The truth about hell fire

[Brett85]

Punishment is eternal:

Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Even if you take that 100% literally (which you shouldn't, because almost the entire book of Revelation is symbolic imagery not meant to be taken literally) that still doesn't prove anything. All it says is that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for all eternity, not all of the unsaved. There are some annihilationists who believe that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for all eternity, but everyone else will be annihilated.

[wizardwatson]

What does everyone think about Limbo?

More fun on rollerskates.

[Brett85]

Yeah, this is the nature of the punishment:

Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Daniel 7: 11

"Then I kept looking because of the sound of the boastful words which the horn was speaking; I kept looking until the beast was slain, and its body was destroyed and given to the burning fire."

[Sola_Fide]

Even if you take that 100% literally (which you shouldn't, because almost the entire book of Revelation is symbolic imagery not meant to be taken literally) that still doesn't prove anything. All it says is that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for all eternity, not all of the unsaved. There are some annihilationists who believe that the devil, the beast, and the false prophet will be tormented for all eternity, but everyone else will be annihilated.

Wrong. The people who worship the beast and receive the mark are tormented and they have no rest day or night.

Revelation 14:10-11

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.


The purpose of the fire and brimstone in Revelation 14:10 is NOT to end one's existence, but to torment. Annihilationism is not Biblical.

[Brett85]

Wrong. The people who worship the beast and receive the mark are tormented and they have no rest day or night.

Again, the book of Revelation is almost entirely symbolic. Don't you yourself believe that the 1,000 years isn't meant to be taken literally? If so, then you have no room to argue that these verses have to be taken 100% literally. The phrase "the smoke of their torment rises forever" comes from the book of Isaiah which describes the destruction of Edom. That's where that imagery comes from. Do you believe that Edom is still burning?

Isaiah 34: 8-10

For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. 10It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.

[Sola_Fide]

Again, the book of Revelation is almost entirely symbolic. Don't you yourself believe that the 1,000 years isn't meant to be taken literally? If so, then you have no room to argue that these verses have to be taken 100% literally. The phrase "the smoke of their torment rises forever" comes from the book of Isaiah which describes the destruction of Edom. That's where that imagery comes from. Do you believe that Edom is still burning?

Isaiah 34: 8-10

For the LORD has a day of vengeance, A year of recompense for the cause of Zion. 9Its streams will be turned into pitch, And its loose earth into brimstone, And its land will become burning pitch. 10It will not be quenched night or day; Its smoke will go up forever. From generation to generation it will be desolate; None will pass through it forever and ever.

That verse from Isaiah is symbolic too.

Yes, and what we have in the Old Testament is often a temporal sign of a future eternal reality. This is why in the next chapter in Isaiah 35, the land of Zion is described. Is Zion just an earthly place? No. It is a temporal sign of an eternal reality.

In eternity, smoke will go up forever because time will not end.

[Brett85]

That verse from Isaiah is symbolic too.

Yes, and what we have in the Old Testament is often a temporal sign of a future eternal reality. This is why in the next chapter in Isaiah 35, the land of Zion is described. Is Zion just an earthly place? No. It is a temporal sign of an eternal reality.

In eternity, smoke will go up forever because time will not end.

And it will go up "day and night" forever and ever, even though there will be no more night on the new earth?

Revelation 22:5

"And there will no longer be any night; and they will not have need of the light of a lamp nor the light of the sun, because the Lord God will illumine them; and they will reign forever and ever."

[wizardwatson]

Sola_Fide,

If someone doesn't believe in eternal hell are they eternally damned?

Another question,

If someone doesn't ___________________ are they eternally damned?

If your answer to either of these questions is NOT equal to "i don't know" then you have a serious problem. Even Christ doesn't judge on such things. It is the Father who takes in his hand the sword that is Christ and separates the sheep from the goats.

You seem to be perfectly comfortable taking that sword in your hand and leaving the Father tied up in the basement.

You are locked in a self-reinforcing delusion. "This is the truth revealed to me. Since it is truth and it is revealed to me then I am saved and anyone who rejects this truth 'probably' isn't. If they disagree with me then it only shows me who they are. I will carry on though in case some bystander is looking on. It is a struggle but if you speak about Christ the world will hate you, so it's a win-win."

I doubt you will, but if you accept the OBVIOUS fact that there is NO WAY for you to form ANY objective condition that can help you or anyone else divine the eternal state of another beings soul THEN WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS WORTHY OF DISCUSSION?

