Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast
Results 121 to 150 of 156

Thread: Should babies be baptized?

  1. #121
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    If I might play devil's advocate again...

    Acts 8:37 isn't in all of the original manuscripts, but leaving that aside, it isn't dealing with the child of believers. Paedobaptists don't believe in baptizing everyone regardless of belief. They regard the children of believers as holy and covenentally connected.
    I didn't say it was dealing with the child of believers. I posted that passage to show that baptism is by immersion, not sprinkling a few drops of water.

    As for verse 37 not being in all manuscripts...that is true, but from what I have seen, it is a few of the modern translations - which are known for being less accurate, and some would say even subversive (like the NIV) - that left out that verse. I'm not a KJV only person (and personally I don't like to read it because of the 'thees and thous') but I do believe that the KJV is more reliable than some of the modern translations. But that is a topic for another thread.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    When anyone reads the bible (not just these particular verses, but in general) one must discern which verses are literal and which are figurative. It's not a matter of picking and choosing... but reading the bible prayerfully, with the Holy Spirit who teaches us and gives us understanding (John 14:26 John 16:13, 1 Cor. 2:10, 1 Cor. 2:13, etc.)

    Jesus gives us examples to go by. We need to go by Jesus' example or what the scriptures teach. If we don't, we are adding to the bible or taking things away... which is a dangerous thing to do and goes directly goes against God's command.
    I think you're confused actually. Yes--the bread and the wine symbolize the body and the blood of Christ after it's blessed--becomes the literal body and blood of Christ. This is why Jesus said--do this in remembrance of Me.


    John:6
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    Me and erowe discussed this too and came to an agreement after a long theological study of the words "curse and damnation". We both agreed that it's definitely a "curse" to take the bread and the wine without first discerning the sacraments. So the Eucharist is not symbolic--it is a literal transformation of the bread and wine into the body of Christ when done with the discernment of who Christ is and what purpose this serves.

    This should not be confused with the baptizing of babies at all. Baptism is a blessing and a non threatening practice when it's done with the belief that all babies are innocent whether they're baptized or not. If it's done in the name of the Lord and towards God--God is able to make anyone stand in light of this.

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    I think you're confused actually. Yes--the bread and the wine symbolize the body and the blood of Christ after it's blessed--becomes the literal body and blood of Christ. This is why Jesus said--do this in remembrance of Me.


    John:6
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    Me and erowe discussed this too and came to an agreement after a long theological study of the words "curse and damnation". We both agreed that it's definitely a "curse" to take the bread and the wine without first discerning the sacraments. So the Eucharist is not symbolic--it is a literal transformation of the bread and wine into the body of Christ when done with the discernment of who Christ is and what purpose this serves.

    This should not be confused with the baptizing of babies at all. Baptism is a blessing and a non threatening practice when it's done with the belief that all babies are innocent whether they're baptized or not. If it's done in the name of the Lord and towards God--God is able to make anyone stand in light of this.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Terry1 again.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  5. #124
    As a culture we tend to want to dictate how our children identify with everything around him or her. God, if one wishes. Is unfortunate that we can't detach from the notion that it isn't for us to decide. We see so many times in which biblicists demonstrate the magnitude of diversity that exists among themselves. Almost to the point of self destruction in spirit. Of course, there is much to be said for that. At the end of the day, I think, it comes down to identity. A natural identity. It's missing. Lost, likely, is a better word. I don't know.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    I think you're confused actually. Yes--the bread and the wine symbolize the body and the blood of Christ after it's blessed--becomes the literal body and blood of Christ. This is why Jesus said--do this in remembrance of Me.


    John:6
    57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me.

    Me and erowe discussed this too and came to an agreement after a long theological study of the words "curse and damnation". We both agreed that it's definitely a "curse" to take the bread and the wine without first discerning the sacraments. So the Eucharist is not symbolic--it is a literal transformation of the bread and wine into the body of Christ when done with the discernment of who Christ is and what purpose this serves.
    That's a topic for another thread, and one that has already been debated extensively by others. And TBH that is not a topic that I have any desire to debate, at least not today.


    This should not be confused with the baptizing of babies at all. Baptism is a blessing and a non threatening practice when it's done with the belief that all babies are innocent whether they're baptized or not. If it's done in the name of the Lord and towards God--God is able to make anyone stand in light of this.
    Yes, babies are innocent, and that is one of the reasons why water baptism does not apply to them at all.

    So, if it's about the parents' declaration to raise their child as a Christian, then one can dedicate their child - which there are examples of in the bible - instead of going through the motions of a ceremony that is unnecessary at best, and dangerous (if one believes it saves) at worst.
    Last edited by lilymc; 03-29-2015 at 07:16 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    Welcome back to you too! I haven't seen you here in a while.

    I think there are many parents who would feel comforted by things like that. I think it's unfortunate that people with good intentions sometimes put their faith in the wrong things, or find comfort in the wrong things. That's why knowledge is so important, as God strongly stated in Hosea 4:6.

    Babies who die go straight to heaven. So if parents studied the bible, they would have the comfort that comes from God, not from religious ceremonies.
    Thank you lily, and i agree with that totally.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That's a topic for another thread, and one that has already been debated extensively by others. And TBH that is not a topic that I have any desire to debate, at least not today.





    Yes, babies are innocent, and that is one of the reasons why water baptism does not apply to them at all.

    So, if it's more about the parents' declaration to raise their child as a Christian, then one can dedicate their child - which there are examples of in the bible - instead of going through the motions of a ceremony that is unnecessary at best, and dangerous (if one believes it saves) at worst.

