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Thread: Is the US national "debt" an illusion?

  1. #1

    Is the US national "debt" an illusion?

    I tend to agree with many of the forward-thinking viewpoints that are shared on liberty-oriented forums. However, I feel there is misinformation being circulated regarding the US national debt. The core question that must be answered: What is the national wealth?

    Private wealth in the US is almost $70 trillion. But dig deeper: What is the mineral wealth in our national parkland? What are the Rocky Mountains, Mendocino County, and ANWR worth? What is the aggregate oil wealth in public lands? What is the value of the US military in the jungle of international relations?

    I argue that the $18 Trillion national debt pales in comparison to the national wealth of the United States. There is no better example of this than the revenue generated from Obama's successful energy exploration campaign.

    When you take a look at the massive swaths of valuable land held by the federal government, it becomes clear that the total federally-owned real estate, oil, minerals, etc. within the borders of the USA could be valued in the quadrillions of dollars.

    One thing has become increasingly clear to me: the United States HAS debt, but it is really not IN debt.

    The purpose of the Federal Reserve is to govern the people through the money supply. The threat of hyperinflation or deflationary depression is exaggerated. The resource wealth of the United States - as well as the large, rich, taxable population - provides a backstop that keeps our currency strong, even in expansionary environments.

    I believe this backstop is far more valuable than prior generations' use of precious metal reserves. I concede gold and silver are more tangible, but defining the national wealth by reserves of scarce metals is nothing more than a form of social brainwashing intended to keep resource-rich Americans feeling poor.

    Conspiracy theorists and John Birchers who measure the national debt against gold reserves are engaging in monetary child's play. However, the Federal Reserve's ability to spend the past decade in crisis while hiding the money supply (M3) from the American public is brilliant. A brilliant scam that must come to an end in the United States, as it has in central banks throughout Europe and across the globe.

    The strength of the dollar in FOREX markets in the wake of QE3 invalidates many conspiracy theories. As a market student and participant, I believe the dollar is legitimately strong and would remain strong through QE4, QE5, and QE6.

    Is it time to end the myth of false scarcity? Is the easy answer - a dramatic increase in the debt ceiling to fund the Small Business Administration, Farm Service Agency, and regional banks - the best path for the US economy?

    Recently an interesting statistic was released. The USA has fewer corporations today than 40 years ago, despite having three times as many citizens. If "corporations are people," do we just need more "people?"

    Or is a multi-decade Japanese-style depression a better way to break the will of American men, break the daughters of the revolution into prostitution, seize American's weapons, and ultimately rejoin the British Crown and join the New/Old World Order?

    I ask that question only half-sarcastically, because that appears to be the the intent of the current world order, and the path the Untied States is headed. Especially if either Hillary "Forester de Rothschild-RHODam" Clinton, or Jeb "Lehman is now Barclays" Bush are elected president.

    This is serious business.

    Sure, a new monetary system would be nice. But is a total revolution possible? Perhaps it is time to submit to reality, and finally admit that Reagan was right.

    Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of a new hashtag.
    Last edited by Matthew Libman; 03-10-2015 at 04:15 PM. Reason: Formatting



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  3. #2

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

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    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  4. #3
    Pfizer Macht Frei!

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  5. #4
    ... so to whom is the National Debt owed? The people? China? The Federal Reserve?

    If the money / currency is owed to the People, why dont we ever get paid for what they "borrowed"? If they dont plan on ever giving that money back, namely the value of our currency, is that not a form of THEFT?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  6. #5
    Last I checked, China has about eleven percent of it and the Fed about 13 percent. A lot is held in retirement accounts and mutual funds.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    ... so to whom is the National Debt owed? The people? China? The Federal Reserve?

    If the money / currency is owed to the People, why dont we ever get paid for what they "borrowed"? If they dont plan on ever giving that money back, namely the value of our currency, is that not a form of THEFT?
    We owe it to ourselves, mundane! Now stop questioning the Official Story. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...urselves/?_r=0
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    We owe it to ourselves, mundane! Now stop questioning the Official Story. http://krugman.blogs.nytimes.com/201...urselves/?_r=0


    you are SO smart! I wish I could be like you!
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Last I checked, China has about eleven percent of it and the Fed about 13 percent. A lot is held in retirement accounts and mutual funds.
    That's just a quarter . Excellent .



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Libman View Post
    I tend to agree with many of the forward-thinking viewpoints that are shared on liberty-oriented forums. However, I feel there is misinformation being circulated regarding the US national debt. The core question that must be answered: What is the national wealth?

    Private wealth in the US is almost $70 trillion. But dig deeper: What is the mineral wealth in our national parkland? What are the Rocky Mountains, Mendocino County, and ANWR worth? What is the aggregate oil wealth in public lands? What is the value of the US military in the jungle of international relations?