What can I learn from this teaching that helps me understand and love God or my neighbor?

I am learning but it isn't from you it's about you.

Your attempts to teach only make transparent the fact that you must defend eternal hell because that's the "truth" by which you are measuring the faith of others. If you give even an inch like, "well, maybe I'm wrong", then your entire 1000's-of-posts-diatribe becomes meaningless.

Just move on to something else simpler. God's final judgement is something I still struggle with trying to understand almost daily. It's hard. There are a lot of aspects that can't be so easily generalized. Not saying I'm smarter than you, but when I see someone throwing around "hell" and "damnation" and are completely wrong about for instance, God and Jesus being two separate temporal persons, I can't help but assume that in this particular subject I am.

You cannot anchor yourself to an intellectual interpretation. You make it into an idol.

"In order for a proposition to be capable of being true it must also be capable of being false." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

There is a seed of doubt/alternative possibility in all things intelletual concerning "factness". You can't even be certain that you aren't in the Matrix or that your hand doesn't actually have 6 fingers. Being 100% certain about the fact of eternal hell is dubious and only shows the reasons I described above of why you can't resist defending it.

[Sola_Fide]

Sola_Fide,

If someone doesn't believe in eternal hell are they eternally damned?

Another question,

If someone doesn't ___________________ are they eternally damned?

If your answer to either of these questions is NOT equal to "i don't know" then you have a serious problem. Even Christ doesn't judge on such things. It is the Father who takes in his hand the sword that is Christ and separates the sheep from the goats.

You seem to be perfectly comfortable taking that sword in your hand and leaving the Father tied up in the basement.

You are locked in a self-reinforcing delusion. "This is the truth revealed to me. Since it is truth and it is revealed to me then I am saved and anyone who rejects this truth 'probably' isn't. If they disagree with me then it only shows me who they are. I will carry on though in case some bystander is looking on. It is a struggle but if you speak about Christ the world will hate you, so it's a win-win."

I doubt you will, but if you accept the OBVIOUS fact that there is NO WAY for you to form ANY objective condition that can help you or anyone else divine the eternal state of another beings soul THEN WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS WORTHY OF DISCUSSION?

What can I learn from this teaching that helps me understand and love God or my neighbor?

I am learning but it isn't from you it's about you.

Your attempts to teach only make transparent the fact that you must defend eternal hell because that's the "truth" by which you are measuring the faith of others. If you give even an inch like, "well, maybe I'm wrong", then your entire 1000's-of-posts-diatribe becomes meaningless.

Just move on to something else simpler. God's final judgement is something I still struggle with trying to understand almost daily. It's hard. There are a lot of aspects that can't be so easily generalized. Not saying I'm smarter than you, but when I see someone throwing around "hell" and "damnation" and are completely wrong about for instance, God and Jesus being two separate temporal persons, I can't help but assume that in this particular subject I am.

You cannot anchor yourself to an intellectual interpretation. You make it into an idol.

"In order for a proposition to be capable of being true it must also be capable of being false." - Ludwig Wittgenstein

There is a seed of doubt/alternative possibility in all things intelletual concerning "factness". You can't even be certain that you aren't in the Matrix or that your hand doesn't actually have 6 fingers. Being 100% certain about the fact of eternal hell is dubious and only shows the reasons I described above of why you can't resist defending it.

I think I've explained the theological reasons that annihilationism is a heresy. Annihilationism asserts that there is something other than Christ that satisfies (ends) the wrath of God against a man. But the gospel is that Christ alone saves His people. Paul says that if even an angel from heaven preaches a different gospel to you than the true gospel, he is anathema.

[Brett85]

Paul says that if even an angel from heaven preaches a different gospel to you than the true gospel, he is anathema.

I'm not a pastor.

[wizardwatson]

I think I've explained the theological reasons that annihilationism is a heresy. Annihilationism asserts that there is something other than Christ that satisfies (ends) the wrath of God against a man. But the gospel is that Christ alone saves His people. Paul says that if even an angel from heaven preaches a different gospel to you than the true gospel, he is anathema.

Thank you for paraphrasing exactly what I said, and no thank you for refusing to actually comment on my assessment.

Paul, Paul, Paul....What did all those poor Christian souls do before Paul showed them the Way!!!

The NT says women shouldn't cut their hair. Am I anathema if I say ladies can cut their hair however they want?

