The truth about hell fire

[jmdrake]

Yes, heavens is more than one. God created the first heaven (the place where the birds fly), and the second heaven (space where the planets are).

And that's one interpretation but not an exhaustive one. No where in the Bible does it say there is only one cosmos. That's merely your interpretation. Now, do you believe the sun rotates around the earth? Why not when Joshua commanded the sun to stand still?

[Sola_Fide]

A) Heavens plural

B) Genesis was never meant to be an exhaustive explanation of creation.

But hey, let me know when you decide the earth is really flat and the sun rotates around the earth okay?

A. Yes, heavens is plural. God created the first heaven (the place where the birds fly), and the second heaven (space where the planets are).

B. Genesis doesn't have to be an exhaustive explanation of creation to explain that God only created ONE universe.

[Sola_Fide]

And that's one interpretation but not an exhaustive one. No where in the Bible does it say there is only one cosmos. That's merely your interpretation. Now, do you believe the sun rotates around the earth? Why not when Joshua commanded the sun to stand still?

Yes it does:

Genesis 1:1-5

In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth. Now the earth was formless and empty, darkness was over the surface of the deep, and the Spirit of God was hovering over the waters.


And God said, “Let there be light,” and there was light. God saw that the light was good, and he separated the light from the darkness. God called the light “day,” and the darkness he called “night.” And there was evening, and there was morning—the first day.

[moostraks]

What does election have to do with genetics? Election has absolutely NOTHING to do with men being "made different" than anyone else. What an absurd lie!

Oh, I believe it is crap. It is the crap you try to sell people on right as you start whacking them over the head with Romans 9.

[PaulConventionWV]

Well the Bible mentions God created heavens plural. Yes one can look at that as "Sky - cosmos - throne of God" but that can also mean more than one cosmos. Beyond that, do you restrict yourself to only believing science that is strictly mentioned in the Bible? I think that's not very Biblical or scientific. The Bible talks about the "four corners of the earth" even though the earth is round. It says Joshua made the sun stand still even though it was the earth rotating and orbiting the sun and not the sun rotating around the earth. If science directly contradicts the Bible that's one thing. But a multiverse doesn't contradict the Bible, only your interpretation of it. Again "heavens" as in more than one.

That's because "Heavens" is a non-countable noun like "waters".

Are you saying that there are scientific gaps in the Bible and your idea of a multiverse fills that gap?

The problem is not that I believe in only scientific things mentioned in the Bible, it's that I don't even see how your ideas are scientific.

[jmdrake]

Who defines "Earth-like" and why do you think it means there is other life when we have no indication that this is the case?

Who says there is no indication that this is the cares? Are you talking from a scientific standpoint or a Biblical one? From a Biblical standpoint it is clear that there is life outside of earth. Read Job with the sons of God coming to present themselves before Him. Satan came to represent earth because he had dominion having taken that from Adam. Adam was called the son of God in Luke. And even if you go with the angel interpretation of sons of God that's still life outside of earth. From a scientific point of view we have not yet made it close enough to another earth like planet (same size as earth and similar distance from its sun) to be able to say one way or another. That said, we could find life in the ocean under one of Jupiter's moons.

[Sola_Fide]

Oh, I believe it is crap. It is the crap you try to sell people on right as you start whacking them over the head with Romans 9.

You have not shown that I believe that some men are made "genetically different" than anyone else. I've NEVER said that and I believe that to be utterly repugnant. I repudiate that with everything I am. Either tell the truth about my position or quit talking about it.

[jmdrake]

That's because "Heavens" is a non-countable noun like "waters".

I'm not sure what you mean by that. Heaven is singular. Heavens is plural. I don't know of any "countable" nouns. Man singular. Men plural. Seriously, what's your point?

Are you saying that there are scientific gaps in the Bible and your idea of a multiverse fills that gap?