    I would think that you might be more concerned with the doctrine that claims that you're saved after a one-time confession of belief no matter how evil of a life you live afterwards--than a harmless blessing of baptizing a baby.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    I would think that you might be more concerned with the doctrine that claims that you're saved after a one-time confession of belief no matter how evil of a life you live afterwards--than a harmless blessing of baptizing a baby.
    That too is a different topic, and one that we all debated til we were blue in the face, for months. I am not concerned with it, because I understand it --- not a distorted straw man version of it.

    As for baby baptism being 'harmless' - I beg to differ. It is dangerous if people don't realize that it is not about salvation. I have known people who believed they were saved or that their kids are saved - because of their baby baptism. If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That too is a different topic, and one that we all debated til we were blue in the face, for months. I am not concerned with it, because I understand it --- not a distorted straw man version of it.

    As for baby baptism being 'harmless' - I beg to differ. It is dangerous if people don't realize that it is not about salvation. I have known people who believed they were saved or that their kids are saved - because of their baby baptism. If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.
    That is called "anecdotal evidence". Not valid.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That too is a different topic, and one that we all debated til we were blue in the face, for months. I am not concerned with it, because I understand it --- not a distorted straw man version of it.

    As for baby baptism being 'harmless' - I beg to differ. It is dangerous if people don't realize that it is not about salvation. I have known people who believed they were saved or that their kids are saved - because of their baby baptism. If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.
    I definitely don't believe anyone is saved by it. You're saved by faith in Christ, period.

    That said, I'm not convinced that any of the verses in question absolutely require immersion, and even if they did, I'm pretty sure the EOC immerses babies at least some of the time (I have other problems with the EOC, but my point is that infant immersion is technically possible even if I wonder if that's comfortable for the baby.)

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That too is a different topic, and one that we all debated til we were blue in the face, for months. I am not concerned with it, because I understand it --- not a distorted straw man version of it.

    As for baby baptism being 'harmless' - I beg to differ. It is dangerous if people don't realize that it is not about salvation. I have known people who believed they were saved or that their kids are saved - because of their baby baptism. If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.
    Well this is where you and I differ. I believe that a baptized baby in the EOC has a far better chance being raised in a Church where the true Gospel of Jesus Christ is taught, rather than growing up in a church where that child believes he or she is saved after a one time confession of belief no matter how they live their lives after that one time event.


    Any church that would baptize someone and tell them that they're saved forever more after that event no matter how they live or treat people--is not a true baptism in Christ--it is false and a lie.
    Last edited by Terry1; 03-29-2015 at 07:48 PM.

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    That is called "anecdotal evidence". Not valid.
    We're not in a court of law here. I was responding to the statement that it's a harmless doctrine.... and I don't agree with that. It goes against Jesus' example, it is not supported by scripture, and unless the church makes it super clear that it's not about salvation, then it DOES mislead people.


    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    I definitely don't believe anyone is saved by it. You're saved by faith in Christ, period.

    That said, I'm not convinced that any of the verses in question absolutely require immersion, and even if they did, I'm pretty sure the EOC immerses babies at least some of the time (I have other problems with the EOC, but my point is that infant immersion is technically possible even if I wonder if that's comfortable for the baby.)
    Well, the issue on HOW to baptize is just one point. What some of us here have been saying is that there's no need for babies to be water baptized at all, immersion or not.

    Blessings or baby dedications are biblical, and serve the purpose that some here have claimed infant baptism is about..... So I'm honestly perplexed on why some people don't follow the biblical model when it comes to babies.
    Last edited by lilymc; 03-29-2015 at 08:01 PM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  15. #133

    Jesus Sprinkles, Not Immerses

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him: And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

    Matthew 3:16-17


    Here are a few points you seem to be ignoring:

    1) It took place in the Jordan River. (Matt 3:6, Matt 3:13) - Not a church with a bowl of water, and there is no mention of sprinkling a few drops on his forehead.
    2) He came up out of the water. - The words "up" and "out of the water" indicate that he was down or submerged, even if only for a moment.
    3) The Greek word for baptism itself (Baptizo) means to immerse, dip or submerge.


    Another example is in Acts 8, the Ethiopian eunuch who became a believer. I'm going to bold some important parts to pay attention to:

    As they went along the road they came to some water; and the eunuch said, “Look! Water! What prevents me from being baptized?” And Philip said, “If you believe with all your heart, you may.” And he answered and said, “I believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God.” And he ordered the chariot to stop; and they both went down into the water, Philip as well as the eunuch, and he baptized him.

    So as you can see, belief with all one's heart is a prerequisite. And as you can see, for them to both be standing in the water clearly shows that it wasn't like a church baby baptism were the priest is dry and there is a bowl of water and a few drops are sprinkled.

    During a water baptism, the person who is doing the baptizing is also in the water, whether it's a river, ocean or pool....any place where a person can be immersed.

    I've shared this a few times before, but I'll share it again. Towards the beginning of this video is a short clip of my water baptism. (you don't have to watch the whole thing... just the first 30 seconds or so)

    Lilymc, there are a few problems with your view above that I'd like to address:

    1. Indeed, Matthew 3:17 says that Jesus "went up straightway out of the water." However, His coming up out of the water occurred after He was baptized. Just read the passage again, for it says, "And Jesus, when He was baptized, went up straightway out of the water." So, His baptism happened, and then He got out of the water. The text doesn't say that Jesus was baptized by going in and out of the water. Thus, you're assuming that His mode of baptism was by immersion, using a phrase incorrectly, which you don't even apply consistently (as I'll show you in a moment).

    But just because Jesus was baptized in a large body of water does not mean that He must have been immersed in it. The apostle Paul tells us that the Old Testament Church was baptized in a large body of water (the Red Sea), but we know that the waters of the sea never touched them because they were baptized from water above them (cf. Psalm 77:17). Thus, in Paul's view, Israel's baptism under Moses was a true baptism, and it did not occur by immersion. It was the Egyptian Army that was immersed in the sea because God drowned them in its waters, in judgment.

