The truth about hell fire

[pcosmar]

The elect are the chosen ones who God has chosen for redemption:

OK,, who are they.

Because you are very quick to condemn everyone that doesn't follow your particular doctrine as unsaved and condemned.

I have an Idea who the elect are..

Man. (as opposed to angels or animals)

of all creation,, Man is Elect.

[pcosmar]

No, that is not a correct reading of that verse. Jesus is not saying that Hell wasn't made for man. He was saying "this place is so bad, its where the devil is going to be punished! You don't want to go there!"

No,, he said it was a place made for the devil.. that is what it was made for. To punish those that rebelled.

[PaulConventionWV]

I laugh at all of this nonsense... Judge not lest ye be SF or some other hateful (non)christian....

Of course a non-believer would go around quoting that severely abused passage out of context. The "Judge not part" came right after Jesus talked about not being a hypocrite. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is just a warning not to be a hypocrite in your judgment or you might get called out on it. It doesn't say we should never claim to know the difference between right and wrong. We're supposed to judge.

[Sola_Fide]

OK,, who are they.

Because you are very quick to condemn everyone that doesn't follow your particular doctrine as unsaved and condemned.

I have an Idea who the elect are..

Man. (as opposed to angels or animals)

of all creation,, Man is Elect.

No. That is an impossible reading of those verses. Because in the same verses, they talk about the ones who were not elect:

1st Peter 2:8-9

for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

But you are a chosen race, a royal priesthood, a holy nation, a people for God’s own possession, so that you may proclaim the excellencies of Him who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light,

The disobedient ones are predestined. The elect ones are predestined as well.

[Sola_Fide]

Of course a non-believer would go around quoting that severely abused passage out of context. The "Judge not part" came right after Jesus talked about not being a hypocrite. "Judge not lest ye be judged" is just a warning not to be a hypocrite in your judgment or you might get called out on it. It doesn't say we should never claim to know the difference between right and wrong. We're supposed to judge.

That is correct.

[PaulConventionWV]

Yes, it is past tense. Jesus satisfied the wrath of God against all the elect who will ever live. He did it for them on the cross.

He did it for the entire world. When He made the covenant with Israel, He explicitly included the Israelites as well as the aliens both present and those not present. (Deut. 29:10-13)

[Sola_Fide]

No,, he said it was a place made for the devil.. that is what it was made for. To punish those that rebelled.

People go to Hell too. How you can question this, who knows...That is just nuts.

Jesus said:

Mark 9:43-48

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.

[PaulConventionWV]

Christ died for the elect. That is why they no longer are (and will forever not be) under God's wrath. Christ did not die for the goats. That is why they are still (and will forever) be under God's wrath.






God is justice:


God is vengeance:

No, you just don't get it. YOU are saying God IS justice. The Bible doesn't say that. It only says that for love. God is a God of justice, but the Bible only ever says God IS love. Why the special emphasis on love?

[PaulConventionWV]

No, that is not a correct reading of that verse. Jesus is not saying that Hell wasn't made for man. He was saying "this place is so bad, its where the devil is going to be punished! You don't want to go there!"

Did Paul leave something out of his teachings, Sola?

[Sola_Fide]

He did it for the entire world. When He made the covenant with Israel, He explicitly included the Israelites as well as the aliens both present and those not present. (Deut. 29:10-13)

No He didn't. Even in the Old Covenant, the sacrifice was made for the ones who drew near, NOT for all people.

And the New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant, because the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin. The high priest, year after year, made sacrifice for the sins of the people with blood that could never take away sin.

But in the New Covenant, Christ's work is complete. He made His one sacrifice as the high priest and then SAT DOWN at the right hand of God (meaning His work of intercession was done).

[wizardwatson]

People go to Hell too. How you can question this, who knows...That is just nuts.

Jesus said:

Mark 9:43-48

If your hand causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out.

And if your foot causes you to stumble, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell.

And if your eye causes you to stumble, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, where

“ ‘the worms that eat them do not die,
and the fire is not quenched.

Sola, there's nothing in those verses that says they go there forever. You know it says in another place that people are brought out of hell to the judgement.