[PaulConventionWV]

There's verse after verse that say the punishment is eternal:

Matthew 25:46

And these will go away into eternal punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

And still you ignore my posts about "aionas/aionios". The word does NOT mean eternal.

[PaulConventionWV]

Punishment is eternal:

Revelation 20:10

and the devil who had deceived them was thrown into the lake of fire and sulfur where the beast and the false prophet were, and they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

Did you not see my post about the phrase "forever and ever"? Revelation 20:10 completely disproves the idea of eternal torment.

Stop and think about it for just a second. The phrase used in Rev. 20:10 is "aionios ton aionios". Does this mean there are two forevers? That is logically impossible. What does the phrase "forever and ever" even mean? That only makes sense if you're talking to a 5-year-old. "Forever and ever" is a redundant and self-contradictory phrase. It makes much more sense when you translate it as ages instead of eternities because you can have more than one age, but you cannot have more than one eternity.

Watch the video I posted in post #733 for more evidence of what I'm saying.

[PaulConventionWV]

And I've said time after time that I agree with you that the punishment is eternal. We just disagree on the nature of the punishment.

Is everyone just going to ignore my posts about the word "aionios"? Are you all just going to turn a blind eye to what is plainly before you as evidence against your ideas? I encourage you to reconsider these ideas. Watch the videos and ponder whether you're motivated by love or by fear. Love cannot be fearful. If you are making your decision out of fear, then you are doing it wrong.

1 John 4:18

There is no fear in love. But perfect love drives out fear, because fear has to do with punishment. The one who fears is not made perfect in love.

[PaulConventionWV]

Wrong. The people who worship the beast and receive the mark are tormented and they have no rest day or night.

Revelation 14:10-11

The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of His indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb: And the smoke of their torment ascends up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receives the mark of his name.


The purpose of the fire and brimstone in Revelation 14:10 is NOT to end one's existence, but to torment. Annihilationism is not Biblical.

The purpose of fire and brimstone was to destroy Jerusalem, not torment it forever.

[PaulConventionWV]

I think I've explained the theological reasons that annihilationism is a heresy. Annihilationism asserts that there is something other than Christ that satisfies (ends) the wrath of God against a man. But the gospel is that Christ alone saves His people. Paul says that if even an angel from heaven preaches a different gospel to you than the true gospel, he is anathema.

Did Paul ever talk about Hell? You would think that was kind of important, and he said he didn't leave anything out, so... did he?

[Brett85]

Is everyone just going to ignore my posts about the word "aionios"? Are you all just going to turn a blind eye to what is plainly before you as evidence against your ideas? I encourage you to reconsider these ideas. Watch the videos and ponder whether you're motivated by love or by fear. Love cannot be fearful. If you are making your decision out of fear, then you are doing it wrong.

I'm not. I'm just not sure how to respond to it as I haven't researched the issue as much as I should've. I've asked Sola several times how he responds to your argument, and he seems to just be ignoring both of us.

[PaulConventionWV]

I'm not. I'm just not sure how to respond to it as I haven't researched the issue as much as I should've. I've asked Sola several times how he responds to your argument, and he seems to just be ignoring both of us.

I don't think he can. The video I posted is a good place to start if you want to find out more about it, though. I'm beginning to think the early church was actually universalist or at least did not consider it heresy until later when it was corrupted. I haven't studied a lot of the history, but that is a compelling point that I haven't actually heard before. Watch the video for more about that.

[jmdrake]

Yes, God is the righteous author of sin. He uses sin for His own good purpose: to glorify His justice.

You believe that. The Bible doesn't teach that. And if it was true (it isn't) then God loves sin the same way that English fox hunters love foxes. "Oh the glory of another fox hunt! Let's make sure there are more foxes for next years hunt! Let's not destroy all of the foxes or we won't have the glory of hunting them!" It's sadistic.

God's anger last only for a moment toward His elect, who He chastises but ultimately saves. Toward the vessels of wrath, His wrath is never placated because there is no atonement for their sin.

Yeah...the Bible doesn't say that. For someone who claims to be into what the Bible says you often take liberalities with it and go so far as to rest your "biblical" arguments on extra biblical sources like the Westminster Confession.

Jesus destroyed the works of the devil. And not only did He conquer death, but also at the end of time, the devil and His followers will be punished for their evil. God is JUST to punish evil.

That's not what you actually believe. You believe the works of the devil go on and on forever. And that's because you believe the works of the devil are actually the works of God. So Jesus can't destroy the works of the devil in your belief system because that would be going against God.

