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Thread: Before 300: Was Early Christianity Overtly Roman Catholic?

  1. #121
    The essential structures that define both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy didn't exist until well after AD 300.

    But I would agree that as early as 325 the Council of Nicaea represents a major watershed moment paving the way for those denominations, since that's really the first time since the death of the apostles that you have some group that pretended to have the authority to speak for the entire Church universal.



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  3. #122
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    The essential structures that define both Roman Catholicism and Eastern Orthodoxy didn't exist until well after AD 300.

    But I would agree that as early as 325 the Council of Nicaea represents a major watershed moment paving the way for those denominations, since that's really the first time since the death of the apostles that you have some group that pretended to have the authority to speak for the entire Church universal.
    I used to think that this was a matter of sour grapes to argue this position against the proclamations of pedigree of the historic churches. I think one should look long and hard at the fruits of the churches and reason out the fruit of said pedigrees and its effect on the course of humankind. To withdraw personal biases from ones own spiritual trajectory and think of the whole purpose to the entirety of the situation as it stands now. Thinking along the lines of everything has a season and a purpose but just because it is so does not necessarily mean we should bow down to it.

    The victors write history. The Pharisees were deeply loyal to a fault and acknowledged as rightful by the people but we know the story of how far off course good intentions can become and how it is a struggle to stay the course.

    What was lost due to the necessity seen for centralization during the period in which the ground became fertile for such groups to demand they be acknowledged as the authorities on the Spirit?
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  4. #123
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    I used to think that this was a matter of sour grapes to argue this position against the proclamations of pedigree of the historic churches. I think one should look long and hard at the fruits of the churches and reason out the fruit of said pedigrees and its effect on the course of humankind. To withdraw personal biases from ones own spiritual trajectory and think of the whole purpose to the entirety of the situation as it stands now. Thinking along the lines of everything has a season and a purpose but just because it is so does not necessarily mean we should bow down to it.

    The victors write history. The Pharisees were deeply loyal to a fault and acknowledged as rightful by the people but we know the story of how far off course good intentions can become and how it is a struggle to stay the course.

    What was lost due to the necessity seen for centralization during the period in which the ground became fertile for such groups to demand they be acknowledged as the authorities on the Spirit?
    Can you think of any other historic instances of a state empire that executes someone and then hijacks and corrupts his religion for a new pagan state religion several centuries later?

  5. #124
    If you look at the ancient church communities in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, etc. who trace their roots to the Apostles, and even remote ancient Christian communities unaffected by Roman domination in India, Ethiopian, Ireland, etc. You can't help but notice their uncannily and uniterrupted strict adherence to the Calvinist 5 point system that they all have in common that has been maintained from the beginning.
    Last edited by RJB; 03-25-2015 at 11:07 AM.

  6. #125
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Can you think of any other historic instances of a state empire that executes someone and then hijacks and corrupts his religion for a new pagan state religion several centuries later?
    Pretty much all empires. I doubt there have every been any that didn't do that.

  7. #126
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    If you look at the ancient church communities in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, etc.
    All Christians everywhere trace their roots to the apostles.

  8. #127
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    What was lost due to the necessity seen for centralization during the period in which the ground became fertile for such groups to demand they be acknowledged as the authorities on the Spirit?
    Nothing was lost. The apostolic faith has never disappeared, and neither have the writings the apostles left us.

    But christendom has, from the very beginning, had corruptions in it, and many of them have spread throughout it like leaven, as the apostles warned us they would.

  9. #128
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    All Christians everywhere trace their roots to the apostles.
    True, but I would guess the original Church communities such as Antioch, founded by St. Peter, (Of which HB could probably tell you more about) has a much more direct link to the roots than say Augsburg or Worms.



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  11. #129
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    True, but I would guess the original Church communities such as Antioch, founded by St. Peter, (Of which HB could probably tell you more about) has a much more direct link to the roots than say Augsburg or Worms.
    Peter didn't found the church in Antioch. And nobody from the church in Antioch that was founded in the apostles' days is still alive. I don't see why just being in that geographic location would give someone a more direct connection to the apostles than being anywhere else. But if it did, there would be no reason I couldn't just go there and experience whatever that connection is.