Yes the fire never goes out, that doesn't mean those who experience it are in it forever.

You are using scripture to support your point and then saying, "so it follows...".

[Sola_Fide]

No, you just don't get it. YOU are saying God IS justice. The Bible doesn't say that. It only says that for love. God is a God of justice, but the Bible only ever says God IS love. Why the special emphasis on love?

The special emphasis is on love because man doesn't deserve it. If God was completely just and had no mercy on anyone, all of us would be in Hell forever. That is the consequence of sin.

[PaulConventionWV]

No He didn't. Even in the Old Covenant, the sacrifice was made for the ones who drew near, NOT for all people.

And the New Covenant is better than the Old Covenant, because the blood of bulls and goats could never take away sin. The high priest, year after year, made sacrifice for the sins of the people with blood that could never take away sin.

But in the New Covenant, Christ's work is complete. He made His one sacrifice as the high priest and then SAT DOWN at the right hand of God (meaning His work of intercession was done).

Why don't you refer to Scripture? I gave you the passage I was talking about where God explicitly says He is also addressing "the aliens in your camps" and both those present and not present. In other words, He was very, very careful to point out that He was addressing every single person.

[PaulConventionWV]

The special emphasis is on love because man doesn't deserve it. If God was completely just and had no mercy on anyone, all of us would be in Hell forever. That is the consequence of sin.

That's a pretty backward way of thinking. Another example of you reading things into Scripture that just aren't there.

[Sola_Fide]

Why don't you refer to Scripture? I gave you the passage I was talking about where God explicitly says He is also addressing "the aliens in your camps" and both those present and not present. In other words, He was very, very careful to point out that He was addressing every single person.

The Arminian Heresy Of Unlimited Atonement
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...ited-Atonement

[Sola_Fide]

That's a pretty backward way of thinking. Another example of you reading things into Scripture that just aren't there.

No sir, I think it is illustrative of the fact that you don't have a Biblical theology that understands the holiness and justice of God.

[jmdrake]

You don't believe that Jesus fulfilled the law on behalf of a person and satisfied God's wrath against them? So now you deny propitiation too? Haha...it never ends.

I don't believe that God needs people to burn forever in order to feel better. You have not provided a single Bible verse to support that bovine scat. You have turned the Bible on its head and made God a liar. God said "You shall surely die." You teach Lucifer's lie that "You shall NOT surely die." Do you even understand the reason why God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden? Hint. It wasn't to satiate His wrath.

Edit: One more thing. John taught that Jesus' propitiation was not just for the sins of Christians, but for the entire world. I know. You don't believe John actually meant what he said. But that's the only rational reading of 1 John 2:2.

[PaulConventionWV]

No sir, I think it is illustrative of the fact that you don't have a Biblical theology that understands the holiness and justice of God.

That's very strange. Let me show you why. You read "God is love" and you see the emphasis placed on love over justice and vengeance and you say, "Wow, God's love is the only thing holding us back from His eternal vengeance!" I look at the same emphasis on love and I say, "Wow, God's vengeance is the only thing holding us back from His eternal love!" Being that God is love, which one makes more sense?

[pcosmar]

No sir, I think it is illustrative of the fact that you don't have a Biblical theology that understands the holiness and justice of God.

I was thinking exactly the same thing of you..

you paint God as a heartless capricious narcissistic tyrant.. I do believe He is Just. and not capricious. He is also merciful.

Yes,, He is a sovereign God,, and can do whatsoever he chooses. I just believe that He chooses differently than you do.

[wizardwatson]

No sir, I think it is illustrative of the fact that you don't have a Biblical theology that understands the holiness and justice of God.

I don't think you understand the "would I say the things I say about Jesus and God if both were standing right next to me which I should always consider since they may as well be given their dominion over facts and circumstances concerning reality"-ness of God.

[Sola_Fide]

I don't believe that God needs people to burn forever in order to feel better. You have not provided a single Bible verse to support that bovine scat. You have turned the Bible on its head and made God a liar. God said "You shall surely die." You teach Lucifer's lie that "You shall NOT surely die." Do you even understand the reason why God kicked Adam and Eve out of the garden of Eden? Hint. It wasn't to satiate His wrath.

