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Thread: Should babies be baptized?

  1. #1
    Eagles' Wings
    Member

    Should babies be baptized?

    A sermon by Rev. David Feddes, former English radio minister with Back to God Ministries International.

    January 13, 2002

    He and all his family were baptized. Acts 16:33

    Should babies be baptized or not? It can be dangerous to ask that question. One danger is that Christians might be divided against each other. Christians don't all agree about infant baptism, so if they focus more on this area of disagreement than on their unity in Jesus Christ, it can cause division. A second, related danger is that if Christians disagree openly with each other, it can become an excuse for non-Christians to ignore Jesus and the Bible. Why pay attention to Christianity if Christians can't agree among themselves what to believe?

    Recognizing these dangers, I don't want to say anything that sets Christians against each other or that repels people who don't yet know Jesus as their Savior. I love my fellow Christians and want to encourage deeper unity in Christ. I also love people who don't follow Christ, and I want each of you to enter a joyous, life-giving relationship with him. Above all, I love Jesus, and I want to honor him and draw people to him. So before I say whether babies should be baptized, a matter on which Christians don't all agree, I first want to emphasize common ground and highlight things on which all true Christians agree.

    All true Christians believe the Bible as the Word of God. All true Christians believe in God the Father as Creator of the universe and Father of his people. All true Christians believe in Jesus as the Son of God and the Savior of all who trust in him. All true Christians believe in the Holy Spirit as the third Person of the Trinity, who connects us with Christ, produces faith, and gives eternal life. All true Christians believe that each person added to the Lord's church should be baptized in the name of the Father and of the Son and of the Holy Spirit.

    All true Christians see baptism as a sign of sins being washed away and of being united with Christ's death and resurrection. All true Christians see baptism as a seal of God's grace for sinners, not of our own goodness. All true Christians see baptism as a mark by which God claims a person and requires faith, love, and obedience. All true Christians believe that an unbaptized person who has grown up outside a Christian setting, without faith in Christ, must turn to Jesus in repentance and personal faith before being baptized.

    Not all Christians agree on whether babies born to believing parents should be baptized, but Christians do agree that it's a huge privilege and responsibility when a child is born into a Christian family. Even many who don't support infant baptism still have ceremonies of dedication in which they celebrate God's goodness and promise to lead their little one in God's ways.

    Not all Christians agree on whether a personal, public commitment to Christ is necessary before a child from a Christian family is baptized, but Christians do agree that such a personal, public commitment is necessary at some point. Even those who support infant baptism still insist that those who are baptized as babies must later respond with a public profession of personal faith in Christ as Lord and Savior, and must live for him.

    Christians may have differences, but let's never forget the common ground and the unity that Christians share. Keeping this in mind, let's address the question, "Should babies be baptized?"

    Clearing Away Clutter

    Let's begin by clearing away some clutter that confuses the issue. What do I mean by clutter? I mean mistaken ideas and flawed reasons that have piled up on both sides of this matter.

    Some supporters of infant baptism believe that baptism has almost magical power to save and that a baby who dies unbaptized cannot go to heaven. They think the water itself washes away the original sin a baby is born with and causes a baby to be born again into new life. This view, called baptismal regeneration, is not biblical. If you support infant baptism because you believe in baptismal regeneration, you need a sounder basis than that.

    By the same token, if you oppose infant baptism because you oppose the idea of baptismal regeneration, you need a better reason for opposing it. After all, millions of Christians believe in infant baptism without believing in baptismal regeneration at all. They don't believe God's saving power is bound to the water or to a church official applying the water. They have a better, more biblical case for baptizing babies, and you must consider that stronger case before you decide against infant baptism. Baptismal regeneration is one piece of clutter that needs to be cleared away in order to get at the real meaning of baptism and decide whether it should ever be applied to babies.

    Here's a second piece of clutter: using Jesus' baptism as an adult as proof that baptism isn't for babies. Jesus was baptized at age 30 (Luke 3:21-23), and some folks claim that this disproves infant baptism. Sound convincing? Well, if Jesus' baptism at age 30 proves that babies shouldn't be baptized, it also proves that teenagers shouldn't be baptized, that twenty-somethings shouldn't be baptized, that anyone under 30 shouldn't be baptized. Even opponents of infant baptism know it can't mean that. They baptize committed Christian youth many years before they reach the age at which Jesus was baptized. In their view, baptism must be applied as soon as an individual makes a personal commitment to the Lord, and not before then. But they would never say Jesus waited till age 30 because he was not committed to his heavenly Father before that point. As Bible-believing Christians, they know there was not a moment of Jesus' life when he was not God's Son, fully committed to his Father.

    The baptism Jesus received from John the Baptist in the Jordan River at age 30 was John's kind of baptism. That was different from the kind of baptism Jesus established. The Bible makes this clear. Therefore, the timing of Jesus' adult baptism by John has nothing to do with the timing of Christian baptism in the era after Jesus ascended to heaven and poured out his Holy Spirit. To say otherwise is confusing clutter.

    A third kind of clutter is reasoning from silence, trying to score points on the basis of what the Bible doesn't say. If you oppose infant baptism, you might point out, "Nowhere does the Bible command infant baptism, and nowhere does the Bible mention a particular baby being baptized." That may sound convincing at first, but it's just as true to say, "Nowhere does the Bible command us not to baptize babies, and nowhere in the Bible is there a record of someone who grew up in a Christian family being baptized as a teenager rather than as an infant." Reasoning from silence doesn't prove much either way.