    I argue that the $18 Trillion national debt pales in comparison to the national wealth of the United States. There is no better example of this than the revenue generated from Obama's successful energy exploration campaign.

    When you take a look at the massive swaths of valuable land held by the federal government, it becomes clear that the total federally-owned real estate, oil, minerals, etc. within the borders of the USA could be valued in the quadrillions of dollars.

    One thing has become increasingly clear to me: the United States HAS debt, but it is really not IN debt.

    The purpose of the Federal Reserve is to govern the people through the money supply. The threat of hyperinflation or deflationary depression is exaggerated. The resource wealth of the United States - as well as the large, rich, taxable population - provides a backstop that keeps our currency strong, even in expansionary environments.

    I believe this backstop is far more valuable than prior generations' use of precious metal reserves. I concede gold and silver are more tangible, but defining the national wealth by reserves of scarce metals is nothing more than a form of social brainwashing intended to keep resource-rich Americans feeling poor.

    Conspiracy theorists and John Birchers who measure the national debt against gold reserves are engaging in monetary child's play. However, the Federal Reserve's ability to spend the past decade in crisis while hiding the money supply (M3) from the American public is brilliant. A brilliant scam that must come to an end in the United States, as it has in central banks throughout Europe and across the globe.

    The strength of the dollar in FOREX markets in the wake of QE3 invalidates many conspiracy theories. As a market student and participant, I believe the dollar is legitimately strong and would remain strong through QE4, QE5, and QE6.

    Is it time to end the myth of false scarcity? Is the easy answer - a dramatic increase in the debt ceiling to fund the Small Business Administration, Farm Service Agency, and regional banks - the best path for the US economy?

    Recently an interesting statistic was released. The USA has fewer corporations today than 40 years ago, despite having three times as many citizens. If "corporations are people," do we just need more "people?"

    Or is a multi-decade Japanese-style depression a better way to break the will of American men, break the daughters of the revolution into prostitution, seize American's weapons, and ultimately rejoin the British Crown and join the New/Old World Order?

    I ask that question only half-sarcastically, because that appears to be the the intent of the current world order, and the path the Untied States is headed. Especially if either Hillary "Forester de Rothschild-RHODam" Clinton, or Jeb "Lehman is now Barclays" Bush are elected president.
    This is serious business.

    Sure, a new monetary system would be nice. But is a total revolution possible? Perhaps it is time to submit to reality, and finally admit that Reagan was right.

    Mine eyes have seen the glory of the coming of a new hashtag.
    Yes it is an illusion , because it is much higher than you may think , I see no unfunded liabilities in this number or interest.Also , it costs money to get minerals out of the ground .You should try it some time.I am available for consulting fees.And yes , it really is in debt .If you mean it cannot be pd and never will , then I agree
    , if you mean giving more money to Fed govt , USDA etc , please put down the crack pipe.

  12. #10
    I guess if you are going to be stupid, you deserve to be poor. All good.

  13. #11
    Apparently not an illusion based on every FRN I've ever seen.

    If it is, then why are we paying "illusion" interest billions annually?

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Libman View Post
    I guess if you are going to be stupid, you deserve to be poor. All good.
    From your own stupid screed.

    The purpose of the Federal Reserve is to govern the people through the money supply. The threat of hyperinflation or deflationary depression is exaggerated. The resource wealth of the United States - as well as the large, rich, taxable population - provides a backstop that keeps our currency strong, even in expansionary environments.

    So the debt doesn't matter because the U.S. can tax more rich people? How exactly is your belief system supposed to lift me from poverty?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

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    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #13
    I have wealth .Very little of it is in FRN's.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Libman View Post
    I argue that the $18 Trillion national debt pales in comparison to the national wealth of the United States. There is no better example of this than the revenue generated from Obama's successful energy exploration campaign.
    This is where I stopped reading because it is obviously a joke.
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

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  17. #15
    The debt isn't an illusion, it is a real number that will never go down unless paid. Your wealth numbers are illusions though. The next bust that number can be cut in half again. But if you are arguing that there are enough resources the government could confiscate at gunpoint to pay off the debt, you are right. They could steal everything and sell it off and easily pay the debt. If the country's stocks are worthless at that point, they can always have troops put us to work mining resources and whatever else they need to do to pay it. Does that make you feel better? They will have to have you clean up my corpse before you can get back to work in your government mine.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Libman View Post
    I guess if you are going to be stupid, you deserve to be poor. All good.
    So why is it the people tasked with keeping other people stupid are the most arrogant people you'll ever meet?