If there is strong scientific evidence for something that doesn't directly conflict with the Bible, I go with the science. Actually our current model of the solar system sort of contradicts with a strict interpretation of the Bible, but we go with it anyway and just assume that when the writer Joshua said Joshua "made the sun stand still" he was really just describing his perception of the event and not making a scientific pronouncement. God simply didn't reveal all science in the Bible. I'm not sure why you believe the universe/multiverse would be any different.

The problem is not that I believe in only scientific things mentioned in the Bible, it's that I don't even see how your ideas are scientific.

You don't believe the muliverse is scientific? Then your understanding of physics is lacking. I'm not trying to be snarky here. The multiverse is strongly predicted by quantum mechanics.

[PaulConventionWV]

Who says there is no indication that this is the cares? Are you talking from a scientific standpoint or a Biblical one? From a Biblical standpoint it is clear that there is life outside of earth. Read Job with the sons of God coming to present themselves before Him. Satan came to represent earth because he had dominion having taken that from Adam. Adam was called the son of God in Luke. And even if you go with the angel interpretation of sons of God that's still life outside of earth. From a scientific point of view we have not yet made it close enough to another earth like planet (same size as earth and similar distance from its sun) to be able to say one way or another. That said, we could find life in the ocean under one of Jupiter's moons.

I'll believe it when I see it.

[Crashland]

Yes it does:

Nowhere in Genesis 1:1-5 is there a claim that there are only two "heavens" which refer to the place where the birds fly and the cosmos. Also nowhere in Genesis 1:1-5 is there a claim that the earth being described is the only earth that God created. "God created X" does not mean "God created only X." You are inserting that interpretation into your scripture.

[jmdrake]

Election has absolutely NOTHING to do with men being "made different" than anyone else. What an absurd lie!

You believe that some men were created to go to heaven and some were created to go to hell. By the very definition of your belief you believe that mean are "made different." Now whether you believe this difference is encoded genetically or not is another matter.

[TER]

Let's say that there is a hell. I don't believe God enjoys the fact that the sinners will be tormented for eternity, but they were given the choice whether to embark down that path. We are essentially creating our own personal hells when we violate certain basic human standards.

What an excellent observation! I think your on to something!

[moostraks]

You have not shown that I believe that some men are made "genetically different" than anyone else. I've NEVER said that and I believe that to be utterly repugnant. I repudiate that with everything I am. Either tell the truth about my position or quit talking about it.

Then you do not believe that some are formed by the Creator with no capacity for salvation, to be eternally tormented, while others are formed to be saved?

[Sola_Fide]

You believe that some men were created to go to heaven and some were created to go to hell. By the very definition of your belief you believe that mean are "made different." Now whether you believe this difference is encoded genetically or not is another matter.

Yeah, its another matter alright. I don't believe it all. Personally, I am offended at that. That is RACISM, and I hate racists.

[Sola_Fide]

Then you do not believe that some are formed by the Creator with no capacity for salvation, to be eternally tormented, while others are formed to be saved?

Yes. What on earth does that have to do with genetics?

[Christian Liberty]

The Bible says He created all the worlds in this universe. But where is there any more than one universe in this?

The Bible doesn't say if God created any other universes, so we really don't know.

[Sola_Fide]

The Bible doesn't say if God created any other universes, so we really don't know.

The Bible doesn't say explicitly that Mary was assumed into heaven, therefore we believe it.

Right?

[Christian Liberty]

You worship a liar that says that God was lying when He said "You shalt surely die."

You worship an idol that doesn't realize that the best way to actually get rid of sin is to destroy it rather than keep it around forever.

In fact your false God loves sin. He created sin and he wants it around forever and ever.

Are all who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment idolaters? If you don't believe so you are being inconsistent.

[jmdrake]

Are all who believe in Eternal Conscious Torment idolaters? If you don't believe so you are being inconsistent.

I'm giving back to SF in a way that hopefully he can understand.

[Christian Liberty]

I'm giving back to SF in a way that hopefully he can understand.

So you're asserting something you don't believe?