    Suppose we were asking not about whether babies should be baptized but about whether Christian women should take part in the Lord's Supper. Nowhere does the Bible command, "Women shall eat the bread and drink the wine." But that doesn't matter. Christians know full well that women belong at the Lord's table. Why? Because of what the Bible says about the status of women who trust Jesus Christ. They are saved through his body and blood; therefore, they belong at the Lord's table.

    It would be clutter to point out that the Bible doesn't speak of women at the Lord's Supper. The real issue is what the Bible says about the status of Christian women and how their status relates to what the Bible says about the Supper. Likewise, it's clutter to point out that the Bible doesn't command that babies be baptized (or not baptized). The real issue is what the Bible says about the status of babies born to godly parents, and how that status relates to what the Bible says about baptism.

    Children of Believers

    Baptism is a sign and seal of entering the community of Christ, the community bought with Jesus' blood and given life by his Holy Spirit. What's the status of babies born to Christian families? Do they belong to that covenant community? Do they have a place in God's family? Are they citizens of God's kingdom?

    The Bible tells of people "bringing babies to Jesus" (Luke 18:15). The Lord's inner circle of disciples rebuked the parents for bringing the little ones. But what did Jesus do?

    When Jesus saw this, he was indignant. He said to them, "Let the little children come to me, and do not hinder them, for the kingdom of God belongs to such as these..." And he took the children in his arms, put his hands on them and bless them. (Mark 10:14,16).

    This story doesn't mention baptism, but it does say a great deal about the status of believer's babies. Jesus embraces and blesses babies of believing parents and says his kingdom belongs to such as these. How, then, can the church refuse them the sign of citizenship in God's kingdom and membership in his family?

    God's covenant has always included not only believers but their children as well. Two thousand years before Christ, God told Abraham, "I will establish my covenant as an everlasting covenant between me and you and your descendants after you for the generations to come, to be your God and the God of your descendants after you" (Genesis 17:7). God's covenant included not only Abraham but his household and his descendants.

    The Bible uses the word covenant more than 270 times, so it's obviously important. What does God mean when he speaks of a covenant? A covenant is a relationship grounded in promises and confirmed by a sign. For example, a marriage covenant is a relationship grounded in wedding vows and confirmed by rings. God's covenant with Abraham was grounded in God's promise to be Abraham's God and the God of his offspring, and this was confirmed by the sign of circumcision.

    God told Abraham, "You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you. For the generations to come every male who is eight days old must be circumcised" (Genesis 17:11-12). Abraham came to faith as an adult and was circumcised as an adult, as "a seal of the righteousness he had by faith" (Romans 4:11). His son Isaac and future children in their line were circumcised as infants and marked as members of the community of faith, even before they could consciously exercise faith of their own. That was the pattern God established for his people.

    Circumcision was not just a physical ritual for a certain ethnic group. It had spiritual meaning, and it could include people who were not born Israelites. If a man grew up as a foreigner to the covenant community and wished to join it and serve the Lord, he was circumcised as an adult, and all males in his household were also circumcised (Exodus 12:48). From then on, any male born into that covenant family was circumcised as an infant, marking him as a member of the covenant.

    God's covenant with Abraham was "an everlasting covenant," not a temporary one. That everlasting covenant remains in effect to this day. God doesn't change. The Lord who made promises to Abraham is the same Lord Jesus who embraced babies brought by believing parents, and still today this same Lord promises to be the God of believers and their children.

    From Circumcision to Baptism

    God doesn't just decide one day to dump his covenant and come up with something entirely different. He remains faithful to the same covenant. But he has brought that covenant into a new and better era, and he seals it with a new and better sign. In the old era, God promised a Savior. In the new era, the promise has been fulfilled. Jesus' perfect life and bloody death and glorious resurrection fulfill everything necessary for salvation by faith. God "announced the gospel in advance to Abraham" (Galatians 3:8), but now that Christ has come, the gospel is clearer than it was in Abraham's day, and the blessings are poured out more abundantly.

    In this new and better covenant era, God gives a new and better covenant sign. Now that Jesus has suffered and poured out his blood, God no longer calls for the bloody, painful sign of circumcision. Instead he gives the sign of baptism. This better sign of baptism is without blood or pain. This better sign of baptism is not limited to males (as circumcision was) but is applied to females as well.

    The new covenant era and the new covenant sign are better than the old, so it would be a shocking letdown if the God who included children of believers in the old era excluded them in the new era. How could babies from covenant families, circumcised in the old era, not be baptized in the new era?

    The Bible links the meaning of circumcision with baptism in Colossians 2:11-12. There Scripture speaks of "the circumcision done by Christ, having been buried with him in baptism and raised with him through your faith in the power of God, who raised him from the dead." Circumcision pictured "the putting off of the sinful nature" (Colossians 2:11); so does baptism. Circumcision was the sign of becoming part of God's covenant community; so is baptism. Circumcision called for a heart in tune with God (Deuteronomy 10:16; 30:6); so does baptism. The spiritual meaning of circumcision is fulfilled in the new covenant sign of baptism.

    Family Baptism

    On the day of Pentecost, the Lord poured out his Holy Spirit to launch the new covenant era. The apostle Peter told the people, "Repent and be baptized, every one of you, in the name of Jesus Christ, for the forgiveness of your sins. And you will receive the gift of the Holy Spirit. The promise is for you and your children" (Acts 2:38-39). Those words of Peter echoed God's promise to Abraham, to be a faithful God to him and his children. About 3,000 people were baptized that day.