    Just off the top of my head--and feel free to substitute some arrogant quip for real answers...

    1. When do we borrow enough that all the remaining mineral wealth is not enough to pay off the debt? And more importantly, why? What is the federal government doing to us that is worth spending the entire mineral wealth of the nation in this generation alone--and borrowing to do it now because those minerals can't all be dug up right now?

    2. What is productive about all the interest we are paying, and how does it stimulate any economy but the bond market?

    3. What are the SBA, the FSA and the satellite Fed banks going to do with the money, and how much more stimulating would it be to simply rid ourselves of the regulations that are stifling and destroying small businesses?

    4. While the threat of hyperinflation may well be exaggerated, what about the reality of regular old inflation, which is cutting everyone's pay but CEOs and other stockholders and is making savings evaporate?

    5. Would not looking at the increasing wealth and power of the surviving megacorporations in this startup-unfriendly economic environment and saying nothing but 'if corporations are people don't we just need more 'people' just more 'monetary child's play'?

    6. Are you going to say what it is that you think Reagan was right about, or are you just going to namedrop?

    7. Is this more deserving of a hashtag or is this merely the birth of a hacktag?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...



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  20. #17
    Is this what passes for hip-liberal these days? Trolling threads and spouting off nonsense about "well we can just force the rich to pay more, forget about unfunded liabilities, and confiscate anything else we can find just to keep our head afloat" ??? Lest we forget that we are talking actual numbers here, not theory. What is owed in terms of actual dollars if you include the debt and unfunded liabilities is IMPOSSIBLE TO PAY OFF...... EVARRRRR. I don't care how much friggin 'minerals' are in the ground. If you also include all the toxic assets (MBS, CDS, etc.) then were are upwards of 500 trillion dollars the taxpayer is on the hook for..... but in your world it's all good because "Obama!"
    There are only two things we should fight for. One is the defense of our homes and the other is the Bill of Rights. War for any other reason is simply a racket.
    -Major General Smedley Butler, USMC,
    Two-Time Congressional Medal of Honor Winner
    Author of, War is a Racket!

    It is not that I am mad, it is only that my head is different from yours.
    - Diogenes of Sinope

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by jllundqu View Post
    Is this what passes for hip-liberal these days? Trolling threads and spouting off nonsense about "well we can just force the rich to pay more, forget about unfunded liabilities, and confiscate anything else we can find just to keep our head afloat" ??? Lest we forget that we are talking actual numbers here, not theory. What is owed in terms of actual dollars if you include the debt and unfunded liabilities is IMPOSSIBLE TO PAY OFF...... EVARRRRR. I don't care how much friggin 'minerals' are in the ground. If you also include all the toxic assets (MBS, CDS, etc.) then were are upwards of 500 trillion dollars the taxpayer is on the hook for..... but in your world it's all good because "Obama!"
    Don't forget that the sole substance of this grand scheme is that we need to borrow more specifically so we can give it to the SBA, the FSA and the regional Feds. I, for one, cannot think of three less useful, less helpful entities. If you want small farms and businesses, history says that you obviously get them by making government smaller, not bigger.

    And this 'false scarcity' is all about seizing American arms? Is that why this false scarcity is created specifically for the purpose of borrowing to create arms?
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by The Gold Standard View Post
    The debt isn't an illusion, it is a real number that will never go down unless paid. Your wealth numbers are illusions though. The next bust that number can be cut in half again. But if you are arguing that there are enough resources the government could confiscate at gunpoint to pay off the debt, you are right. They could steal everything and sell it off and easily pay the debt. If the country's stocks are worthless at that point, they can always have troops put us to work mining resources and whatever else they need to do to pay it. Does that make you feel better? They will have to have you clean up my corpse before you can get back to work in your government mine.
    Repudiation and default also works wonders, with the added benefit of significantly decreasing the candidate pool of willing future lenders.


    "I wish it were possible to obtain a single amendment to our constitution - taking from the federal government their power of borrowing." - Thomas Jefferson
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 03-04-2015 at 11:43 AM.

  23. #20
    Yeah, the federal government could easily pay off all off its debt just by stealing $11 Trillion from my neighbors. They can afford it.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Yeah, the federal government could easily pay off all off its debt just by stealing $11 Trillion from my neighbors. They can afford it.
    Yeah, I've got 200 TRILLION$ framed and hanging on my family room wall.

  25. #22
    I smell Lyndon Larouche.