[Sola_Fide]

I'm giving back to SF in a way that hopefully he can understand.

Sir, I laid out in more than a dozen posts the theological reasons that you worship an idol. I'm not just throwing that out in the air as an insult. I would love nothing more than for the Lord of Glory to open your eyes so that I could call you a brother.

But to say that there is something other than the sacrifice of Christ which can end God's punishment of sin is to say a blasphemous thing. It rejects the authority and power of Christ. It spits on His blood.

[jmdrake]

So you're asserting something you don't believe?

I believe those who go around calling other people idolaters are often themselves idolaters.

[jmdrake]

Sir, I laid out in more than a dozen posts the theological reasons that you worship an idol.

And they're all bull$#@!. Even FF knows that your position regarding me being an idolater is unbibical.

[Christian Liberty]

The Bible doesn't say explicitly that Mary was assumed into heaven, therefore we believe it.

Right?

I didn't say I believe it. I'm saying its possible.

I have a harder time saying that the assumption of Mary is possible because of the other heresies its linked to. I just think its really unlikely. But, Enoch and Elijah both didn't die, so its not impossible that God did the same thing with Mary. I see no good reason to believe that since its not in the text.

[Christian Liberty]

And they're all bull$#@!. Even FF knows that your position regarding me being an idolater is unbibical.

I know a solid Reformed guy who agrees with me almost completely on doctrine except he believes that unbelievers will eventually be annihilated. In his case, I am absolutely certain that he didn't have a problem with the idea of Hell at a personal level. He was one of the guys who convinced me to be a Calvinist, and he was the first one to clearly say that God had the right to save and damn who he wills. But, he was persuaded by some of the same Biblical arguments that persuaded TC. I think he was wrong. I don't think he's an unsaved man.

I've wrestled a bit over whether Arminianism is heresy or not. I tend to think its somewhere near the borderline. I don't think its an orthodox position, but I'm also not convinced that every single person who believes it (especially in ignorance) is unsaved.

Make of that what you will. I know SF is going to go off on me for not being harsh enough and the rest of you are going to go off on me for being too harsh, but it is what it is.

[Sola_Fide]

I didn't say I believe it. I'm saying its possible.

I have a harder time saying that the assumption of Mary is possible because of the other heresies its linked to. I just think its really unlikely. But, Enoch and Elijah both didn't die, so its not impossible that God did the same thing with Mary. I see no good reason to believe that since its not in the text.

Right. It's not in the text, so why believe it? I'll tell you why:

Roman Catholics believe it because they want nothing more than to elevate Mary to the place of mediator between God and man.

Jmdrake believes what he believes because it allows him to elevate man's will so that it is autonomous.

Look at the motivations behind doctrines. Do they magnify the Creator? Or magnify the creation?

[jmdrake]

Nowhere in Genesis 1:1-5 is there a claim that there are only two "heavens" which refer to the place where the birds fly and the cosmos. Also nowhere in Genesis 1:1-5 is there a claim that the earth being described is the only earth that God created. "God created X" does not mean "God created only X." You are inserting that interpretation into your scripture.

^This

[wizardwatson]

You guys talk about other worlds as though you are arguing about how to fold towels.

It would be a crime if God did NOT create other worlds. World's only he has known. Worlds he hasn't been and has only created for others. Worlds within worlds.

But please continue, we are all dying to see how this ends.

[jmdrake]

Jmdrake believes what he believes because it allows him to elevate man's will so that it is autonomous.

No liar. I read the science and understood enough about quantum mechanics for the multiverse to make sense. It doesn't go against the Bible despite your infantile protestations to the contrary. I believed in the concept of the multi-verse long before I ran into people that were so warped that they denied the Bible truth that God is not the author of sin like you do.

[Crashland]

It would be a crime if God did NOT create other worlds. World's only he has known. Worlds he hasn't been and has only created for others. Worlds within worlds.

Indeed. God would not in any way be obligated to tell us about them, either, especially if they have nothing to do with us.