    After Pentecost, the Holy Spirit kept adding to the church, and not just one individual at a time. The Spirit added whole families. Entire households were baptized. When the Lord opened the heart of a woman named Lydia, the result was not just an individual baptism. "She and the members of her household were baptized" (Acts 16:15). When a suicidal jailer asked the apostle Paul, "What must I do to be saved?" he was told, "Believe in the Lord Jesus, and you will be saved--you and your household." The man believed, his despair turned to joy, and "he and all his family were baptized" (Acts 16:31,33). A synagogue ruler named Crispus "and his entire household" came to Christ and were baptized (Acts 18:8). In one of Paul's letters, he wrote, "I also baptized the household of Stephanas" (1 Corinthians 1:14).

    Did any of these family baptisms include babies? Probably so, but there's no way to prove it--and there's no need to prove it. Whether there were babies or not, the principle of family solidarity is clear. When an adult was baptized, whether a father or mother, so were the children in the household. When lost sheep went into God's fold, their lambs went with them.

    The gospel addresses households, and it's biblical to respond as households. Biblical faith declares, "As for me and my household, we will serve the Lord" (Joshua 24:15). In the Old Testament, when the head of a household was circumcised, his boys were also circumcised. In the New Testament, when the head of a household was baptized, the rest of the household was also baptized. Today, too, churches should baptize individual converts and the children under their care.

    Marbles or Branches?

    A gospel that speaks only of a personal relationship to God but not a family relationship to God is missing something. The Bible teaches both family solidarity and personal responsibility, not either/or. Our culture is extremely individualistic, and that makes it harder for us to see how babies too young to think for themselves could be included in God's covenant. So let's ask ourselves: are we marbles or branches?

    The Bible speaks of Christ and his church as a grapevine. One way God's vine gets more branches is to grow them. Another way is for branches to be grafted in from outside. Either way, whether a branch grows from the vine or is grafted into it, any twigs on the branch are included as well. When a child is born to someone who is already part of the church, the child is part of the church. When parents from outside the church of Christ become part of it, their children become part of it too. And baptism is the sign of belonging.

    In our individualistic culture, says author Douglas Wilson, we'd rather be marbles than branches. We picture Christ not as a vine but as a marble box where individual marbles are placed one by one for safekeeping. No marble is connected to any other marble. Each is on its own. But has Jesus ever said, "I am the box; you are the marbles"? No, Jesus says, "I am the vine; you are the branches" (John 15:5). If a branch is connected to the vine, so are any twigs that are connected to the branch.

    This does not automatically mean that every branch or twig that's connected to the vine is truly alive and bearing fruit. Some baptized persons are part of the church and attached to the vine outwardly, but they turn out to be dead wood, without the life of Christ or the fruit of faith. Jesus says, "My Father ... cuts off every branch in me that bears no fruit" (John 15:1-2).

    Some Christians oppose infant baptism largely because some people baptized as babies turn out faithless and fruitless. That's an important concern. But there are also people baptized as youth or adults who turn out faithless and fruitless. Lifeless, nominal Christianity is a serious danger, but that doesn't mean that no babies should be baptized. It means churches must be sure to baptize not just any child but only covenant children, children of active, professing believers. It also means that church discipline must be applied when it becomes evident that a branch is dead. If a baptized person rejects Christ and lives in sin, that person must be warned of God's judgment and no longer be regarded as part of the church.

    But let's not get stuck on what happens to dead branches. These are tragic exceptions, not the rule. The joyful expectation of baptism is that branches joined to the vine will flourish and bear fruit.

    When a new baby is born, do parents wait for years to see whether the baby chooses to be part of the family before they treat him as part of the family? No, they treat the little one as part of the family right away. Do they wait for years to give the child a name and just say "Hey, you!" until he can choose a name for himself? No, they give the baby a name as soon as he's born. Now, it's conceivable that when a child grows up, he could disown his family and change his name, but that's not the expectation. The expectation is that the child will always be in the family.

    In God's family, the church, should we wait for a baby to grow up before treating him as a member of God's family? Should we wait to see how he turns out before we give him a name, an identity? No, a baby of Christian parents should be treated from the start as part of God's family. He should have the name of the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit placed on him in baptism.

    To be born into a Christian family and be baptized as a baby is no substitute for personal faith; it makes the call for personal faith all the more powerful and urgent. That's why churches that baptize babies of believers also insist that when those children reach a point where they're able to make up their own minds, they must make a personal, public profession of faith in Christ. Let me say again: God's covenant involves family solidarity and personal responsibility, not either/or.

    God uses baptism to strengthen faith and increase joy. If you trust in Jesus and see your baptism as the sign of sins forgiven and union with Christ, your baptism is a personal comfort. If you bring babies to Christ for his blessing and baptism, if you do all in your power to instruct them in the Christian faith and to lead them by your example to be Christ's disciples, if you make your home a place where Christ is loved and obeyed, then baptism is a seal of joy and confidence for your family's future.

    A relationship with God is always deeply personal but never merely private. God does not just deal with individuals one at a time. God's covenant embraces believers, their families, and future generations. "He is the faithful God, keeping his covenant of love to a thousand generations of those who love him and keep his commands" (Deuteronomy 7:9). What glorious good news!



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  3. #2
    Interesting article. This is an issue I've been considering lately.