    2. In Acts 8, we're told that the Ethiopian eunuch was reading from the prophet Isaiah (v. 28). Then in Verse 32, we're shown what place the eunuch was reading from, as it cites from Isaiah 53:7: "He is brought as a lamb to the slaughter and as a sheep before her shearers is dumb, so He openeth not His mouth." After Philip explains to him that the passage is referring to Jesus, the eunuch asks, "See, here is water; what doth hinder me to be baptized?" Now where did the eunuch get that idea from? We're not told that Philip mentioned baptism to him, after all. When we consider the context of what the eunuch was reading, we find in Isaiah 52:13-15 (which, by the way, there were no chapter and verse divisions in the Old Testament scrolls) that it says:

    Behold, My Servant shall deal prudently, He shall be exalted and extolled and be very high. As many were astonied at Thee, His visage was so marred more than any man, and His form more than the sons of men, so shall He sprinkle many nations...
    Thus, it appears that the Ethiopian eunuch understood that he should be baptized because of the sprinkling language in Isaiah, and that definitely was the mode of cleansing and purification in the Old Testament. So, the context still doesn't imply that the Ethiopian eunuch's baptism was by immersion.

    But here is where you get inconsistent, lilymc. You cite Acts 8:38, where it says, "And he commanded the chariot to stand still, and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him," as a prooftext that baptism is by immersion, emphasizing the phrase "they went down both into the water." In your baptism video, there was only one person who "went down into the water" (you), even though the Acts 8:38 passage says that "they both went down into the water." So, given your hermeneutical standard, it would appear that your baptism was not done properly by the language of the text because the person who baptized you did not go "into the water" when you did. So, was it a valid immersion?

    Also, we find the same problem of sequence that I addressed in the Matthew 3 passage, concerning the action of going into the water and the act of being baptized. In Acts 8:38, it states, "And he commanded the chariot to stand still, and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him." Notice that at the end of that passage, it tells us that Philip baptized the eunuch. But then in the beginning of Verse 39, we read, "And when they were come up out of the water..." So, the eunuch's baptism occurred before they both came up out of the water. From a Baptist interpretation, they see those two verses as teaching baptism by immersion, explicitly, by its use of their "going down into the water" and their "coming up out of the water." However, in the middle of those two clauses, it says that Philip baptized the eunuch. So, it is not likely that that passage is teaching baptism by immersion, or else you have to say that both the baptizer and the recipient must go under the water together. But your baptism in your video shows otherwise, lilymc.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  16. #134
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat;5825072But here is where you get inconsistent, lilymc. You cite Acts 8:38, where it says, "And he commanded the chariot to stand still, and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him," as a prooftext that baptism is by immersion, emphasizing the phrase "they went down both into the water." In your baptism video, there was only one person who "went down into the water" (you), even though the Acts 8:38 passage says that "they [B
    both[/B] went down into the water." So, given your hermeneutical standard, it would appear that your baptism was not done properly by the language of the text because the person who baptized you did not go "into the water" when you did. So, was it a valid immersion?
    No, no, no. You misunderstood me. I never claimed that they both went under water. My point was that it's obvious from the text that they both went into the pool of water - in other words, Philip was standing in the water, in order to baptize the eunuch. Re-read my post, and you will see that I said they were both standing in the water, which shows that it wasn't a baptism like in some churches, where the priest is dry and there is a bowl of water to sprinkle on a baby's forehead.

    Also, we find the same problem of sequence that I addressed in the Matthew 3 passage, concerning the action of going into the water and the act of being baptized. In Acts 8:38, it states, "And he commanded the chariot to stand still, and they went down both into the water, both Philip and the eunuch, and he baptized him." Notice that at the end of that passage, it tells us that Philip baptized the eunuch. But then in the beginning of Verse 39, we read, "And when they were come up out of the water..." So, the eunuch's baptism occurred before they both came up out of the water. From a Baptist interpretation, they see those two verses as teaching baptism by immersion, explicitly, by its use of their "going down into the water" and their "coming up out of the water." However, in the middle of those two clauses, it says that Philip baptized the eunuch. So, it is not likely that that passage is teaching baptism by immersion, or else you have to say that both the baptizer and the recipient must go under the water together. But your baptism in your video shows otherwise, lilymc.
    Again, my claim was not that they both went under water. I don't know how you got that out of my words. My claim was that they were both in some sort of pool of water... and that's where the baptism took place.

    Sometimes in a zeal to protect a church doctrine, common sense gets thrown out the window. If water baptism is only about a few sprinkles, why did John the Baptist baptize people in the Jordan River? Why did Philip and the eunuch go into a body of water - where the text is clear that they both were in? If a sprinkling of a few drops inside a church is the correct model, then the bible would have made that clear. Jesus would have been baptized in a church, with a few drops being sprinkled. But that's not the example we were given.

    As for the other stuff you posted... I'm sorry, but it's way too far out there for me to even want to address. The bible can be made to say just about anything, with enough adding on, twisting and reaching. I'll let JM or Kevin, or someone else reply to you on that.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  17. #135

    Be Careful of Your Assumptions

    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    No, no, no. You misunderstood me. I never claimed that they both went under water. My point was that it's obvious from the text that they both went into the pool of water - in other words, Philip was standing in the water, in order to baptize the eunuch. Re-read my post, and you will see that I said they were both standing in the water, which shows that it wasn't a baptism like in some churches, where the priest is dry and there is a bowl of water to sprinkle on a baby's forehead.



    Again, my claim was not that they both went under water. I don't know how you got that out of my words. My claim was that they were both in some sort of pool of water... and that's where the baptism took place.