[wizardwatson]

I'm not. I'm just not sure how to respond to it as I haven't researched the issue as much as I should've. I've asked Sola several times how he responds to your argument, and he seems to just be ignoring both of us.

I wouldn't sweat it. I haven't got any response outside his "you can't be saved if you don't believe this cuz Paul said" stuff.

Mt current hypothesis is that he's a "tomato can" for those here pretending to be here.

[Ender]

God loves His children, but not every person is a child of God.

Wrong. EVERY person is a child of God.






El Olam is Hebrew for Everlasting God.

Correct: Greek version of Olam is aion





I don't know what you mean here.

Always the answer when you have no answer.

God loves all of us- we are all his children. Eternal punishment is GOD'S punishment- it is not forever.

Again, my God is the God of Love.

[PaulConventionWV]

You believe that. The Bible doesn't teach that. And if it was true (it isn't) then God loves sin the same way that English fox hunters love foxes. "Oh the glory of another fox hunt! Let's make sure there are more foxes for next years hunt! Let's not destroy all of the foxes or we won't have the glory of hunting them!" It's sadistic.




Yeah...the Bible doesn't say that. For someone who claims to be into what the Bible says you often take liberalities with it and go so far as to rest your "biblical" arguments on extra biblical sources like the Westminster Confession.



That's not what you actually believe. You believe the works of the devil go on and on forever. And that's because you believe the works of the devil are actually the works of God. So Jesus can't destroy the works of the devil in your belief system because that would be going against God.

Does the devil have power that God doesn't have?

[Sola_Fide]

God loves all of us- we are all his children. Eternal punishment is GOD'S punishment- it is not forever.

Again, my God is the God of Love.

Read these two verses:

1 John 3:10

This is how we know who the children of God are and who the children of the devil are: Anyone who does not do what is right is not God's child, nor is anyone who does not love their brother and sister.

John 8:44

You belong to your father, the devil, and you want to carry out your father's desires. He was a murderer from the beginning, not holding to the truth, for there is no truth in him. When he lies, he speaks his native language, for he is a liar and the father of lies.

Now. Is every person God's child? Yes or no?

[Brett85]

Sola, I'm still interested to hear how you respond to Paul's argument that "aionios" doesn't mean "eternal." I've heard this argument brought up before by universalists and don't know how to respond to it. Can you address that issue and give your view on it?

[Sola_Fide]

Sola, I'm still interested to hear how you respond to Paul's argument that "aionios" doesn't mean "eternal." I've heard this argument brought up before by universalists and don't know how to respond to it. Can you address that issue and give your view on it?

This entire video is great, but if you want the answer, go to 9:50 to 11:20:


"These will go Iinto eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life". If ainiois doesn't mean eternal punishment, then aonios doesn't mean eternal life. My Greek is horrible, I admit it, but I am learning. The Greek of these new universalists is just downright shameful. This also proves that punishment is eternal, as life is, also. So it disproves Annihilationism too.

[Brett85]

This entire video is great, but if you want the answer, go to 9:50 to 11:20:


"These will go Iinto eternal punishment, but the righteous will go into eternal life". If ainiois doesn't mean eternal punishment, then aonios doesn't mean eternal life. My Greek is horrible, I admit it, but I am learning. The Greek of these new universalists is just downright shameful. This also proves that punishment is eternal, as life is, also. So it disproves Annihilationism too.

Thanks for the video, but no, it doesn't disprove annihilationism. I agree with you that the punishment is eternal.

[Sola_Fide]

Thanks for the video, but no, it doesn't disprove annihilationism. I agree with you that the punishment is eternal.

How is the punishment eternal? You are saying the punishment ends in a point in time. How is that eternal?

[Brett85]

How is the punishment eternal? You are saying the punishment ends in a point in time. How is that eternal?

Nope. The punishment is death, and the punishment of death lasts for all eternity. The unsaved will never be resurrected a second time and allowed to enter heaven.

[Sola_Fide]

Nope. The punishment is death, and the punishment of death lasts for all eternity. The unsaved will never be resurrected a second time and allowed to enter heaven.

The Greek says the PUNISHMENT never ends, just as the LIFE never ends.

[moostraks]

The Greek says the PUNISHMENT never ends, just as the LIFE never ends.

Your English is not that good either if the point Brett has made is still flying right over your head...