    Hey OP, you sure are playing fast and loose with the idea of "National Wealth". It seems to be your opinion that anything of value within the borders belongs to the government. The government actually shouldn't own ANY land or resources.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Libman View Post
    But is a total revolution possible? Perhaps it is time to submit to reality, and finally admit that Reagan was right.
    Yuppers, Reagen was correct when he had summarized that:

    The report said that one-third of all income taxes are consumed by waste and inefficiency in the federal government, and another one-third escapes collection owing to the underground economy. “With two thirds of everyone’s personal income taxes wasted or not collected, 100 percent of what is collected is absorbed solely by interest on the federal debt and by federal government contributions to transfer payments. In other words, all individual income tax revenues are gone before one nickel is spent on the services [that] taxpayers expect from their government."
    ‘Private Sector Survey on Cost Control’ (PSSCC)—The Grace Commission Report

    President Roosevelt already attempted the seizure of natural resources by his Executive Order 6102 in 1933, look how well that ended for holders of gold and silver--it was flat-out rabidly unconstitutional tyranny.

    The federal government is not entitled, without just compensation and within its strictly defined constitutional powers, to the natural resources of the several sovereign states or to the residents thereof.

    And inflation is very real, it is why the average day-laborer no longer has a ready means to establish any worthwhile savings, why their bank accounts bring in less than 1% interest, why their employer cannot afford to give them raises or overtime, why their daily expenses raise month after month after month, why all forms of their government actively seek new creative methods to tax them, why fulltime is now 30-hours, etc.
    Last edited by Weston White; 03-05-2015 at 10:04 AM.
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    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  27. #24
    A couple points:

    1) Since fiat dollars are created out of debt, if debt goes to zero, so does the "value" of the fiat dollar.

    2) The debt itself is an illusion. The collateral put up against the debt ~80 years ago is not an illusion. That collateral is what you wrote about. Land, resources, etc.

    3) Put 1 and 2 together to see the big picture. Debt is wiped out, collateral is seized, fiat dollar becomes worthless. Start over.

    Or something like that....
    "Let it not be said that we did nothing."-Ron Paul

    "We have set them on the hobby-horse of an idea about the absorption of individuality by the symbolic unit of COLLECTIVISM. They have never yet and they never will have the sense to reflect that this hobby-horse is a manifest violation of the most important law of nature, which has established from the very creation of the world one unit unlike another and precisely for the purpose of instituting individuality."- A Quote From Some Old Book



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by devil21 View Post
    A couple points:

    1) Since fiat dollars are created out of debt, if debt goes to zero, so does the "value" of the fiat dollar.

    2) The debt itself is an illusion. The collateral put up against the debt ~80 years ago is not an illusion. That collateral is what you wrote about. Land, resources, etc.

    3) Put 1 and 2 together to see the big picture. Debt is wiped out, collateral is seized, fiat dollar becomes worthless. Start over.

    Or something like that....
    Not necessarily. Only relative to some things/services. Value is subjective. It's certainly possible that some people will always value dollars for some reason. Value is subjective! (Austrian econ 101)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  30. #26
    When the nation loses sovereignty, fiat goes to zero. Nations tend to print and default on debt while their governments fail. Correlation is not causation. Until, of course, it is.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Not necessarily. Only relative to some things/services. Value is subjective. It's certainly possible that some people will always value dollars for some reason. Value is subjective! (Austrian econ 101)
    I will agree that your value is certainly subjective.
    and impervious to logic and reason. I might add.

    luv you! ~hugs~! lulz.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew Libman View Post
    When the nation loses sovereignty, fiat goes to zero. Nations tend to print and default on debt while their governments fail. Correlation is not causation. Until, of course, it is.
    Indeed, there is such a possibility. But a similar risk exists with everything(some more risky than others, of course).
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Last I checked, China has about eleven percent of it and the Fed about 13 percent. A lot is held in retirement accounts and mutual funds.
    So, you're saying that the government owes the people about 76% of it?

    Does that include what is owed to SSI?

    And, who is paid the interest on that? (I know that interest is low, currently)

    And...more importantly...can't we take out in government hide if they try to back out (renig?)?
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  34. #30
    I would really like to see more intellectual engagement when people post things.

    Just because someone has what you think is an illogical conclusion does not mean that they don't have any understanding or knowledge.

    I'm not all knowing and understanding, I'm still learning. I do consider some of my beliefs to be solid based on what I can prove, and that is usually not, what I consider, positive understanding but, rather, negative understanding. As in, what is not true or what is most likely not true. And that is based on contradictory evidence, some of which is known or acknowledged.

    If we are to find truth, we have to engage others in honesty. If we are to develop sound theories about life, we have to gather, and share, all of the information and considerations that our brothers and sisters have.

    The liberal individuals are not the enemy, the neocon individuals are not the enemy. Falsehood and deceit are the enemy. Most of our fellow humans are as in the dark as any of us (yes, the us that means all of the people that are not gods).
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

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