    Sometimes in a zeal to protect a church doctrine, common sense gets thrown out the window. If water baptism is only about a few sprinkles, why did John the Baptist baptize people in the Jordan River? Why did Philip and the eunuch go into a body of water - where the text is clear that they both were in? If a sprinkling of a few drops inside a church is the correct model, then the bible would have made that clear. Jesus would have been baptized in a church, with a few drops being sprinkled. But that's not the example we were given.

    As for the other stuff you posted... I'm sorry, but it's way too far out there for me to even want to address. The bible can be made to say just about anything, with enough adding on, twisting and reaching. I'll let JM or Kevin, or someone else reply to you on that.
    Once again, just because there is a huge body of water where someone is getting baptized does not mean that baptism must be by immersion. As I mentioned, the apostle Paul reminds us that the Old Testament Church was baptized in a large body of water, too--the Red Sea. Yet, they were not immersed in the sea with water; they were baptized with water from the clouds above as they passed through the sea on dry ground. So, you're arguing from silence when you say that baptism must be by immersion because Jesus and others were present in rivers when they were baptized.

    Also, baptism is a cleansing or purification rite. In the Old Testament, all cleansings and purifications were done by sprinkling or pouring, whether they were done to people, holy objects, or sanctified places. That is where we begin in order to understand what baptism is and how it is to be administered because all Christian doctrines have their foundation in the Old Testament. Just because the culture used the Greek word baptizo to mean "immersion" does not mean that that's how Jewish believers would have used that term.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Jmdrake, this post just sounds like you're arguing for the sake of arguing. What you're forgetting is that God uses physical means to accomplish His spiritual blessings. He used men to write His word, and He ordains men to be governors of their homes, local churches, and civil magistrates. But just because God uses men to bring about His blessings does not mean that the blessing which is communicated through the instrument of those men is contingent on anything in them. That's why I said baptism points to God; it does not point to the persons who administer it, for it is not their sacrament but the Lord's.

    I'm not going to respond to your Constantine example because I've already made myself clear on the fallacy in which your example is based.
    Theocrat, you clearly don't know what a fallacy is. Constantine is a closer example to the Red Sea than the Red Sea is to actual baptism. Your biggest fallacy is that you've taken the symbolism Paul was using to make a point and turned it into literalism all the while ignoring the teaching that water baptism is a baptism of repentance.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 03-29-2015 at 10:44 PM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Once again, just because there is a huge body of water where someone is getting baptized does not mean that baptism must be by immersion. As I mentioned, the apostle Paul reminds us that the Old Testament Church was baptized in a large body of water, too--the Red Sea. Yet, they were not immersed in the sea with water; they were baptized with water from the clouds above as they passed through the sea on dry ground. So, you're arguing from silence when you say that baptism must be by immersion because Jesus and others were present in rivers when they were baptized.

    Also, baptism is a cleansing or purification rite. In the Old Testament, all cleansings and purifications were done by sprinkling or pouring, whether they were done to people, holy objects, or sanctified places. That is where we begin in order to understand what baptism is and how it is to be administered because all Christian doctrines have their foundation in the Old Testament. Just because the culture used the Greek word baptizo to mean "immersion" does not mean that that's how Jewish believers would have used that term.
    Paul was making a symbolic point. He was not endorsing a baptismal method. If he was then it is acceptable to baptize people who don't even realize it.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #138
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post



    Well, the issue on HOW to baptize is just one point. What some of us here have been saying is that there's no need for babies to be water baptized at all, immersion or not.

    Blessings or baby dedications are biblical, and serve the purpose that some here have claimed infant baptism is about..... So I'm honestly perplexed on why some people don't follow the biblical model when it comes to babies.
    While I don't believe baptism actually removes sin, I disagree with you on the point that babies are innocent. That's one big theological disagreement here.

    Another one is covenental continuity. Babies received the sign of the covenant in the OT, so why not now? That's the answer I'm still looking for.

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    I didn't say it was dealing with the child of believers. I posted that passage to show that baptism is by immersion, not sprinkling a few drops of water.

    As for verse 37 not being in all manuscripts...that is true, but from what I have seen, it is a few of the modern translations - which are known for being less accurate, and some would say even subversive (like the NIV) - that left out that verse. I'm not a KJV only person (and personally I don't like to read it because of the 'thees and thous') but I do believe that the KJV is more reliable than some of the modern translations. But that is a topic for another thread.
    What's wrong with the archaic 2nd person singular pronoun "thou"? I rather like it because, especially in old/ancient texts, it is clear when the speaker is addressing one person or a group. It's a nuance that's lost in modern English. JMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  23. #140
    Lookit what I found. Of course, it's not as invigorating as when you're alone out in the wilderness in the water without a camera pointed in your direction but kind of similar. Is actually how I "baptized" myself before the grown-ups dunked me conforming to their own little "official" ceremony. Everyone should try this sometime. I'm serious now. If you want to meet "God" then here is how it's done.

    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 03-29-2015 at 11:01 PM.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    While I don't believe baptism actually removes sin, I disagree with you on the point that babies are innocent. That's one big theological disagreement here.
    First... did you change your screen name? Were you FreedomFanatic before? If so, then you have Calvinist views, right?

    I totally disagree with your view that babies are not innocent. Not only does that go against common sense and intuition, but it goes against the scriptures too:

    This is speaking of child sacrifice... notice the word in bold:

    "Because they have forsaken Me and have made this an alien place and have burned sacrifices in it to other gods, that neither they nor their forefathers nor the kings of Judah had ever known, and because they have filled this place with the blood of the innocent... -Jeremiah 19:4


    They have no knowledge of good or evil:

    "Moreover, your little ones who you said would become a prey, and your sons, who this day have no knowledge of good or evil, shall enter there, and I will give it to them and they shall possess it." - Deuteronomy 1:39


    We are judged by our own actions, not the actions of our parents... and vice versa.