  12. #130
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Nothing was lost. The apostolic faith has never disappeared, and neither have the writings the apostles left us.

    But christendom has, from the very beginning, had corruptions in it, and many of them have spread throughout it like leaven, as the apostles warned us they would.
    Well, suppose you could try telling that to the women who have been dehumanized through the centuries thanks to the selective nature of the valid history chosen or for that matter any of the victims of organized religion. Plenty was lost depending on how you look at things as regards the individual through time but the die was cast long ago so maybe what matters to ourselves is what part we play in the whole scheme of the drama unfolding each day.

    Centralization preserves a continuity for those who seize power of any institution especially when they investigate themselves and deem themselves the only credible source of enlightenment on the subject matter. Sometimes, the management overshoots the runway and finds no good deed goes unpunished and that which they seek to be sole purveyor of is greater than the authority which they claim to have in that arena.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  13. #131
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Pretty much all empires. I doubt there have every been any that didn't do that.
    Any specific examples you would care to cite?

  14. #132
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Well, suppose you could try telling that to the women who have been dehumanized through the centuries thanks to the selective nature of the valid history chosen or for that matter any of the victims of organized religion. Plenty was lost depending on how you look at things as regards the individual through time but the die was cast long ago so maybe what matters to ourselves is what part we play in the whole scheme of the drama unfolding each day.

    Centralization preserves a continuity for those who seize power of any institution especially when they investigate themselves and deem themselves the only credible source of enlightenment on the subject matter. Sometimes, the management overshoots the runway and finds no good deed goes unpunished and that which they seek to be sole purveyor of is greater than the authority which they claim to have in that arena.
    I don't mean that there was no cost for those things. But false Christianity existed alongside the true faith, it didn't destroy it.

    Also, all over the world, all throughout history, women have been treated in all sorts of unjust ways. This includes cultures that were dominated by various forms of Christianity. But the truth is, in comparison with what has been the norm throughout history, and still is in many places, Christianity has brought a great deal of liberation to women.

  15. #133
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Peter didn't found the church in Antioch. And nobody from the church in Antioch that was founded in the apostles' days is still alive. I don't see why just being in that geographic location would give someone a more direct connection to the apostles than being anywhere else. But if it did, there would be no reason I couldn't just go there and experience whatever that connection is.
    Same reason Rome and Greece are significant. They're original patricarchates established by the apostles directly or through others with authority handed down by the apostles.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Patriarchate
    Patriarchate

    From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

    A patriarchate is the office or jurisdiction of a patriarch. A patriarch, as the term is used here, is either,






    The five patriarchs of the Pentarchy sat in Rome, Constantinople (now Istanbul), Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem. The East-West Schism of 1054 split the Latin-speaking see of Rome from the four Greek-speaking patriarchates, forming distinct Roman Catholic and Eastern Orthodox Churches. The Eastern Orthodox Patriarch of Antioch moved to Damascus in the 13th century, during the reign of the Egyptian Mamelukes, conquerors of Syria. In Damascus a Christian community had flourished since apostolic times (Acts 9). However, the patriarchate is still called the Patriarchate of Antioch. Damascus is the seat also of the Syrian Catholic and the Melkite Catholic Patriarchs of Antioch, while the Maronite Catholic of Antioch lives in Bkerké, Lebanon.[3]
    The four early Orthodox patriarchates of the East, Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, along with their counterpart in the West, Rome, are distinguished[by whom?] as "senior" (Greek: πρεσβυγενή, presbygenē, "senior-born") or "ancient" (παλαίφατα, palaíphata, "of ancient fame") and are among the apostolic sees, having had one of the Apostles or Evangelists as their first bishop: Andrew, Mark, Peter, James, and Peter again, respectively.
    A patriarchate has "legal personality" in some legal jurisdictions, that means it is treated as a corporation. For example, the Orthodox Patriarchate of Jerusalem filed a lawsuit in New York, decided in 1999, against Christie's Auction House, disputing the ownership of the Archimedes Palimpsest.
    The head of the Czechoslovak Hussite Church is also called a Patriarch.

    http://orthodoxwiki.org/Patriarchate
    Patriarchate
    A patriarchate is an autocephalous Orthodox church whose primate has the title of patriarch.

