The truth about hell fire

[jmdrake]

You are saying the punishment for the one who ceased has ended. How can their punishment continue if that one doesn't exist?

Is Sodom still physically burning?

And of course this is blasphemous. Only CHRIST can satisfy the wrath of God against a person, not anyone or anything else, including their cessation.

Right. When you can't when an argument through the Bible or through logic rely on scare tactics and emotion and call the other side "blaphemous." You'd make a very good pope.

[Sola_Fide]

Is Sodom still physically burning?



Right. When you can't when an argument through the Bible or through logic rely on scare tactics and emotion and call the other side "blaphemous." You'd make a very good pope.

To say that anyone or anything can satisfy (end) the wrath of God other than Christ is blasphemous. This is why annihilationists are not Christians and dont love Jesus.

[jmdrake]

Just to play devil's advocate here... God promises that the gates of Hell will never prevail against his church. Now, that doesn't mean no churches (small c) will go apostate. But if there was ever a time where there were no true Christians on the earth, it would seem that Satan had indeed overcome the church.

Where were the true Christians between John the Apostle and John Calvin?

One argument I've received is that the Catholic Church kept careful records of heresies during the first fifteen centuries of its existance, but there was no "Protestant" heresy before Martin Luther. Why do you think that is?

Where do you get the false idea that Martin Luther was the first Protestant?

[jmdrake]

To say that anyone or anything can satisfy (end) the wrath of God other than Christ is blasphemous. This is why annihilationists are not Christians and dont love Jesus.

Whenever someone goes around calling others non Christians based on nothing but their own shouting, as you do all of that time, that proves that the person (you in this case) is actually an agent of Satan. You argument is made without Bible and full of emotion. Come with the Bible or don't come at all.

Edit: And I noticed that you still don't want to address the Biblical point that Sodom isn't still physically burning.

[Sola_Fide]

Whenever someone goes around calling others non Christians based on nothing but their own shouting, as you do all of that time, that proves that the person (you in this case) is actually an agent of Satan. You argument is made without Bible and full of emotion. Come with the Bible or don't come at all.

Edit: And I noticed that you still don't want to address the Biblical point that Sodom isn't still physically burning.

Sodom and Gomorrah burning has nothing to do with my argument. You can't answer my charge of blasphemy because...well, you just can't. You don't believe that Jesus alone satisfies the wrath of God, therefore it's not a Christian viewpoint.

Furthermore, it would be rather difficult for an "agent of Satan" to believe in Christ alone in all things. I do believe in Christ alone in all things, you dont.

[acptulsa]

To say that anyone or anything can satisfy (end) the wrath of God other than Christ is blasphemous. This is why annihilationists are not Christians and dont love Jesus.

But if Jesus is reigning on the Day of Judgment, then it's Jesus who either annihilates or sends to eternal torment those toward whom God's wrath is directed. So, how would it be 'someone or something other than Christ', and if it isn't, then how does God's wrath not get sated by that annihilation?

You get so hung up on these 'logical links' that pretend to knit your dogma together, but the majority of them aren't logical, aren't links, and knit nothing together at all.

Furthermore, it would be rather difficult for an "agent of Satan" to believe in Christ alone in all things. I do believe in Christ alone in all things, you dont.

An agent of Satan will say anything at all provided it serves his evil ends. And as far as I'm concerned, your opinion about what Mr. Drake believes and seven dollars will buy a five dollar cup of froufrou coffee. The extra two bucks, by the way, is a tip for making the barista listen to the tripe.

[TER]

Where do you get the false idea that Martin Luther was the first Protestant?

I think that might be nitpicking, although most historians would consider Luther as the founder of Protestantism.

The greater question he is asking, which has yet to be answered, is where are these "Biblical Christians" which Sola claims but doesn't want to name?

[Sola_Fide]

But if Jesus is reigning on the Day of Judgment, then it's Jesus who either annihilates or sends to eternal torment those toward whom God's wrath is directed. So, how would it be 'someone or something other than Christ', and if it isn't, then how does God's wrath not get sated by that annihilation?

You get so hung up on these 'logical links' that pretend to knit your dogma together, but the majority of them aren't logical, aren't links, and knit nothing together at all.

Because in the cessation of existence, God no longer has wrath against that person. How could He? The person no longer exists.

Christians believe only Jesus can satisfy (end) the wrath of God against a person. When Jesus said "it is finished", He meant it. And He was the only one who could say that.

[acptulsa]

Because in the cessation of existence, God no longer has wrath against that person. How could He? The person no longer exists.

Christians believe only Jesus can satisfy (end) the wrath of God against a person. When Jesus said "it is finished", He meant it. And He was the only one who could say that.