    "But he slew not their children, but did as it is written in the law in the book of Moses, where the Lord commanded, saying, The fathers shall not die for the children, neither shall the children die for the fathers, but every man shall die for his own sin." - 2 Chronicles 25:4

    "The person who sins will die. The son will not bear the punishment for the father's iniquity, nor will the father bear the punishment for the son's iniquity; the righteousness of the righteous will be upon himself, and the wickedness of the wicked will be upon himself." - Ezekiel 18:20


    There are hundreds more I could post, if I wanted to.


    Another one is covenental continuity. Babies received the sign of the covenant in the OT, so why not now? That's the answer I'm still looking for.
    While I do believe that water baptism is a sign or "seal" of our partaking in the New Covenant, we're talking about two entirely different covenants.

    Here's an excerpt from an article on this: (from gotquestions.org)

    While there are parallels between baptism and circumcision, they symbolize two very different covenants. The Old Covenant had a physical means of entrance: one was born to Jewish parents or bought as a servant into a Jewish household (Genesis 17:10-13). One’s spiritual life was unconnected to the sign of circumcision. Every male was circumcised, whether he showed any devotion to God or not. However, even in the Old Testament, there was recognition that physical circumcision was not enough. Moses commanded the Israelites in Deuteronomy 10:16 to circumcise their hearts, and even promised that God would do the circumcising (Deuteronomy 30:6). Jeremiah also preached the need for a circumcision of the heart (Jeremiah 4:4).

    In contrast, the New Covenant has a spiritual means of entrance: one must believe and be saved (Acts 16:31). Therefore, one’s spiritual life is closely connected to the sign of baptism. If baptism indicates an entrance into the New Covenant, then only those devoted to God and trusting in Jesus should be baptized.

    Also, this sermon talks a little bit about this correlation and the difference between circumcision and water baptism: (It's a long video, but it's worth listening to.) The part to pay close attention to starts at around 10 minutes and goes to 12:40.




    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34
    What's wrong with the archaic 2nd person singular pronoun "thou"? I rather like it because, especially in old/ancient texts, it is clear when the speaker is addressing one person or a group. It's a nuance that's lost in modern English. JMHO.
    Haha.... There's nothing wrong with it. I just personally prefer to read modern English that is clear (to me) over versions that are chock-full of archaic words that nobody uses. That said, I still read the KJV (along with other versions) because I believe the KJV is more accurate. Not because of the archaic wording, but because of how it's actually translated.
    Last edited by lilymc; 03-30-2015 at 12:40 AM.
    “I have no doubt that it is a part of the destiny of the human race, in its gradual improvement, to leave off eating animals, as surely as the savage tribes have left off eating each other.”

    ― Henry David Thoreau

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by Christian Liberty View Post
    While I don't believe baptism actually removes sin, I disagree with you on the point that babies are innocent. That's one big theological disagreement here.

    Another one is covenental continuity. Babies received the sign of the covenant in the OT, so why not now? That's the answer I'm still looking for.
    Uh... maybe because Jesus fulfilled the law and has told us to brome as little children or we cannot enter the Kingdom of Heaven? Just a thought.
    There is no spoon.

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Lookit what I found. Of course, it's not as invigorating as when you're alone out in the wilderness in the water without a camera pointed in your direction but kind of similar. Is actually how I "baptized" myself before the grown-ups dunked me conforming to their own little "official" ceremony. Everyone should try this sometime. I'm serious now. If you want to meet "God" then here is how it's done.

    Take me to the water!
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by lilymc View Post
    That too is a different topic, and one that we all debated til we were blue in the face, for months. I am not concerned with it, because I understand it --- not a distorted straw man version of it.

    As for baby baptism being 'harmless' - I beg to differ. It is dangerous if people don't realize that it is not about salvation. I have known people who believed they were saved or that their kids are saved - because of their baby baptism. If that is not dangerous, I don't know what is.

    John 3:5 King James Version (KJV)

    5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.
    This has to do with being born of woman. Since a baby sits in water for 9 months before being born.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #145
    Infant baptism is more about the parents than the child. It's a public display saying this is a Christian family, and we will raise this child with Christian values.

    It doesn't mean diddly for the child.

    I agree with whoever said earlier that Jesus saying "Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit..." is referring to a physical birth and a spiritual rebirth.

    You gotta be born before you can be born again.
    Last edited by Jamesiv1; 03-30-2015 at 01:07 PM.
    1. Don't lie.
    2. Don't cheat.
    3. Don't steal.
    4. Don't kill.
    5. Don't commit adultery.
    6. Don't covet what your neighbor has, especially his wife.
    7. Honor your father and mother.
    8. Remember the Sabbath and keep it Holy.
    9. Don’t use your Higher Power's name in vain, or anyone else's.
    10. Do unto others as you would have them do to you.

    "For the love of money is the root of all evil..." -- I Timothy 6:10, KJV

  30. #146
    The fallen angels and Satan are already condemned because they have not been born of woman. Christ was.