    The current patriarchates of the Orthodox Church are the four ancient patriarchates of the Pentarchy, the Churches of Constantinople, Alexandria, Antioch, and Jerusalem, along with the newer patriarchates, the Churches of Russia, Serbia, Romania, Bulgaria, and Georgia.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  16. #134
    But those patriarchates didn't exist until the 6th century.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy

    Like I said in my first post, the EOC didn't exist until long after AD 300.

  17. #135
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I don't mean that there was no cost for those things. But false Christianity existed alongside the true faith, it didn't destroy it.

    Also, all over the world, all throughout history, women have been treated in all sorts of unjust ways. This includes cultures that were dominated by various forms of Christianity. But the truth is, in comparison with what has been the norm throughout history, and still is in many places, Christianity has brought a great deal of liberation to women.
    I think we are on the same page. I never intended to imply that the Faith was destroyed but that the victors write history then dismiss alternative dialogues based upon their own authority by which they dismiss alternative dialogues. It becomes a circular argument with which one must step out of the self confirming loop to say but "what if"...

    The plight of women was merely an illustrative point not a bone to pick with which anyone needs to feel defensive. The reason anyone in humanity has ever had their lot in life improved was because of Love imo.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  18. #136
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Any specific examples you would care to cite?
    Well, I'm most familiar with the empires that controlled the Levant over the periods of the Old and New Testaments. These would include at least Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Macedonia and its offshoots, and Rome. And all of those empires appropriated previously existing religions to ingratiate themselves to the masses and legitimize their authority over them. For example, the elites of Jerusalem in the time of Jesus, both among the priesthood and the Pharisees, were beneficiaries of patronage from Rome. They were essentially surrogates of the empire. But this wasn't just true of their cult, but also of others like it throughout the empire, and likewise with the other empires I mentioned.

    The distinction between politics and religion that we have today was unthinkable in the premodern world.
    Last edited by erowe1; 03-25-2015 at 01:13 PM.



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  20. #137
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Well, I'm most familiar with the empires that controlled the Levant over the periods of the Old and New Testaments. These would include at least Egypt, Assyria, Babylon, Persia, Macedonia and its offshoots, and Rome. And all of those empires appropriated previously existing religions to ingratiate themselves to the masses and legitimize their authority over them. For example, the elites of Jerusalem, both among the priesthood and the Pharisees, were beneficiaries of patronage from Rome. They were essentially surrogates of the empire. But this wasn't just true of their cult, but also of others like it throughout the empire, and likewise with the other empires I mentioned.

    The distinction between politics and religion that we have today was unthinkable in the premodern world.
    Hence, one of my favorite quotes .....

    "Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be. The ends do NOT justify the means."

  21. #138
    Back up. What started this was a post from me that was very flattering to Protestants (and those Protestants who claim not to be Protestants.) I was severely disappointed when I wasn’t inundated with “positive rep” from these Protestants for posting that. That leads me to believe that you think that this is a ridiculous statement:

    If you look at the ancient church communities in Jerusalem, Antioch, Alexandria, etc. who trace their roots to the Apostles, and even remote ancient Christian communities unaffected by Roman domination in India, Ethiopian, Ireland, etc. You can't help but notice their uncannily and uniterrupted strict adherence to the Calvinist 5 point system that they all have in common that has been maintained from the beginning.
    Do you believe that this is a ridiculous statement and why?

    The OP was asking if Christians were overwhelmingly Catholic in the first 300 years and many here have said they were not, without being able to say what they were. If there was a bunch of Christians who were not “C”atholics, surely you can point to such a community that has held fast to your beliefs from 33 AD who aren’t (Eastern or Oriental) Orthodox or Roman Catholic.





    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    But those patriarchates didn't exist until the 6th century.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pentarchy

    Like I said in my first post, the EOC didn't exist until long after AD 300.

  22. #139
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Hence, one of my favorite quotes .....

