Students refusing to pay their federal loans wrote to the Department of Education

[amy31416]

I need to set up an advice column for youngsters .

You really should consider it. I'd contribute to that column.

[VIDEODROME]

Basically, this seems like one of many cases where the government cranks out checks for other people to pay. As the lender or even investor, they should be looking for results if supposedly this is all for a better education workforce with more people employed in good jobs.

Sure a lot of kids will waste time "finding themselves" in college taking 6 years to finish what should be a 2 year degree, but many others are earnestly following the advice given to them. They're doing the work expecting this expensive piece of paper will get them a good job, but industry wants nothing to do with training noobies. They hold out for experience, because they know college kids have no experience with enterprise level equipment or software.

Just sayin a lot of kids really do the research, but have been severely mislead. Or the truth is that the industry they aimed for does have a high demand for jobs, but is only interested in industry veterans with 5-10 years experience. Noobies are expected to just invent their own experience somehow while somehow dealing with bills and keeping gas in their car.

It's hard to even volunteer anymore though, because people don't want someone that lacks experience to break their equipment. Also, for some stupid reason, I even talked to the V. A. Hospital and they only one people still in college doing official college internships, not someone out of college. Bunch of bull$#@!.

[aGameOfThrones]

Basically, this seems like one of many cases where the government cranks out checks for other people to pay. As the lender or even investor, they should be looking for results if supposedly this is all for a better education workforce with more people employed in good jobs.

Sure a lot of kids will waste time "finding themselves" in college taking 6 years to finish what should be a 2 year degree, but many others are earnestly following the advice given to them. They're doing the work expecting this expensive piece of paper will get them a good job, but industry wants nothing to do with training noobies. They hold out for experience, because they know college kids have no experience with enterprise level equipment or software.

Just sayin a lot of kids really do the research, but have been severely mislead. Or the truth is that the industry they aimed for does have a high demand for jobs, but is only interested in industry veterans with 5-10 years experience. Noobies are expected to just invent their own experience somehow while somehow dealing with bills and keeping gas in their car.

It's hard to even volunteer anymore though, because people don't want someone that lacks experience to break their equipment. Also, for some stupid reason, I even talked to the V. A. Hospital and they only one people still in college doing official college internships, not someone out of college. Bunch of bull$#@!.

That's the MFing truth.

[heavenlyboy34]

That's the MFing truth.

A-MEN!

[The Free Hornet]

Don't lend what you can't afford to lose. The primary beneficiaries here are a bloated academia. I'd like to see where this group goes. Even unprincipled opposition is more than the GOP has mustered.

[phill4paul]

Don't lend what you can't afford to lose.

A motto taught to me loooong ago.

No, not all loans are created equal. That's why in non-cronyist industries/economies lenders expect collateral. Say you're a lender. An 18 y/o asks you to lend 10,000-20,000 FRNs to major in women's studies. He offers nothing as collateral should he default. He graduates into an economy which can't offer him a job and he lacks the personalty traits to be an entrepreneur. You gave away thousands of FRNs to a dumbass kid on a gamble that he might somehow figure out how to repay. That's just plain dumb lending practice.


You're right, it is easy for a rational person to think through consequences of taking out a loan. But, few 18 y/o's are so rational. AND, as I mentioned before, a sane lender would recognize that the borrower is an unwise/irrational investment-and demand collateral accordingly. The lenders took an insanely dumb gamble because Uncle Sam made them greedy. As with other types of loans, let the lenders eat the loss for being stupid. The free market can be a cruel mistress to the greedy and foolish.

(IMO, people ought to pay back the loans like I am, but it's rational to tell predatory lenders to take a hike as in every other walk of life)

I'll not shed a tear for the lenders that hopped on the education bandwagon knowing it was an unwise investment. No more so than the housing lenders that hopped on the same bandwagon.

And like the housing lenders they did so because they are expecting a bail out of similar proportions. The lenders planned on this as a safety.

But some would rather excoriate the kids that have a degree that can't find a job above minimum wage, in an economy wrecked by government policy, than the lending institutions that are hoping, and rightfully so, that the government will pull their ass out of the fire.

[aGameOfThrones]

Even for a crappy job they are asking for 1 or 2 years of experience. How are you going to get experience when nobody will hire you without experience? $#@!!