    Baptism has no baring on one's salvation.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  31. #147
    FWIW,
    Fundamentalists often criticize the Catholic Church’s practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children, because it is to be administered only after one has undergone a "born again" experience—that is, after one has "accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior." At the instant of acceptance, when he is "born again," the adult becomes a Christian, and his salvation is assured forever. Baptism follows, though it has no actual salvific value. In fact, one who dies before being baptized, but after "being saved," goes to heaven anyway.
    As Fundamentalists see it, baptism is not a sacrament (in the true sense of the word), but an ordinance. It does not in any way convey the grace it symbolizes; rather, it is merely a public manifestation of the person’s conversion. Since only an adult or older child can be converted, baptism is inappropriate for infants or for children who have not yet reached the age of reason (generally considered to be age seven). Most Fundamentalists say that during the years before they reach the age of reason infants and young children are automatically saved. Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to "accept Jesus" in order to reach heaven.
    Since the New Testament era, the Catholic Church has always understood baptism differently, teaching that it is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons.
    Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
    connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

    Christ Calls All to Baptism

    Although Fundamentalists are the most recent critics of infant baptism, opposition to infant baptism is not a new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages, some groups developed that rejected infant baptism, e.g., the Waldenses and Catharists. Later, the Anabaptists ("re-baptizers") echoed them, claiming that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).
    More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).
    Now Fundamentalists say this event does not apply to young children or infants since it implies the children to which Christ was referring were able to approach him on their own. (Older translations have, "Suffer the little children to come unto me," which seems to suggest they could do so under their own power.) Fundamentalists conclude the passage refers only to children old enough to walk, and, presumably, capable of sinning. But the text in Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means "infants"—children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious
    decision to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." And that is precisely the problem. Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said "let them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?

    In Place of Circumcision

    Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.
    This comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.

    Were Only Adults Baptized?

    Fundamentalists are reluctant to admit that the Bible nowhere says baptism is to be restricted to adults, but when pressed, they will. They just conclude that is what it should be taken as meaning, even if the text does not explicitly support such a view. Naturally enough, the people whose baptisms we read about in Scripture (and few are individually identified) are adults, because they were converted as adults. This makes sense, because Christianity was just beginning—there were no "cradle Christians," people brought up from childhood in Christian homes.
    Even in the books of the New Testament that were written later in the first century, during the time when children were raised in the first Christian homes, we never—not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized only upon making a "decision for Christ." Rather, it is always assumed that the children of Christian homes are already Christians, that they have already been "baptized into Christ" (Rom. 6:3). If infant baptism were not the rule, then we should have references to the children of Christian parents joining the Church only after they had come to the age of reason, and there are no such records in the Bible.

    Specific Biblical References?

    But, one might ask, does the Bible ever say that infants or young children can be baptized? The indications are clear. In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that "the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).
    In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that "he and his wife were baptized," but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture.
    Granted, we do not know the exact age of the children; they may have been past the age of reason, rather than infants. Then again, they could have been babes in arms. More probably, there were both younger and older children. Certainly there were children younger than the age of reason in some of the households that were baptized, especially if one considers that society at this time had no reliable form of birth control. Furthermore, given the New Testament pattern of household baptism, if there were to be exceptions to this rule (such as infants), they would be explicit.

    Catholics From the First

    The present Catholic attitude accords perfectly with early Christian practices. Origen, for instance, wrote in the third century that "according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants" (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 [A.D. 244]). The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, "The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

    No Cry of "Invention!"

    None of the Fathers or councils of the Church was claiming that the practice was contrary to Scripture or tradition. They agreed that the practice of baptizing infants was the customary and appropriate practice since the days of the early Church; the only uncertainty seemed to be when—exactly—an infant should be baptized. Further evidence that infant baptism was the accepted practice in the early Church is the fact that if infant baptism had been opposed to the religious practices of the first believers, why do we have no record of early Christian writers condemning it?
    But Fundamentalists try to ignore the historical writings from the early Church which clearly indicate the legitimacy of infant baptism. They attempt to sidestep appeals to history by saying baptism requires faith and, since children are incapable of having faith, they cannot be baptized. It is true that Christ prescribed instruction and actual faith for adult converts (Matt. 28:19–20), but his general law on the necessity of baptism (John 3:5) puts no restriction on the subjects of baptism. Although infants are included in the law he establishes, requirements of that law that are impossible to meet because of their age are not applicable to them. They cannot be expected to be instructed and have faith when they are incapable of receiving instruction or manifesting faith. The same was true of circumcision; faith in the Lord was necessary for an adult convert to receive it, but it was not necessary for the children of believers.
    Furthermore, the Bible never says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation except for infants"; it simply says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation." Yet Fundamentalists must admit there is an exception for infants unless they wish to condemn instantaneously all infants to hell. Therefore, the Fundamentalist himself makes an exception for infants regarding the necessity of faith for salvation. He can thus scarcely criticize the Catholic for making the exact same exception for baptism, especially if, as Catholics believe, baptism is an instrument of salvation.
    It becomes apparent, then, that the Fundamentalist position on infant baptism is not really a consequence of the Bible’s strictures, but of the demands of Fundamentalism’s idea of salvation. In reality, the Bible indicates that infants are to be baptized, that they too are meant to inherit the kingdom of heaven. Further, the witness of the earliest Christian practices and writings must once and for all silence those who criticize the Catholic Church’s teaching on infant baptism. The Catholic Church is merely continuing the tradition established by the first Christians, who heeded the words of Christ: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16).
    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    FWIW,
    Fundamentalists often criticize the Catholic Church’s practice of baptizing infants. According to them, baptism is for adults and older children, because it is to be administered only after one has undergone a "born again" experience—that is, after one has "accepted Jesus Christ as his personal Lord and Savior." At the instant of acceptance, when he is "born again," the adult becomes a Christian, and his salvation is assured forever. Baptism follows, though it has no actual salvific value. In fact, one who dies before being baptized, but after "being saved," goes to heaven anyway.
    As Fundamentalists see it, baptism is not a sacrament (in the true sense of the word), but an ordinance. It does not in any way convey the grace it symbolizes; rather, it is merely a public manifestation of the person’s conversion. Since only an adult or older child can be converted, baptism is inappropriate for infants or for children who have not yet reached the age of reason (generally considered to be age seven). Most Fundamentalists say that during the years before they reach the age of reason infants and young children are automatically saved. Only once a person reaches the age of reason does he need to "accept Jesus" in order to reach heaven.
    Since the New Testament era, the Catholic Church has always understood baptism differently, teaching that it is a sacrament which accomplishes several things, the first of which is the remission of sin, both original sin and actual sin—only original sin in the case of infants and young children, since they are incapable of actual sin; and both original and actual sin in the case of older persons.
    Peter explained what happens at baptism when he said, "Repent, and be baptized every one of you in the name of Jesus Christ for the forgiveness of your sins; and you shall receive the gift of the Holy Spirit" (Acts 2:38). But he did not restrict this teaching to adults. He added, "For the promise is to you and to your children and to all that are far off, every one whom the Lord our God calls to him" (2:39). We also read: "Rise and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on his name" (Acts 22:16). These commands are universal, not restricted to adults. Further, these commands make clear the necessary connection between baptism and salvation, a
    connection explicitly stated in 1 Peter 3:21: "Baptism . . . now saves you, not as a removal of dirt from the body but as an appeal to God for a clear conscience, through the resurrection of Jesus Christ."