    "Religion and politics are both the very same thing. They are both only, very old and very effective, means to control large masses of people. It has always only been that way, and it always only will be. The ends do NOT justify the means."
    Is there a value statement (good/bad) to that quote in the context it was pulled from? Praxaeology tells us that masses of people will form authority structures of some sort by nature to prevent entropy as best as possible.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  23. #140
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    The OP was asking if Christians were overwhelmingly Catholic in the first 300 years and many here have said they were not, without being able to say what they were.
    Christians.

    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    If there was a bunch of Christians who were not “C”atholics, surely you can point to such a community that has held fast to your beliefs from 33 AD who aren’t (Eastern or Oriental) Orthodox or Roman Catholic.
    Correct. Nobody can point to any community that has held fast to any beliefs from AD 33 until today. The Church has held fast to the Gospel. But the Church when viewed as a worldwide body is made up by all true believers united to one another in a spiritual way, regardless of their memberships in any organized communities. This worldwide body has always included various conglomerations of individual believers who united with one another outwardly in local assemblies and in groups of local assemblies that had close relationships to one another. Such things existed in AD 33, and such things exist today. But there do not exist any today that can trace back their organizational history to any groups as far back as AD 33 through some kind of apostolic succession of laying on of hands or anything like that.

  24. #141
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Christians.



    Correct. Nobody can point to any community that has held fast to any beliefs from AD 33 until today. The Church has held fast to the Gospel. But the Church when viewed as a worldwide body is made up by all true believers united to one another in a spiritual way, regardless of their memberships in any organized communities. This worldwide body has always included various conglomerations of individual believers who united with one another outwardly in local assemblies and in groups of local assemblies that had close relationships to one another. Such things existed in AD 33, and such things exist today. But there do not exist any today that can trace back their organizational history to any groups as far back as AD 33 through some kind of apostolic succession of laying on of hands or anything like that.
    You sound a bit envious, Erowe1. Sour grapes, perhaps?

  25. #142
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    You sound a bit envious, Erowe1. Sour grapes, perhaps?
    I might be. Maybe I should move to Antioch so that I can be at the right longitude and latitude to connect myself to the church of the apostles.

  26. #143
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I might be. Maybe I should move to Antioch so that I can be at the right longitude and latitude to connect myself to the church of the apostles.
    No need to move. Talk to HB. He can hook you up with that!

    BTW can you point to a community of 5 point Calvinists who started their community in 300 AD, 500 AD, or even 1000 AD?

  27. #144
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    No need to move. Talk to HB. He can hook you up with that!

    BTW can you point to a community of 5 point Calvinists who started their community in 300 AD, 500 AD, or even 1000 AD?
    Since the five points of Calvinism was a reaction to the five articles of remonstrance in 1610, I don't know how your question could be a possibility.



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  29. #145
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    No need to move. Talk to HB. He can hook you up with that!

    BTW can you point to a community of 5 point Calvinists who started their community in 300 AD, 500 AD, or even 1000 AD?
    I don't know about 5 point Calvinists. But the doctrines that you probably have in mind were taught by Jesus and his apostles, and held by the churches they founded, so there's that. If that's not good enough for you, there's the Synod of Orange of 529, as well as the Synod of Valence of 855.
    Last edited by erowe1; 03-25-2015 at 02:23 PM.

  30. #146
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Is there a value statement (good/bad) to that quote in the context it was pulled from? Praxaeology tells us that masses of people will form authority structures of some sort by nature to prevent entropy as best as possible.
    Over time, I have lost the source and context.

    I tend to kinda doubt that the mass is any too concerned with preventing entropy.

    I think they're mostly just lost sheeple (the 80% with 20% of the brains), begging for shepherds.
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 03-25-2015 at 02:31 PM.

  31. #147
    RJB, Here is a history lesson. The early "church" began very early to lose the gospel of grace that Paul taught:

    Kenneth Escott Kirk writes:
    “St. Paul's indignant wonder was evoked by the reversion of a small province of the Christian Church [Galatia] to the legalistic spirit of the Jewish religion. Had he lived half a century or a century later, his cause for amazement would have been increased a hundredfold. The example of the Galatians might be thought to have infected the entire Christian Church; writer after writer seems to have little other interest than to express the genius of Christianity wholly in terms of law and obedience, reward and punishment.”