[heavenlyboy34]

Even for a crappy job they are asking for 1 or 2 years of experience. How are you going to get experience when nobody will hire you without experience? $#@!!

Work for nothing, of course! Servitude FTW! /sarc

[kcchiefs6465]

They want a free education in a school they didn't care enough to research in a degree program they didn't care to research.

These people have no right to complain about the debt they brought onto themselves. These are the welfare 15.

Im making 6 figures and I didn't go to college. I could have gone but didn't see any benefit in it. I do real work in a real field that has a real need for more people like me. Oh, I never asked anyone for anything. Keep my head up and a smile on my face, and do even the most tedious and dirty jobs with a positive attitude with only the top quality completion of the job as my goal.

It's really that simple. Throw these 15 in jail for defrauding the govt.

While I understand the sentiment and agree with you in large part, the educational system these children were forced into stressed the importance (even the need) of college, mandated that they sit down and explore possible career paths with regards to 'higher education', and lied about the figures.

I remember it well. Taken from class, the whole group, put on computers, taken to a government website that had charts and graphs about various fields and their supposed expected growth.

The government defrauds you by debasing the currency to finance these waste of times. Who really ought to be put in jail?

Furthermore, there are no crimes against the state. There are simply crimes. Now while they should be repaying what they took, as well as bankruptcy laws being applicable to their financial situation, they defrauded no one. The institution that pimps overpriced and state licensed education on the naive and easily manipulated should be addressed.

It will be near a whole generation in debt and the bubble bursting will probably collapse this economy. Surely once they have the votes to say, through legislation, that they will not pay, the legislation will be written and it will pass (the people of America will pay--the banks bailed out).

I hear the train a coming...

[kcchiefs6465]

And that's before I even get started on government guaranteed loans. The whole thing is a cluster $#@! and is quite frankly what will drive this country into a socialist despotism.

[kcchiefs6465]

Even for a crappy job they are asking for 1 or 2 years of experience. How are you going to get experience when nobody will hire you without experience? $#@!!

You volunteer. You watch videos and learn about that which you are trying to make yourself hireable for. You speak to people in the industry. You'd be amazed at how aware many are. You can imagine my annoyance when the pittance they take from me is siphoned. Now consider the annoyance of those who write checks in the tens of thousands of dollars to the government annually.

There are countless ways to make yourself more employable. Once you get your foot in the door, you gain a few references, you showcase work ethic and dependability, the sky is the limit. Now of course other factors are at play but regardless, being successful is a state of mind, mainly. Education and a willingness to work are the most surefire ways to get noticed. I've talked to my boss's boss's boss in depth about issues I see. All within the proper channels and as well, there is a time and place to make a point.

For instance if I was going to apply at a machine shop manufacturing AR uppers, as the business is booming and there are quite a few shops in the area, I'd go to Youtube and watch a few hours on the process. I'd know shop terminology and would be able to speak on the subject with some confidence. I'd go to forums and ask questions on particulars that I did not understand. I would talk to people I know who run or have ran CNC mills. I'd go to the library and check out a book on the matter. I'd make myself friendly to the locals who participate in such employment. Bars. Frequent a few near the work site. Talk to people. Know the issues. For instance, with said employment avenue, one should be versed on firearms and firearms legislation. This is just one possible avenue in a jobs market that has been completely degraded through legislation and regulation, as well as the tax system.

I find often (and of course I'm not referring to you) that the people who speak about jobs being hard to come by, etc. are the people who advocate for the laws that make such a relative truth so.

[heavenlyboy34]

You volunteer. You watch videos and learn about that which you are trying to make yourself hireable for. You speak to people in the industry. You'd be amazed at how aware many are. You can imagine my annoyance when the pittance they take from me is siphoned. Now consider the annoyance of those who write checks in the tens of thousands of dollars to the government annually.

There are countless ways to make yourself more employable. Once you get your foot in the door, you gain a few references, you showcase work ethic and dependability, the sky is the limit. Now of course other factors are at play but regardless, being successful is a state of mind, mainly. Education and a willingness to work are the most surefire ways to get noticed. I've talked to my boss's boss's boss in depth about issues I see. All within the proper channels and as well, there is a time and place to make a point.