    Christ Calls All to Baptism

    Although Fundamentalists are the most recent critics of infant baptism, opposition to infant baptism is not a new phenomenon. In the Middle Ages, some groups developed that rejected infant baptism, e.g., the Waldenses and Catharists. Later, the Anabaptists ("re-baptizers") echoed them, claiming that infants are incapable of being baptized validly. But the historic Christian Church has always held that Christ’s law applies to infants as well as adults, for Jesus said that no one can enter heaven unless he has been born again of water and the Holy Spirit (John 3:5). His words can be taken to apply to anyone capable of belonging to his kingdom. He asserted such even for children: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of heaven" (Matt. 19:14).
    More detail is given in Luke’s account of this event, which reads: "Now they were bringing even infants to him that he might touch them; and when the disciples saw it, they rebuked them. But Jesus called them to him, saying, ‘Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God’" (Luke 18:15–16).
    Now Fundamentalists say this event does not apply to young children or infants since it implies the children to which Christ was referring were able to approach him on their own. (Older translations have, "Suffer the little children to come unto me," which seems to suggest they could do so under their own power.) Fundamentalists conclude the passage refers only to children old enough to walk, and, presumably, capable of sinning. But the text in Luke 18:15 says, "Now they were bringing even infants to him" (Greek, Prosepheron de auto kai ta brepha). The Greek word brepha means "infants"—children who are quite unable to approach Christ on their own and who could not possibly make a conscious
    decision to "accept Jesus as their personal Lord and Savior." And that is precisely the problem. Fundamentalists refuse to permit the baptism of infants and young children, because they are not yet capable of making such a conscious act. But notice what Jesus said: "to such as these [referring to the infants and children who had been brought to him by their mothers] belongs the kingdom of heaven." The Lord did not require them to make a conscious decision. He says that they are precisely the kind of people who can come to him and receive the kingdom. So on what basis, Fundamentalists should be asked, can infants and young children be excluded from the sacrament of baptism? If Jesus said "let them come unto me," who are we to say "no," and withhold baptism from them?

    In Place of Circumcision

    Furthermore, Paul notes that baptism has replaced circumcision (Col. 2:11–12). In that passage, he refers to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ" and "the circumcision made without hands." Of course, usually only infants were circumcised under the Old Law; circumcision of adults was rare, since there were few converts to Judaism. If Paul meant to exclude infants, he would not have chosen circumcision as a parallel for baptism.
    This comparison between who could receive baptism and circumcision is an appropriate one. In the Old Testament, if a man wanted to become a Jew, he had to believe in the God of Israel and be circumcised. In the New Testament, if one wants to become a Christian, one must believe in God and Jesus and be baptized. In the Old Testament, those born into Jewish households could be circumcised in anticipation of the Jewish faith in which they would be raised. Thus in the New Testament, those born in Christian households can be baptized in anticipation of the Christian faith in which they will be raised. The pattern is the same: If one is an adult, one must have faith before receiving the rite of membership; if one is a child too young to have faith, one may be given the rite of membership in the knowledge that one will be raised in the faith. This is the basis of Paul’s reference to baptism as "the circumcision of Christ"—that is, the Christian equivalent of circumcision.

    Were Only Adults Baptized?

    Fundamentalists are reluctant to admit that the Bible nowhere says baptism is to be restricted to adults, but when pressed, they will. They just conclude that is what it should be taken as meaning, even if the text does not explicitly support such a view. Naturally enough, the people whose baptisms we read about in Scripture (and few are individually identified) are adults, because they were converted as adults. This makes sense, because Christianity was just beginning—there were no "cradle Christians," people brought up from childhood in Christian homes.
    Even in the books of the New Testament that were written later in the first century, during the time when children were raised in the first Christian homes, we never—not even once—find an example of a child raised in a Christian home who is baptized only upon making a "decision for Christ." Rather, it is always assumed that the children of Christian homes are already Christians, that they have already been "baptized into Christ" (Rom. 6:3). If infant baptism were not the rule, then we should have references to the children of Christian parents joining the Church only after they had come to the age of reason, and there are no such records in the Bible.

    Specific Biblical References?