    J. L. Neve carefully documents in the apostolic fathers how quickly after the age of Paul—doubtless due to Jewish and Hellenistic influences without and the tug of the Pelagian heart within—the emphasis in their preaching and writings on soteriology fell more and more upon human works and their merit and upon moralism.

    J. N. D. Kelly reaches similar conclusions. Richard Lovelace affirms:

    "By the early second century it is clear that Christians had come to think of themselves as being justified through being sanctified, accepted as righteous according to their actual obedience to the new Law of Christ."

    And Thomas F. Torrance, in his The Doctrine of Grace in the Apostolic Fathers—whose entire work is an inquiry into the literature of the apostolic fathers, that is to say, into the Didache of the Twelve Apostles, the First Epistle of Clement, the Epistles of Ignatius, the Epistle of Polycarp, the Epistle of Barnabas, the Shepherd of Hermas, and the Second Epistle of Clement, in order to discern how and why such a great divergence away from the teaching of the New Testament occurred in their understanding of salvation—concludes his research by saying:

    “In the Apostolic Fathers grace did not have [the] radical character [that it had in the New Testament]. The great presupposition of the Christian life, for them, was not a deed of decisive significance that cut across human life and set it on a wholly new basis grounded upon the self-giving of God. What took absolute precedence was God's call to a new life in obedience to revealed truth. Grace, as far as it was grasped, was subsidiary to that. And so religion was thought of primarily in terms of man's acts toward God, in the striving toward justification, much less in terms of God's acts for man which put him in the right with God once and for all. “...Salvation is wrought, they thought, certainly by divine pardon but on the ground of repentance, not apparently on the ground of the death of Christ alone.… It was not seen that the whole of salvation is centred in the person and death of Christ, for there God has Himself come into the world and wrought a final act of redemption which undercuts all our own endeavours at self-justification, and places us in an entirely new situation in which faith alone saves a man, and through which alone is a man free to do righteousness spontaneously under the constraining love of Christ. That was not understood by the apostolic fathers, and it is the primary reason for the degeneration of their Christian faith into something so different from the New Testament.”

    Thus the early post-apostolic church's sub-Christian soteriological deliverances launched the church on a doctrinal trajectory that moved virtually the entire church (there was always a “remnant” that put up resistance) away from the pristine Pauline teaching on salvation by pure grace and justification by faith alone, a trajectory that eventually came to expression in Pelagianism, Semi-Pelagianism, and Semi-Semi-Pelagianism, that then found formal expression in the system of Thomas Aquinas, and finally became the hardened official position of the Roman Catholic Church at the Council of Trent.

    - See more at: http://trinityfoundation.org/journal....xXSV3oyv.dpuf

  32. #148
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I don't know about 5 point Calvinists. But the doctrines that you probably have in mind were taught by Jesus and his apostles
    Oh yeah. I know "Faith Alone" is mentioned by name once in James. Although I haven't seen "Double Predestination" and others mention by name in the Bible. Were these apostolic traditions?

    , and held by the churches they founded, so there's that. If that's not good enough for you, there's the Synod of Orange of 529.
    I was talking more like isolated communities not affected by the domination of Rome who had a chance to flourish with varying Christian beliefs. Ireland for instance was never conquered by Rome, yet they are very distinctly Catholic. Even far flung places such as India's early Christian community has held onto Orthodox beliefs. Ethiopian's have been traditionally Oriental Orthodox.

    Pretty much every ancient Christian community I've read about has and still does hold on to a Catholic tradition (The Sacraments, etc.)

  33. #149
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    RJB, Here is a history lesson. The early "church" began very early to lose the gospel of grace that Paul taught:
    Thank you, Sola. So where are the ancient 5 Point Calvinist communities that survived, hidden in remote mountains and far off places like India from antiquity?

  34. #150
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Thank you, Sola. So where are the ancient 5 Point Calvinist communities that survived, hidden in remote mountains and far off places like India from antiquity?
    How could a community survive from antiquity?

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