Now you've done your Gregorian Chant and repeated your totally illogical dogma. Well, I guess you had to do that or you'd explode. Now. Answer the question, Mr. God Made My Brain in His Image. If you can.

[jmdrake]

Sodom and Gomorrah burning has nothing to do with my argument. You can't answer my charge of blasphemy because...well, you just can't. You don't believe that Jesus alone satisfies the wrath of God, therefore it's not a Christian viewpoint.

You argument was made without a single biblical reference so as far as I'm concerned it doesn't exist. You claim to be sola scriptura but you are really sola your own arrogant and ignorant self. Nowhere in the Bible does it say anything about hell being tied to satisfying God's wrath nor does it say that people must burn forever in order to satisfy God's wrath. The Bible does teach that the wages of sin is death. You are perpetuating Satan's first lie by claiming that sinners never die.

Furthermore, it would be rather difficult for an "agent of Satan" to believe in Christ alone in all things. I do believe in Christ alone in all things, you dont.

You don't believe in Christ. You believe in yourself. You make arguments based on your own reasoning and without using any Bible to back it up. That is what Satan does.

Edit: And here is why you don't want to address the point about Sodom burning. That's because that's a Biblical point and you don't really believe the Bible. If you tried to actually use the Bible to back up your argument you would fail and you know that. So you make post after post that contains not a single Bible verse, and say others are "blaspheming" for disagreeing with you, and in the process you put yourself in the place of God.

[wizardwatson]

Because in the cessation of existence, God no longer has wrath against that person. How could He? The person no longer exists.

Christians believe only Jesus can satisfy (end) the wrath of God against a person. When Jesus said "it is finished", He meant it. And He was the only one who could say that.

Sola,

Why did Jesus lose faith on the cross?

[Sola_Fide]

Now you've done your Gregorian Chant and repeated your totally illogical dogma. Well, I guess you had to do that or you'd explode. Now. Answer the question. If you can.

To be honest, I don't even think you understood what I said. You've probably never even heard the argument before.

[Sola_Fide]

Sola,

Why did Jesus lose faith on the cross?

Source?

[jmdrake]

Now you've done your Gregorian Chant and repeated your totally illogical dogma.

LOL Sad but true.

[jmdrake]

Source?

I can't believe you are asking for a source when you give none for your crap.

[acptulsa]

To be honest, I don't even think you understood what I said. You've probably never even heard the argument before.

You deduced that from the fact that you ducked my question and I called you on it? I was brainwashed with more tripe than you will ever know. But, bless Him, God gave me the ability to reason that tripe right into the garbage pail where it belongs. And as you should have learned by now, repetition will never replant that tripe in my head.

Answer the question. If Jesus annihilates, then how could that not possibly be God sating His vengeance through Jesus? How is that impossible?

Source?

The Bible, S_F. The Bible. Try reading it some time.

And about the ninth houre, Iesus cried with a loud voyce, saying, Eli, Eli, Lamasabachthani, that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

[TER]

Sola,

Why did Jesus lose faith on the cross?

Christ didn't lose faith on the cross. That is something I also believed and interpreted in reading the Bible on my own, but after reading the writings of the Church Fathers and the historical practices of the Jews at the time, Christ was referencing the Psalm which prophecized His crucifixion. It was standard practice at that time to say the first line of a Psalm to refer to it. If you read the Psalm in it's entirety, it is not about losing faith. It is about God NOT forsaking Him or mankind and about having complete trust in God!

[wizardwatson]

Source?

Matthew 27:46 And about the ninth hour Jesus cried with a loud voice, saying, Eli, Eli, lama sabachthani? that is to say, My God, my God, why hast thou forsaken me?

WW

[TER]

Psalm 22

My God, My God, why have You forsaken Me?
Why are You so far from helping Me,
And from the words of My groaning?
2 O My God, I cry in the daytime, but You do not hear;
And in the night season, and am not silent.

3 But You are holy,
Enthroned in the praises of Israel.
4 Our fathers trusted in You;
They trusted, and You delivered them.
5 They cried to You, and were delivered;
They trusted in You, and were not ashamed.

6 But I am a worm, and no man;
A reproach of men, and despised by the people.
7 All those who see Me ridicule Me;
They shoot out the lip, they shake the head, saying,
8 “He trusted[b] in the Lord, let Him rescue Him;
Let Him deliver Him, since He delights in Him!”

9 But You are He who took Me out of the womb;
You made Me trust while on My mother’s breasts.
10 I was cast upon You from birth.
From My mother’s womb
You have been My God.
11 Be not far from Me,
For trouble is near;
For there is none to help.

12 Many bulls have surrounded Me;
Strong bulls of Bashan have encircled Me.
13 They gape at Me with their mouths,
Like a raging and roaring lion.