  4. #3
    Eagles' Wings
    Member

    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Interesting article. This is an issue I've been considering lately.
    Sometimes I forget to look at the love and grace given to us from the Holy Trinity. This article reminds me of that.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Louise View Post
    Sometimes I forget to look at the love and grace given to us from the Holy Trinity. This article reminds me of that.
    That's true

  6. #5
    Should babies be baptized?

    Yes, and the sooner the better.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Should babies be baptized?

    Yes, and the sooner the better.
    I agree. Nothing but good can come from giving a child the blessings from God. This is a topic that's been debated that I think is ridiculous in light of the fact that anything done in the spirit of the Lord God sees and is able to make anyone stand.

    Do I believe babies won't go to heaven without a baptism--no--certainly not and neither does the EOC for that matter. Yes--baptize the babies--it's all good.

  8. #7
    Better to wash the baby than to see CPS take the baby away because the kid isn't clean...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Better to wash the baby than to see CPS take the baby away because the kid isn't clean...
    LOL



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Better to wash the baby than to see CPS take the baby away because the kid isn't clean...
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to acptulsa again.

    LOL
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  12. #10
    Interesting article. The author starts out seeming neutral but has a clear position that comes out. He thinks babies should be baptized, even though he is taking a protestant position that the baptism itself doesn't save but rather is a symbol of being in a saving relationship with Jesus. First off I need to reiterate that I don't think infant baptism is "wrong" in the sense that it does harm. Neither do I believe that someone is lost if he is baptized as a child and not re-baptized when he reaches an age of understanding. After all, if the baptism doesn't itself save you then it doesn't matter if you aren't baptized again as long as you enter into a saving relationship with Jesus.

    That said, there are some issues I take with his argument as well as my own observations on the subject.

    Issue 1: Assumptions made about infants in the household.

    The author states there were "probably" infants in the house and then proceeds to make assumptions based on that assumption. Realize that we are only talking about 4 data points here, Lydia, Cornelius, Stephanis and the Phillipi jailer. In the case of the jailer not only does it say his household was baptized and saved but that his entire household believed. So either 1) infants somehow "believe" or 2) there were no infants in the household or 3) Luke really meant "everyone capable of expressing belief believed." If number 3 then we can read "households being baptized" to mean "Everyone who was ready to be baptized based on their expression of belief." If #2 then we can strike the Phillipi jailer as a data point. If number 1 then how did Paul assess that belief and do churches that baptize infants assess belief today?

    So really we only have 3 data points. Children are only considered infants for a short period of their lives. (< 3 years old.) While most families have infants in them at some point, at any given time most families do not currently have infants. That's true even for big families. At some point the parents stop having kids but still have a household. So we really can't say anything about infants in the 3 New Testament baptized households that might have had them.

    Issue 2: Dismissing the significance that Jesus was baptized as an adult.

    I agree that Jesus' being baptized at 30 does not mean that no one can be baptized before 30. Jesus clearly said "Allow the little children to come to me and don't forbid them for of such is the kingdom of heaven." Children were, and are, naturally drawn to Jesus. They naturally believe in Jesus. In Matthew 18:3 Jesus specifically told His disciples that they should have the faith of a little child. Now here's something interesting. In Matthew 19 the Bible says that mothers brought their little children to Jesus to be blessed and He placed his hands on their heads and blessed them. That's what churches that don't do infant baptism do. Jesus did baptize people. John 4:1 says He baptized more disciples than John the Baptist. So....why did He bless the babies instead of baptizing them?

    But back to Jesus' baptism. Remember while Jesus went through the baptism of repentance Jesus did not repent because He didn't need to. That's why John at first told Jesus "I can't baptize You. You should baptize me!" Why was Jesus baptized? To fulfill all righteousness. He was baptized for the thief on the cross and everyone else who would die believing in Him but missing out on the opportunity to express that belief. (And that's why no one has to worry about his/her baby going to hell just because he/she didn't get baptized.) Jesus' baptism also signaled the beginning of His ministry. When Jesus was 12, while He hinted about His ministry in His gentle reminder to His earthly parents that "I must be about My Father's business", He still went home and was obedient to them.

    Anyway, while Jesus did not need to repent, He went through ritual repentance for the sake of others. He could not go through ritual repentance as an infant. How can other infants go through real repentance?

    Issue 3: Circumcision as baptism and "branches and marbles"

    I agree with the thought that households are important and the need to graft children into the family of God. And yes circumcision signifies a covenant and so does baptism. Paul preached about the "circumcision of the heart." How is that accomplished in an infant?

    Romans 2:29 But a Jew is one inwardly, and circumcision is a matter of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter. His praise is not from man but from God. But he is a Jew who is one inwardly; and circumcision is that which is of the heart, by the Spirit, not by the letter; and his praise is not from men, but from God.

    Note this is the fulfillment of a promise made by God through Moses.

    Deuteronomy 30:6 The LORD your God will circumcise your ...

    The LORD your God will circumcise your hearts and the hearts of your descendants, so that you may love him with all your heart and with all your soul, and live.


    Is a baptized infant, all things being equal, more loving of God than a non baptized infant? If one went to an orphanage and baptized half the infants and didn't baptize the other half what would happen? On the other hand teaching a young child about Jesus is vital to circumcision of the heart. "Faith comes by hearing and hearing by the word of God."