For instance if I was going to apply at a machine shop manufacturing AR uppers, as the business is booming and there are quite a few shops in the area, I'd go to Youtube and watch a few hours on the process. I'd know shop terminology and would be able to speak on the subject with some confidence. I'd go to forums and ask questions on particulars that I did not understand. I would talk to people I know who run or have ran CNC mills. I'd go to the library and check out a book on the matter. I'd make myself friendly to the locals who participate in such employment. Bars. Frequent a few near the work site. Talk to people. Know the issues. For instance, with said employment avenue, one should be versed on firearms and firearms legislation. This is just one possible avenue in a jobs market that has been completely degraded through legislation and regulation, as well as the tax system.

I find often (and of course I'm not referring to you) that the people who speak about jobs being hard to come by, etc. are the people who advocate for the laws that make such a relative truth so.

That's all well and good for someone who has some kind of decent income stream or perhaps an undergrad living with family. For the average college grad/entry level person, exchanging labor and time for experience is a quick route to poverty because unless you're on the dole, you're going to accumulate debt faster than income. (gaining experience by working for nothing doesn't pay the bills) I thought about becoming a design intern/assistant, but at the school I went to it costs 3 credit hours, which ain't cheap. (something like 350 FRNs in 2008)

IMHO, the best future for the typical person lies in "Non-Jobs" rather than working for a company. See http://nonjob.org/ for more on "non-jobs".

[TheTexan]

IMHO, the best future for the typical person lies in "Non-Jobs" rather than working for a company. See http://nonjob.org/ for more on "non-jobs".

Can you give a summary of what a non-job is that doesn't require me to fill in a form, or listen to a 20 minute marketing video?

[heavenlyboy34]

Can you give a summary of what a non-job is that doesn't require me to fill in a form, or listen to a 20 minute marketing video?

I would be more inclined to do so in detail if you had been more polite than giving me a nasty -rep. :P I suppose a decent tl:dr version would be: turning something you love or enjoy doing into your job instead of working for someone else. This is typically something like what Elliot Hulse does-he started up his own gym to train athletes and people who just want to be fit.

[heavenlyboy34]

IDK why the website sucks now, but here's one of Elliot's videos on the subject that used to be there.

[kcchiefs6465]

That's all well and good for someone who has some kind of decent income stream or perhaps an undergrad living with family. For the average college grad/entry level person, exchanging labor and time for experience is a quick route to poverty because unless you're on the dole, you're going to accumulate debt faster than income. (gaining experience by working for nothing doesn't pay the bills) I thought about becoming a design intern/assistant, but at the school I went to it costs 3 credit hours, which ain't cheap. (something like 350 FRNs in 2008)

IMHO, the best future for the typical person lies in "Non-Jobs" rather than working for a company. See http://nonjob.org/ for more on "non-jobs".

You don't have to be on the dole. Having someone in your life with an income is helpful, or even better having income coming in of your own, but it is not necessary.

Even with how completely distorted things are, there are still charities and churches etc. which will help one get clothes, a haircut, give them a place to shower, feed them, etc.

I didn't go as in-depth as I perhaps should have (most people aren't going to read more than a funny one liner anyways, so I was trying to keep it relatively brief).

There are fundamental problems with this current system that impede progress with regards to job creation. Anyone who does not believe me, I leave it simply as an eye opening experience to think of something you'd like to do and then research the regulations and cost of starting up said business in said sector. I thought I knew the breadth of it but it is really beyond one's wildest imagination. Take a simple lemonade stand and the regulations involved with that. Now imagine countless alphabet agencies applying their own regulations and interpretations of law and it is easy to see why productivity is stymied.

Not to mention they piss away capital on bombing helpless peasants as well as their virtually endless plethora of schemes and scams. They study duck dicks through the debasement of the currency, enact a minimum wage preventing many entry level opportunities, and tax the people upwards of 50 plus percent. Then it is, "Well why aren't there any jobs!?" As if one needs a crystal ball and Godly clairvoyance to recognize the issue's integral to this system. One in nine of the employed work for the government. They make more off of the theft from people than the people who are stolen from themselves make. Of course it isn't going to work.

It is difficult to be concise and touch on the issue when so many things are at fault. I just recently met a guy who got hit with a $22,000 fine for not having an electrician's license. It's $25,000 per instance of not collecting the run off water from pressure washing. Each time an employee does not take at least a thirty minute lunch, it's $3,000. That's on the rather 'fair' end of their bureaucracy. Every city, county, state, and the federal government has their own regulations and 'laws'.... their own tax code.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

I remember someone here told me that there was no artificial barrier to entry with regards to manufacturing firearms--Someone who is very well versed on a lot of what I speak about. Needless to say, it took me all of ten seconds to find about ten artificial barriers to that particular market. The exact measurable effect on jobs will never be truly known.

[heavenlyboy34]

You don't have to be on the dole. Having someone in your life with an income is helpful, or even better having income coming in of your own, but it is not necessary.

Even with how completely distorted things are, there are still charities and churches etc. which will help one get clothes, a haircut, give them a place to shower, feed them, etc.

I didn't go as in-depth as I perhaps should have (most people aren't going to read more than a funny one liner anyways, so I was trying to keep it relatively brief).

There are fundamental problems with this current system that impede progress with regards to job creation. Anyone who does not believe me, I leave it simply as an eye opening experience to think of something you'd like to do and then research the regulations and cost of starting up said business in said sector. I thought I knew the breadth of it but it is really beyond one's wildest imagination. Take a simple lemonade stand and the regulations involved with that. Now imagine countless alphabet agencies applying their own regulations and interpretations of law and it is easy to see why productivity is stymied.

Not to mention they piss away capital on bombing helpless peasants as well as their virtually endless plethora of schemes and scams. They study duck dicks through the debasement of the currency, enact a minimum wage preventing many entry level opportunities, and tax the people upwards of 50 plus percent. Then it is, "Well why aren't there any jobs!?" As if one needs a crystal ball and Godly clairvoyance to recognize the issue's integral to this system. One in nine of the employed work for the government. They make more off of the theft from people than the people who are stolen from themselves make. Of course it isn't going to work.

It is difficult to be concise and touch on the issue when so many things are at fault. I just recently met a guy who got hit with a $22,000 fine for not having an electrician's license. It's $25,000 per instance of not collecting the run off water from pressure washing. Each time an employee does not take at least a thirty minute lunch, it's $3,000. That's on the rather 'fair' end of their bureaucracy. Every city, county, state, and the federal government has their own regulations and 'laws'.... their own tax code.

The whole thing is ridiculous.

I remember someone here told me that there was no artificial barrier to entry with regards to manufacturing firearms--Someone who is very well versed on a lot of what I speak about. Needless to say, it took me all of ten seconds to find about ten artificial barriers to that particular market. The exact measurable effect on jobs will never be truly known.

+rep for thoughtful and good post.

[angelatc]

They want a free education in a school they didn't care enough to research in a degree program they didn't care to research.



It's really that simple. Throw these 15 in jail for defrauding the govt.

Here's the kicker for me: they aren't really paying any interest.

The interest comes right off their taxable income. If you made $20,200 and paid $1,000 in interest, combined with the $6,200 exemption, your taxable income would only be $13,000 and you'd get a huge refund back.

[angelatc]

That's all well and good for someone who has some kind of decent income stream or perhaps an undergrad living with family. For the average college grad/entry level person, exchanging labor and time for experience is a quick route to poverty because unless you're on the dole, you're going to accumulate debt faster than income. (gaining experience by working for nothing doesn't pay the bills) I thought about becoming a design intern/assistant, but at the school I went to it costs 3 credit hours, which ain't cheap. (something like 350 FRNs in 2008)

IMHO, the best future for the typical person lies in "Non-Jobs" rather than working for a company. See http://nonjob.org/ for more on "non-jobs".

I agree 100% about finding your own work. Most of the services we hire are from people who used to be employees and are working off Craigslist. Our mechanic comes to the house. We do not have a garage, and he would work in the snow if I called him. I do not need my car that bad though, so I am not going to ask him to do that.

I did taxes for 2 women this year who both had husbands that left them with kids. Both of them started cleaning houses out of desperation, and both of them made over $25000 this year. It stands to be seen if they can take it to the next level.

My friend's husband was laid off in Florida 25 years ago and he started running ads in the little free paper for home handyman services. Today he employs 7 people, and most of his work is still generated by word of mouth.

[paleocon1]

..............................
Edited to add: I am up to here with people whining about being victims of society or banks or whatever. They had choices. The answer is not to victimize everyone else.

There are many who were in fact victimized by rent seeking banksters. The Answer is to confiscate the illgotten rent seeking personal and corporate gains. Use those funds to cover the State's expenses rather than taxes on the mundanes.