14 I am poured out like water,
And all My bones are out of joint;
My heart is like wax;
It has melted within Me.
15 My strength is dried up like a potsherd,
And My tongue clings to My jaws;
You have brought Me to the dust of death.

16 For dogs have surrounded Me;
The congregation of the wicked has enclosed Me.
They pierced[c] My hands and My feet;
17 I can count all My bones.
They look and stare at Me.
18 They divide My garments among them,
And for My clothing they cast lots.

19 But You, O Lord, do not be far from Me;
O My Strength, hasten to help Me!
20 Deliver Me from the sword,
My precious life from the power of the dog.
21 Save Me from the lion’s mouth
And from the horns of the wild oxen!

You have answered Me.

22 I will declare Your name to My brethren;
In the midst of the assembly I will praise You.
23 You who fear the Lord, praise Him!
All you descendants of Jacob, glorify Him,
And fear Him, all you offspring of Israel!
24 For He has not despised nor abhorred the affliction of the afflicted;
Nor has He hidden His face from Him;
But when He cried to Him, He heard.

25 My praise shall be of You in the great assembly;
I will pay My vows before those who fear Him.
26 The poor shall eat and be satisfied;
Those who seek Him will praise the Lord.
Let your heart live forever!

27 All the ends of the world
Shall remember and turn to the Lord,
And all the families of the nations
Shall worship before You.[d]
28 For the kingdom is the Lord’s,
And He rules over the nations.

29 All the prosperous of the earth
Shall eat and worship;
All those who go down to the dust
Shall bow before Him,
Even he who cannot keep himself alive.

30 A posterity shall serve Him.
It will be recounted of the Lord to the next generation,
31 They will come and declare His righteousness to a people who will be born,
That He has done this.

[jllundqu]

God is love.... except when he sees fit to smite the first born of an entire city or condemn you to eternal flame-torture for exercising free will.

Christianity is too funny sometimes. So many inconsitencies that get either shrugged off or rationalized cuz "it's GOD, duh!"

[Brett85]

Because in the cessation of existence, God no longer has wrath against that person. How could He? The person no longer exists.

It's because God still has wrath against that person that that person no longer exists and will never again exist.

[TER]

God is love.... except when he sees fit to smite the first born of an entire city or condemn you to eternal flame-torture for exercising free will.

Christianity is too funny sometimes. So many inconsitencies that get either shrugged off or rationalized cuz "it's GOD, duh!"

People are condemned to eternal torture because they willfully reject the love of God and life which comes from God. It will be the same love which be to one as Paradise which to another will be as a hell. Blaming one's state of judgement on God after the record of their sins are exposed will be a fruitless exercise. Their own sins will accuse them and be their judgment on that day.

[wizardwatson]

Christ didn't lose faith on the cross. That is something I also believed and interpreted in reading the Bible on my own, but after reading the writings of the Church Fathers and the historical practices of the Jews at the time, Christ was referencing the Psalm which prophecized His crucifixion. It was standard practice at that time to say the first line of a Psalm to refer to it. If you read the Psalm in it's entirety, it is not about losing faith. It is about overcoming doubt and having complete trust in God!

So he was quoting scripture to fulfill a prophecy? The act may have fulfilled prophecy but "fulfilling prophecy" is not the act itself. To me, saying that "he didn't really lose faith" in this scenario is like saying, "Oh, he didn't really ride into town on an ass, that was just fulfilling prophecy."

He DID lose faith. He was abandoned. Deep in affliction.

I don't understand this persistent attempt by so many to deny that Jesus was just as normal a guy as any one of you. The magic powers thing isn't really a big deal. You could have magic powers to if God wanted you to have them for some reason. Losing faith at the moment of his triumph was part of the journey.

Anyway, my point to Sola_Fide was that even Jesus with all his knowledge, power, position...with all the "logical connections" he had to confirm that he was who he was, his faith was still crushed under affliction.

I'm not sure how this relates. I lost my original thought whilst writing.

[TER]

So he was quoting scripture to fulfill a prophecy? The act may have fulfilled prophecy but "fulfilling prophecy" is not the act itself. To me, saying that "he didn't really lose faith" in this scenario is like saying, "Oh, he didn't really ride into town on an ass, that was just fulfilling prophecy."

He referenced the Psalm, and any Jew in ear shot would have known exactly what Psalm He was referencing to, which does not speak about doubt, but rather the opposite, namely complete trust.

He DID lose faith. He was abandoned. Deep in affliction.

Yes, that is what I mistakenly thought until I learned the truth by studying the writings of the Church Fathers and the historical practice of the Jews at that time.

I don't understand this persistent attempt by so many to deny that Jesus was just as normal a guy as any one of you. The magic powers thing isn't really a big deal. You could have magic powers to if God wanted you to have them for some reason. Losing faith at the moment of his triumph was part of the journey.