    Issue 4: Baptism as THE sign of belonging

    The author states that baptism is a sign of belonging. That's true. But is it the sign of belonging? Did the babies that Jesus blessed by prayer and putting His hand on them not belong to Him? By the way, this also covers the "But as for me and my house we shall serve the Lord." The fact that Joshua's house would serve the Lord is based on His leadership. All of the children of Israel had been circumcised by this point. In fact God made a point of making sure that everyone who hadn't been circumcised was circumcised once they crossed Jordan. So physical circumcision wasn't the dividing line between the faithful and the unfaithful. It was the heart circumcision that comes from teaching.

    Observation 1: Baby blessing accomplishes everything the author believe baby baptism accomplishes.

    The author's words:

    God uses baptism to strengthen faith and increase joy. If you trust in Jesus and see your baptism as the sign of sins forgiven and union with Christ, your baptism is a personal comfort. If you bring babies to Christ for his blessing and baptism, if you do all in your power to instruct them in the Christian faith and to lead them by your example to be Christ's disciples, if you make your home a place where Christ is loved and obeyed, then baptism is a seal of joy and confidence for your family's future.

    My response: (My words in bold).

    God uses baptism to strengthen faith and increase joy. If you trust in Jesus and see your baptism as the sign of sins forgiven and union with Christ, your baptism is a personal comfort. But what sins do you believe are being forgiven on behalf of your infant? If you bring babies to Christ for his blessing and baptism, if you do all in your power to instruct them in the Christian faith and to lead them by your example to be Christ's disciples, if you make your home a place where Christ is loved and obeyed, then baptism is a seal of joy and confidence for your family's future.But how is that any different than what happen if you bring your baby to Christ to be blessed, instead of bring him/her to be blessed and baptized? The mothers in Matthew brought their babies to be blessed. If they were missing out on something why didn't Jesus say "And let's baptize them while we are at it?"

    Observation 2: Confirmation versus repentance

    Really, this is an issue for all children who grow up in church. It doesn't matter if it's an infant baptizing or infant blessing church. Once you reach the age, what exactly is meant by the decision you make for Christ? Are you simply going on as before? Or do you need some kind of change? Does everyone need a "rebirth" experience even if born in the church? What brings that about? I believe that confusion over this is one reason so many young people end up leaving all churches altogether.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 03-21-2015 at 06:29 AM.
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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  13. #11
    The 'controversy' over infant baptism didn't arise until a small group in one localized part of the Church began to speak out against it in (I think) the fourth or fifth century. They were denying a practice and tradition which was already spread everywhere across the known Christian world, separated by long distances. This change in doctrine happened after Christianity was decriminalized and adult former pagans were converging en mass, and it seemed like the grace of baptism required a mental assent. The controversy lasted a very short time because it was clear that the faith which had been passed down and spread everywhere by the early Christians and Apostles (that is, the catholic, orthodox, and apostolic tradition) in fact was the acceptance of infant baptism. This issue would not come up again until many centuries later, after the scholastic and juridical theological themes in the West took precedence over the sacramental beliefs of the early Church.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  14. #12
    Babies have no understanding of God and Jesus. Baptism is rite of identification and not required for salvation.

    Was the malefactor on the cross next to Jesus baptized?

    Luke 23:42-43 King James Version (KJV)

    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Babies have no understanding of God and Jesus. Baptism is rite of identification and not required for salvation.

    Was the malefactor on the cross next to Jesus baptized?

    Luke 23:42-43 King James Version (KJV)

    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    I agree that Baptism may not be required for salvation (God is not limited in Whom He desires to save), but the Christian belief and understanding is that there is a real mystery of Grace and transformation which occurs by the Holy Spirit, a rebirth, and men's understanding is not required for this grace to act.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    I agree that Baptism may not be required for salvation (God is not limited in Whom He desires to save), but the Christian belief and understanding is that there is a real mystery of Grace and transformation which occurs by the Holy Spirit, a rebirth, and men's understanding is not required for this grace to act.
    God makes it perfectly clear in these verses:

    John 3:16 -18 (KJV)
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


    It's really just that simple.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    Babies have no understanding of God and Jesus. Baptism is rite of identification and not required for salvation.

    Was the malefactor on the cross next to Jesus baptized?

    Luke 23:42-43 King James Version (KJV)

    42 And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom.

    43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, To day shalt thou be with me in paradise.
    Not all paedobaptists say baptism is essential for salvation. That said, even as someone who agrees with you that baptism isn't essential for salvation, I'm not sure the thief on the cross is a great argument considering he was in the Old Covenant where baptism wasn't yet ordained.

  18. #16
    Moroni 8: 8-26 in The Book of Mormon clears this up succinctly as the prophet Moroni record words his deceased and former prophet wrote on the subject of infant baptism:

    "Listen to the words of Christ, your Redeemer, your Lord and your God. Behold, I came into the world not to call the righteous but sinners to repentance; the whole need no physician, but they that are sick; wherefore, little children are whole, for they are not capable of committing sin; wherefore the curse of Adam is taken from them in me, that it hath no power over them; and the law of circumcision is done away in me.

    And after this manner did the Holy Ghost manifest the word of God unto me; wherefore, my beloved son, I know that it is solemn mockery before God, that ye should baptize little children.

    Behold I say unto you that this thing shall ye teach—repentance and baptism unto those who are accountable and capable of committing sin; yea, teach parents that they must repent and be baptized, and humble themselves as their little children, and they shall all be saved with their little children.

    And their little children need no repentance, neither baptism. Behold, baptism is unto repentance to the fulfilling the commandments unto the remission of sins.

    But little children are alive in Christ, even from the foundation of the world; if not so, God is a partial God, and also a changeable God, and a respecter to persons; for how many little children have died without baptism!

    Wherefore, if little children could not be saved without baptism, these must have gone to an endless hell.

    Behold I say unto you, that he that supposeth that little children need baptism is in the gall of bitterness and in the bonds of iniquity; for he hath neither faith, hope, nor charity; wherefore, should he be cut off while in the thought, he must go down to hell.

    For awful is the wickedness to suppose that God saveth one child because of baptism, and the other must perish because he hath no baptism.

    Wo be unto them that shall pervert the ways of the Lord after this manner, for they shall perish except they repent. Behold, I speak with boldness, having authority from God; and I fear not what man can do; for perfect love casteth out all fear.

    And I am filled with charity, which is everlasting love; wherefore, all children are alike unto me; wherefore, I love little children with a perfect love; and they are all alike and partakers of salvation.

    For I know that God is not a partial God, neither a changeable being; but he is unchangeable from all eternity to all eternity.

    Little children cannot repent; wherefore, it is awful wickedness to deny the pure mercies of God unto them, for they are all alive in him because of his mercy.

    And he that saith that little children need baptism denieth the mercies of Christ, and setteth at naught the atonement of him and the power of his redemption.

    Wo unto such, for they are in danger of death, hell, and an endless torment. I speak it boldly; God hath commanded me. Listen unto them and give heed, or they stand against you at the judgment-seat of Christ.

    For behold that all little children are alive in Christ, and also all they that are without the law. For the power of redemption cometh on all them that have no law; wherefore, he that is not condemned, or he that is under no condemnation, cannot repent; and unto such baptism availeth nothing—

    But it is mockery before God, denying the mercies of Christ, and the power of his Holy Spirit, and putting trust in dead works.

    Behold, my son, this thing ought not to be; for repentance is unto them that are under condemnation and under the curse of a broken law.

    And the first fruits of repentance is baptism; and baptism cometh by faith unto the fulfilling the commandments; and the fulfilling the commandments bringeth remission of sins;

    And the remission of sins bringeth meekness, and lowliness of heart; and because of meekness and lowliness of heart cometh the visitation of the Holy Ghost, which Comforter filleth with hope and perfect love, which love endureth by diligence unto prayer, until the end shall come, when all the saints shall dwell with God."

    https://www.lds.org/scriptures/bofm/moro/8?lang=eng



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by donnay View Post
    God makes it perfectly clear in these verses:

    John 3:16 -18 (KJV)
    16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.

    17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.

    18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.


    It's really just that simple.
    Only if you ignore what it means to believe in Christ. The reason the faithful are saved is because they obey Christ who, just a few verses before this one in John 3:3-5 had this exchange:

    "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    or as the Resurrected Christ put it in Mark 16:16-

    "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

    The faithful are saved because they obey what Christ asks of them, including being baptized. You cannot be saved in the kingdom of God unless you become born again in Spirit and water, baptism and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. To claim one of those elements is unnecessary for salvation is to directly contradict the scripture. Even Paul attested that the spiritual rebirth needed for salvation, what kills the old man of sin and allows us to be reborn as new men and women in Christ was and is baptism (Romans 6:1-6). The only way one can draw the conclusion that belief is all you need to be saved can only do so by ignoring the mountain of scriptures that testify otherwise. Just as James points out in James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble," yet they are not saved by faith alone.

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    The 'controversy' over infant baptism didn't arise until a small group in one localized part of the Church began to speak out against it in (I think) the fourth or fifth century. They were denying a practice and tradition which was already spread everywhere across the known Christian world, separated by long distances. This change in doctrine happened after Christianity was decriminalized and adult former pagans were converging en mass, and it seemed like the grace of baptism required a mental assent. The controversy lasted a very short time because it was clear that the faith which had been passed down and spread everywhere by the early Christians and Apostles (that is, the catholic, orthodox, and apostolic tradition) in fact was the acceptance of infant baptism. This issue would not come up again until many centuries later, after the scholastic and juridical theological themes in the West took precedence over the sacramental beliefs of the early Church.
    Reference?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    Not all paedobaptists say baptism is essential for salvation. That said, even as someone who agrees with you that baptism isn't essential for salvation, I'm not sure the thief on the cross is a great argument considering he was in the Old Covenant where baptism wasn't yet ordained.
    Baptism was already ordained. Jesus baptized His disciples. Jesus blessed babies. To me that settles the issue. Just follow Jesus' example. To others not so much apparently.

    Edit: And this is why I take scripture over tradition. You can get to an actual answer if you are looking for one.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Reference?
    Good morning!

    You should understand also that the Church Fathers don't usually start addressing certain topics in their writings unless it was a hot button issue of the day. If a certain practice or tradition was already well established and widespread and could be claimed to be apostolic in the first couple of centuries, iow, if there was not question or contiversy in the Church, then many times you don't find much in the particular topic.

    While I look for more specific info regarding the those who started to doubt infant baptism, here are some quotes from the Church Fathers:

    Irenaeus

    "He [Jesus] came to save all through himself; all, I say, who through him are reborn in God: infants, and children, and youths, and old men. Therefore he passed through every age, becoming an infant for infants, sanctifying infants; a child for children, sanctifying those who are of that age . . . [so that] he might be the perfect teacher in all things, perfect not only in respect to the setting forth of truth, perfect also in respect to relative age" (Against Heresies 2:22:4 [A.D. 189]).

    "‘And [Naaman] dipped himself . . . seven times in the Jordan’ [2 Kgs. 5:14]. It was not for nothing that Naaman of old, when suffering from leprosy, was purified upon his being baptized, but [this served] as an indication to us. For as we are lepers in sin, we are made clean, by means of the sacred water and the invocation of the Lord, from our old transgressions, being spiritually regenerated as newborn babes, even as the Lord has declared: ‘Except a man be born again through water and the Spirit, he shall not enter into the kingdom of heaven’ [John 3:5]" (Fragment34 [A.D. 190]).


    Hippolytus

    "Baptize first the children, and if they can speak for themselves let them do so. Otherwise, let their parents or other relatives speak for them" (The Apostolic Tradition 21:16 [A.D. 215]).



    Origen

    "Every soul that is born into flesh is soiled by the filth of wickedness and sin. . . . In the Church, baptism is given for the remission of sins, and, according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants. If there were nothing in infants which required the remission of sins and nothing in them pertinent to forgiveness, the grace of baptism would seem superfluous" (Homilies on Leviticus 8:3 [A.D. 248]).

    "The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants. The apostles, to whom were committed the secrets of the divine sacraments, knew there are in everyone innate strains of [original] sin, which must be washed away through water and the Spirit" (Commentaries on Romans 5:9 [A.D. 248]).



    Cyprian of Carthage

    "As to what pertains to the case of infants: You [Fidus] said that they ought not to be baptized within the second or third day after their birth, that the old law of circumcision must be taken into consideration, and that you did not think that one should be baptized and sanctified within the eighth day after his birth. In our council it seemed to us far otherwise. No one agreed to the course which you thought should be taken. Rather, we all judge that the mercy and grace of God ought to be denied to no man born" (Letters 64:2 [A.D. 253]).

    "If, in the case of the worst sinners and those who formerly sinned much against God, when afterwards they believe, the remission of their sins is granted and no one is held back from baptism and grace, how much more, then, should an infant not be held back, who, having but recently been born, has done no sin, except that, born of the flesh according to Adam, he has contracted the contagion of that old death from his first being born. For this very reason does he [an infant] approach more easily to receive the remission of sins: because the sins forgiven him are not his own but those of another" (ibid., 64:5).



    Gregory of Nazianz

    "Do you have an infant child? Allow sin no opportunity; rather, let the infant be sanctified from childhood. From his most tender age let him be consecrated by the Spirit. Do you fear the seal [of baptism] because of the weakness of nature? Oh, what a pusillanimous mother and of how little faith!" (Oration on Holy Baptism 40:7 [A.D. 388]).

    "‘Well enough,’ some will say, ‘for those who ask for baptism, but what do you have to say about those who are still children, and aware neither of loss nor of grace? Shall we baptize them too?’ Certainly [I respond], if there is any pressing danger. Better that they be sanctified unaware, than that they depart unsealed and uninitiated" (ibid., 40:28).



    John Chrysostom

    "You see how many are the benefits of baptism, and some think its heavenly grace consists only in the remission of sins, but we have enumerated ten honors [it bestows]! For this reason we baptize even infants, though they are not defiled by [personal] sins, so that there may be given to them holiness, righteousness, adoption, inheritance, brotherhood with Christ, and that they may be his [Christ’s] members" (Baptismal Catecheses in Augustine, Against Julian 1:6:21 [A.D. 388]).



    Augustine

    "What the universal Church holds, not as instituted [invented] by councils but as something always held, is most correctly believed to have been handed down by apostolic authority. Since others respond for children, so that the celebration of the sacrament may be complete for them, it is certainly availing to them for their consecration, because they themselves are not able to respond" (On Baptism, Against the Donatists 4:24:31 [A.D. 400]).

    "The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned, nor is it to be regarded in any way as superfluous, nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (The Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

    "Cyprian was not issuing a new decree but was keeping to the most solid belief of the Church in order to correct some who thought that infants ought not be baptized before the eighth day after their birth. . . . He agreed with certain of his fellow bishops that a child is able to be duly baptized as soon as he is born" (Letters 166:8:23 [A.D. 412]).

    "By this grace baptized infants too are ingrafted into his [Christ’s] body, infants who certainly are not yet able to imitate anyone. Christ, in whom all are made alive . . . gives also the most hidden grace of his Spirit to believers, grace which he secretly infuses even into infants. . . . It is an excellent thing that the Punic [North African] Christians call baptism salvation and the sacrament of Christ’s Body nothing else than life. Whence does this derive, except from an ancient and, as I suppose, apostolic tradition, by which the churches of Christ hold inherently that without baptism and participation at the table of the Lord it is impossible for any man to attain either to the kingdom of God or to salvation and life eternal? This is the witness of Scripture, too. . . . If anyone wonders why children born of the baptized should themselves be baptized, let him attend briefly to this. . . . The sacrament of baptism is most assuredly the sacrament of regeneration" (Forgiveness and the Just Deserts of Sin, and the Baptism of Infants 1:9:10; 1:24:34; 2:27:43 [A.D. 412]).


    Council of Carthage V

    "Item: It seemed good that whenever there were not found reliable witnesses who could testify that without any doubt they [abandoned children] were baptized and when the children themselves were not, on account of their tender age, able to answer concerning the giving of the sacraments to them, all such children should be baptized without scruple, lest a hesitation should deprive them of the cleansing of the sacraments. This was urged by the [North African] legates, our brethren, since they redeem many such [abandoned children] from the barbarians" (Canon 7 [A.D. 401]).
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Baptism was already ordained. Jesus baptized His disciples. Jesus blessed babies. To me that settles the issue. Just follow Jesus' example. To others not so much apparently.

    Edit: And this is why I take scripture over tradition. You can get to an actual answer if you are looking for one.
    Unless the Scriptures say explicitly "do not baptize babies" or "the entire household was batpized except for the children and babies", you cannot say Scripture proves your case. At this point, when Scriputre does not explicitly say, we must turn to Church tradition and the practices of the early Church as established by the apostolic fathers to gleam more insight into the truth.
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    Only if you ignore what it means to believe in Christ. The reason the faithful are saved is because they obey Christ who, just a few verses before this one in John 3:3-5 had this exchange:

    "Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

    Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

    Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God."

    or as the Resurrected Christ put it in Mark 16:16-

    "He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned."

    The faithful are saved because they obey what Christ asks of them, including being baptized. You cannot be saved in the kingdom of God unless you become born again in Spirit and water, baptism and the receiving of the Holy Ghost. To claim one of those elements is unnecessary for salvation is to directly contradict the scripture. Even Paul attested that the spiritual rebirth needed for salvation, what kills the old man of sin and allows us to be reborn as new men and women in Christ was and is baptism (Romans 6:1-6). The only way one can draw the conclusion that belief is all you need to be saved can only do so by ignoring the mountain of scriptures that testify otherwise. Just as James points out in James 2:19, "Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble," yet they are not saved by faith alone.
    I think you are missing her point which actually dovetails yours. While God expects us to walk in faith and act on our belief, He does not hold it against anyone who never gets the opportunity to act on that belief. That's the lesson of the thief on the cross. Had Jesus' decided to miraculously save his life, he would have gotten baptized. Baptism of infants out of fear that they might be lost gives a distorted view of God. Baptism of infants because that's just what you want to do isn't itself bad, but it's not what Jesus did. Jesus baptized disciples and blessed infants.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Unless the Scriptures say explicitly "do not baptize babies" or "the entire household was batpized except for the children and babies", you cannot say Scripture proves your case. At this point, when Scriputre does not explicitly say, we must turn to Church tradition and the practices of the early Church as established by the apostolic fathers to gleam more insight into the truth.
    Do you believe in following Jesus' example? The scriptures say that when babies were brought to Him, He prayed for them, put His hands on them and blessed them. The scriptures also say that Jesus baptized His disciples. If Christianity is about following Christ then why do we need an explicit command on what not to do when He gave us examples of what to do? There is no ambiguity in this case.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #24
    Here is Origen, one of the most brilliant and prolific Christian writers in early Church history: (Circa 248)

    "The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants."
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Good morning!
    Good morning. Thanks for the references. I already read them at newadvent.org. Looking forward to your 5th century controversy reference as I wasn't able to find that one.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Do you believe in following Jesus' example? The scriptures say that when babies were brought to Him, He prayed for them, put His hands on them and blessed them. The scriptures also say that Jesus baptized His disciples. If Christianity is about following Christ then why do we need an explicit command on what not to do when He gave us examples of what to do? There is no ambiguity in this case.
    Some people need explicit commands to be explicitly write down before they can believe anything. Funny, that the Church didn't have a NT for some time in the beginning. Also, not everything Christ or the Apostles did was written in the NT. Also, after the Day of Pentecost, the Church inspired by the Holy Spirit began to establish its rules and doctrines and traditions, which included baptizing "entire households". I don't know about you, but I consider my children part of my household .
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Here is Origen, one of the most brilliant and prolific Christian writers in early Church history: (Circa 248)

    "The Church received from the apostles the tradition of giving baptism even to infants."
    And this is where I take what is clear in scripture over tradition just as you don't accept the tradition of the identity of Babylon.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by TER View Post
    Some people need explicit commands to be explicitly write down before they can believe anything. Funny, that the Church didn't have a NT for some time in the beginning. Also, not everything Christ or the Apostles did was written in the NT. Also, after the Day of Pentecost, the Church inspired by the Holy Spirit began to establish its rules and doctrines and traditions, which included baptizing "entire households". I don't know about you, but I consider my children part of my household .
    I have children in my household as well. They are't infants though. There is only mention of the baptism of 4 household in the NT. In one of those households it says that everyone in the household believed. So either there were no infants (children too young to express belief) or Luke was only counting people old enough to believe. Either way, the household argument is weak.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Good morning. Thanks for the references. I already read them at newadvent.org. Looking forward to your 5th century controversy reference as I wasn't able to find that one.
    I was working from memory. I will need to find it... (Btw, it was not a big controversy by any stretch of the imagination. I learned about it while reading a text of Church History and they mentioned it regarding a certain bishop I believe in North Africa who started to change the apostolic tradition and prohibit infants from being baptized. It was a local phenomenon that went nowhere because the catholic Church spread everywhere knew the guy was changing a tradition which was apostolic and which was based on poor theology).
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    And this is where I take what is clear in scripture over tradition just as you don't accept the tradition of the identity of Babylon.
    Did you get good sleep last night jmdrake?
    +
    'These things I command you, that you love one another.' - Jesus Christ

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