    But, one might ask, does the Bible ever say that infants or young children can be baptized? The indications are clear. In the New Testament we read that Lydia was converted by Paul’s preaching and that "She was baptized, with her household" (Acts 16:15). The Philippian jailer whom Paul and Silas had converted to the faith was baptized that night along with his household. We are told that "the same hour of the night . . . he was baptized, with all his family" (Acts 16:33). And in his greetings to the Corinthians, Paul recalled that, "I did baptize also the household of Stephanas" (1 Cor. 1:16).
    In all these cases, whole households or families were baptized. This means more than just the spouse; the children too were included. If the text of Acts referred simply to the Philippian jailer and his wife, then we would read that "he and his wife were baptized," but we do not. Thus his children must have been baptized as well. The same applies to the other cases of household baptism in Scripture.
    Granted, we do not know the exact age of the children; they may have been past the age of reason, rather than infants. Then again, they could have been babes in arms. More probably, there were both younger and older children. Certainly there were children younger than the age of reason in some of the households that were baptized, especially if one considers that society at this time had no reliable form of birth control. Furthermore, given the New Testament pattern of household baptism, if there were to be exceptions to this rule (such as infants), they would be explicit.

    Catholics From the First

    The present Catholic attitude accords perfectly with early Christian practices. Origen, for instance, wrote in the third century that "according to the usage of the Church, baptism is given even to infants" (Holilies on Leviticus, 8:3:11 [A.D. 244]). The Council of Carthage, in 253, condemned the opinion that baptism should be withheld from infants until the eighth day after birth. Later, Augustine taught, "The custom of Mother Church in baptizing infants is certainly not to be scorned . . . nor is it to be believed that its tradition is anything except apostolic" (Literal Interpretation of Genesis 10:23:39 [A.D. 408]).

    No Cry of "Invention!"

    None of the Fathers or councils of the Church was claiming that the practice was contrary to Scripture or tradition. They agreed that the practice of baptizing infants was the customary and appropriate practice since the days of the early Church; the only uncertainty seemed to be when—exactly—an infant should be baptized. Further evidence that infant baptism was the accepted practice in the early Church is the fact that if infant baptism had been opposed to the religious practices of the first believers, why do we have no record of early Christian writers condemning it?
    But Fundamentalists try to ignore the historical writings from the early Church which clearly indicate the legitimacy of infant baptism. They attempt to sidestep appeals to history by saying baptism requires faith and, since children are incapable of having faith, they cannot be baptized. It is true that Christ prescribed instruction and actual faith for adult converts (Matt. 28:19–20), but his general law on the necessity of baptism (John 3:5) puts no restriction on the subjects of baptism. Although infants are included in the law he establishes, requirements of that law that are impossible to meet because of their age are not applicable to them. They cannot be expected to be instructed and have faith when they are incapable of receiving instruction or manifesting faith. The same was true of circumcision; faith in the Lord was necessary for an adult convert to receive it, but it was not necessary for the children of believers.
    Furthermore, the Bible never says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation except for infants"; it simply says, "Faith in Christ is necessary for salvation." Yet Fundamentalists must admit there is an exception for infants unless they wish to condemn instantaneously all infants to hell. Therefore, the Fundamentalist himself makes an exception for infants regarding the necessity of faith for salvation. He can thus scarcely criticize the Catholic for making the exact same exception for baptism, especially if, as Catholics believe, baptism is an instrument of salvation.
    It becomes apparent, then, that the Fundamentalist position on infant baptism is not really a consequence of the Bible’s strictures, but of the demands of Fundamentalism’s idea of salvation. In reality, the Bible indicates that infants are to be baptized, that they too are meant to inherit the kingdom of heaven. Further, the witness of the earliest Christian practices and writings must once and for all silence those who criticize the Catholic Church’s teaching on infant baptism. The Catholic Church is merely continuing the tradition established by the first Christians, who heeded the words of Christ: "Let the children come to me, and do not hinder them; for to such belongs the kingdom of God" (Luke 18:16).
    http://www.catholic.com/tracts/infant-baptism
    lol. Nice try. Household doesn't mean infants.
    Ephesians 2:8-9-

    8 For it is by grace you have been saved, through faith—and this is not from yourselves, it is the gift of God— 9 not by works, so that no one can boast.

  33. #149

    Oh, Really?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Paul was making a symbolic point. He was not endorsing a baptismal method. If he was then it is acceptable to baptize people who don't even realize it.
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

    "May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Once again, just because there is a huge body of water where someone is getting baptized does not mean that baptism must be by immersion. As I mentioned, the apostle Paul reminds us that the Old Testament Church was baptized in a large body of water, too--the Red Sea. Yet, they were not immersed in the sea with water; they were baptized with water from the clouds above as they passed through the sea on dry ground. So, you're arguing from silence when you say that baptism must be by immersion because Jesus and others were present in rivers when they were baptized.

    Also, baptism is a cleansing or purification rite. In the Old Testament, all cleansings and purifications were done by sprinkling or pouring, whether they were done to people, holy objects, or sanctified places. That is where we begin in order to understand what baptism is and how it is to be administered because all Christian doctrines have their foundation in the Old Testament. Just because the culture used the Greek word baptizo to mean "immersion" does not mean that that's how Jewish believers would have used that term.
    I have recently met a baptist (and heard a sermon from another) who were OK with sprinkling, but they objected to paedobaptism on the grounds that baptism was for the purpose of initiating priests, and in the NT believers are to be baptized as priests. The argument is that baptism connects with the priestly cleansings, not circumcision.

    Do you have any thoughts on that?

Page 5 of 6 FirstFirst ... 3456 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Replies: 8
    Last Post: 04-01-2012, 05:25 PM
  2. When Do Babies...
    By ShaneEnochs in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 29
    Last Post: 11-26-2011, 05:33 PM
  3. Babies?
    By Reason in forum Open Discussion
    Replies: 8
    Last Post: 12-04-2010, 10:01 PM
  4. American Vision - Baptized Inflation
    By PureCommonSense in forum Economy & Markets
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 04-13-2009, 01:59 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •