more Germane to the following verse:

    "The kingdom of heaven is like leaven, which a woman took and hid in three measures of meal till it was all leavened." Matthew 13:33

    The use of leaven in sacramental bread, which was used universally for the first 1,000 years of the Christian faith, was added as an acknowledgment that Christ's resurrection ushered in the end of the Old Testament dispensation. This is the same reason why the Sabbath was moved from the 7th day to the 8th/1st day, as stated in the following:

    "And upon the first day of the week, when the disciples came together to break bread, Paul preached unto them, ready to depart on the morrow; and continued his speech until midnight." Acts 20:7

    "Upon the first day of the week let every one of you lay by him in store, as God hath prospered him, that there be no gatherings when I come." 1 Corinthians 16:2

    "Let no man therefore judge you in meat, or in drink, or in respect of an holy day, or of the new moon, or of the Sabbath days: Which are a shadow of things to come; but the body is of Christ." Colossians 2:16-17

    "I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet." Revelation 1:10

    Hmm, what was that about "Bibleizing" again? lol

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