The 21 Christian martyrs who were killed, they didn't lose faith. They refused to convert to Islam or deny Christ, yet you believe that Christ, the living Word of God, would lose faith? Were these Egyptian martyrs more couragous and faithful than Christ?

Your are making a common mistake in saying Jesus was some 'regular guy' and in saying that He lost His faith on the cross.

Anyway, my point to Sola_Fide was that even Jesus with all his knowledge, power, position...with all the "logical connections" he had to confirm that he was who he was, his faith was still crushed under affliction.

I'm not sure how this relates. I lost my original thought whilst writing.

Again, no, Christ's faith was not crushed under affliction, just as it wasn't for those 21 Egyptian martyrs.

[acptulsa]

People. No wonder jllundqu laughs at Christians. I don't blame him.

If Jesus was a regular guy, and did lose faith, is that enough to cause you to lose faith in Him, TER? If Jesus were just a regular guy all along, would He have had the courage and strength to get that far, WW? Does it matter? Are we capable of understanding? Does God even want us to?

If God is immortal, and Jesus is God, then how did Jesus die? Answer me that one. Did God not have to forsake that body, if only for a minute, in order for that body to die? Do we wonder why it is that, when we get to parsing every damned detail this way, that everyone who values having a little mystery in life gets turned right off and runs away from us?

[Sola_Fide]

People. No wonder jllundqu laughs at Christians. I don't blame him.

If Jesus was a regular guy, and did lose faith, is that enough to cause you to lose faith in Him, TER? If Jesus were just a regular guy all along, would He have had the courage and strength to get that far, WW? Does it matter? Are we capable of understanding? Does God even want us to?

If God is immortal, and Jesus is God, then how did Jesus die? Answer me that one. Did God not have to forsake that body, if only for a minute, in order for that body to die? Do we wonder why it is that, when we get to parsing every damned detail this way, that everyone who values having a little mystery in life gets turned right off and runs away from us?

You laugh at Christians too.

[TER]

If Jesus was a regular guy, and did lose faith, is that enough to cause you to lose faith in Him, TER? If Jesus were just a regular guy all along, would He have had the courage and strength to get that far, WW? Does it matter? Are we capable of understanding? Does God even want us to?

But Jesus is not a regular guy, He is God incarnate. If He did lose faith on the cross, that wouldn't mean I would lose faith in Him, because as I said above, I once believed that and still had great faith in Him.

If God is immortal, and Jesus is God, then how did Jesus die? Answer me that one.

By His own will He experienced death. It was His perfect will to die so that He might heal death.

Did God not have to forsake that body, if only for a minute, in order for that body to die?

Christ accepted death to happen to Him not because He forsook His body, but so that the power of death over human nature would be made impotent.

Do we wonder why it is that, when we get to parsing every damned detail this way, that everyone who values having a little mystery in life gets turned right off and runs away from us?

These details are important in order for the apostolic and orthodox faith to be transmitted over time. Introducing false details or interpretations are what the great heretics have done which has cause schisms and separations and has led to the post-Christian world we live in now. So, details matter and mean something.

[acptulsa]

You laugh at Christians too.

Only the laughable ones.

These details are important in order for the apostolic and orthodox faith to be transmitted over time. Introducing false details or interpretations are what the great heretics have done which has cause schisms and separations and has led to the post-Christian world we live in now. So, details matter and mean something.

Very Creationist of you, so to speak. But faith has evolved over time. Once upon a time, there were people of so little faith that this faith was shaken by the fact that the Earth travels around the sun. I think we can all thank God that faith is generally stronger now than it was back then.

There are details and there are details. And there is faith and there is faith. There's faith like, God is good and my dogma is right so God made my dogma right and if you don't believe my dogma you're an idol worshipper. And there's faith like, I don't know, I can guess but might be wrong, but I do believe God had a good reason whether I can explain it or not. Which is the kind of faith Jesus advocated?

[acptulsa]

dp

[moostraks]

But Jesus is not a regular guy, He is God incarnate. If He did lose faith on the cross, that wouldn't mean I would lose faith in Him, because as I said above, I once believed that and still had great faith in Him.



By His own will He experienced death. It was His perfect will to die so that He might heal death.



Christ accepted death to happen to Him not because He forsook His body, but so that the power of death over human nature would be made impotent.



These details are important in order for the apostolic and orthodox faith to be transmitted over time. Introducing false details or interpretations are what the great heretics have done which has cause schisms and separations and has led to the post-Christian world we live in now. So, details matter and mean something.

The line for purpose of bringing forth the rest of the Psalm made sense to me when I heard it as well. These words were written in their minds and hearts much as commercial jingles and popular songs are nowadays. So to read the whole Psalm in context of the moment makes more sense imo...