Edit: One more thing. John taught that Jesus' propitiation was not just for the sins of Christians, but for the entire world. I know. You don't believe John actually meant what he said. But that's the only rational reading of 1 John 2:2.

To "feel better"? No. This is the consequence of sin. God would not be just if He did not punish sin. God is the righteous judge, and all of His judgments are right.

[wizardwatson]

To "feel better"? No. This is the consequence of sin. God would not be just if He did not punish sin. God is the righteous judge, and all of His judgments are right.

God wouldn't be just if he didn't punish sin?

Or, God wouldn't be just if he didn't punish sin for you to witness?

Somehow I think it's the latter. Why? Because if he didn't punish sinners for you to watch how 'o how are you going to get confirmation that you are one of the elect?

[jmdrake]

To "feel better"? No. This is the consequence of sin. God would not be just if He did not punish sin. God is the righteous judge, and all of His judgments are right.

I take it you don't know what the word "satiate" means. If God says the wages of sin is death (as opposed to eternal life in hell) then sin is punished by annihilation.

[Sola_Fide]

God wouldn't be just if he didn't punish sin?

Or, God wouldn't be just if he didn't punish sin for you to witness?

Somehow I think it's the latter. Why? Because if he didn't punish sinners for you to watch how 'o how are you going to get confirmation that you are one of the elect?

It doesn't have anything to do with the elect or the non-elect. It has to do with God glorifying His justice and His mercy.

[Sola_Fide]

I take it you don't know what the word "satiate" means. If God says the wages of sin is death (as opposed to eternal life in hell) then sin is punished by annihilation.

No, you don't know what it means. Because if Jesus satisfied the wrath of God for every man, every man would be saved.

If you were consistent, you would be a universalist like PaulWV is.

[jmdrake]

It doesn't have anything to do with the elect or the non-elect. It has to do with God glorifying His justice and His mercy.

It actually has nothing to do with anything but your own perverted imagination. You're position isn't biblical. Or if it is you haven't given a source for it.

[moostraks]

It doesn't have anything to do with the elect or the non-elect. It has to do with God glorifying His justice and His mercy.

Your choice to avoid telling the rest of this oft told sentence by you is telling...

[jmdrake]

No, you don't know what it means.

Yeah I do. Satiate or satisfy means to be made to feel better. If you are hungry and you are then satisfied you feel better. Jesus sacrifice isn't about making God feel better. God said he takes no pleasure in the destruction of the wicked. But there is a wage to be paid for sin. That wage, according to the Bible, is death. It is not eternal torture. You have made God a liar.

[wizardwatson]

It doesn't have anything to do with the elect or the non-elect. It has to do with God glorifying His justice and His mercy.

You really breathe life into the saying, "when you only have a hammer, everything looks like a nail."

All things to the glory of God!!!!!!!

Why did this happen? - To show God's glory.
How did it happen? - Because God showed His glory.
When did it happen? - When God was at His most glorious.

Is God's name Jealous or Gloria?

God is REASONABLE. God loves reason. God loves stories that make sense.

You can't answer every "why" and criticism with - SMACK!!! - He is sovereign. All he does is for His Glory. Period.

God doesn't hide behind, "Because I can! So shut it!", so why do you?

[Brett85]

I don't believe we have a clear understanding of Hell.

We have descriptions written in ancient languages,, that were the best that men with limited ability were able to describe.

I have the feeling that it is worse than any possible description that human tongue is capable of describing.

Hell was never made for Man. It was made as a place for the punishment of powerful spiritual beings (The devil and his followers).

It doesn't exist at all. The word "hell" was simply a word that was created by English translators and inserted into the Bible. Jesus never taught such a concept. Jesus taught about Gehenna, which as I mentioned earlier is a literal place located outside of Jerusalem. It's not some place located within the earth's core where people are tormented with fire. Jesus spoke of a literal place located right outside of Jerusalem.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gehenna