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Thread: False Trinity, Heresy, and the Two Witnesses of Revelation (God the Father and Mary)

  1. #151
    I'm all alone...there's no one there to deride me ~ ~ ~

    Tough crowd. Seems everyone already left.

    Done workin' for the day.

    Going home, hopefully.
    Going home hopefully.
    Going home feeling, well, just tired.

    You know I haven't had a banana split in a while. Maybe I'll try it with some sprinkles.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  3. #152
    Hoping to drag this thread back on topic, but not really sure why.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=two+...gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=



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  5. #153
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Hoping to drag this thread back on topic, but not really sure why.

    https://www.google.com/search?q=two+...gbv=2&oq=&gs_l=
    L how many R U ?

  6. #154
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    L how many R U ?
    At last count, I R 1.

  7. #155
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    At last count, I R 1.
    How many 0's make 1 4 33 ?

  8. #156
    Uncallable stalemate.

  9. #157
    Upon further reflection and investigation it turns out that the premise of this thread is not entirely true. My apologies for any inconvenience.

    Don't believe everything you read.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  10. #158
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Upon further reflection and investigation it turns out that the premise of this thread is not entirely true. My apologies for any inconvenience.

    Don't believe everything you read.

    I think almost all of us here know better than to do that.

    What was the not entirely true premise, based on your further reflection and investigation?

  11. #159
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I think almost all of us here know better than to do that.

    What was the not entirely true premise, based on your further reflection and investigation?
    After all we've been through, I would think that YOU of all people would know that such a question is far too direct.

    Is there some specific premise that YOU think is not true as opposed to others that are?
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  12. #160
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    After all we've been through, I would think that YOU of all people would know that such a question is far too direct.

    Is there some specific premise that YOU think is not true as opposed to others that are?
    No.



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  14. #161
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    No.
    Well, that's a bummer.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  15. #162
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Well, that's a bummer.
    Not too direct: (What was the not entirely true premise, based on your further reflection and investigation?).

  16. #163
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    I think almost all of us here know better than to do that.

    What was the not entirely true premise, based on your further reflection and investigation?
    Well, my current intuition, after much reflection is that they represent the Jews and Gentiles. I don't know why I didn't think that at first. For some reason, well for many reasons, I was stuck on one of the Two Witnesses being a woman. I'm completely neutral on this point now.

    Jews and Gentiles as the "olive trees" makes sense the most. Because all of the elect will be Jews. It seems that there should be someone in the mix who is gentile. Because when the elect are sent out after the Two Witnesses, who will be the hero of the Gentiles? As many of them will be won to Christ during that time, it seems there should be some token of acceptance that is actually doing the witnessing.

    Anyway, that's where I'm at now. This is mega-high level mystery, so it's very shrouded.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  17. #164
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Well, my current intuition, after much reflection is that they represent the Jews and Gentiles. I don't know why I didn't think that at first. For some reason, well for many reasons, I was stuck on one of the Two Witnesses being a woman. I'm completely neutral on this point now.

    Jews and Gentiles as the "olive trees" makes sense the most. Because all of the elect will be Jews. It seems that there should be someone in the mix who is gentile. Because when the elect are sent out after the Two Witnesses, who will be the hero of the Gentiles? As many of them will be won to Christ during that time, it seems there should be some token of acceptance that is actually doing the witnessing.

    Anyway, that's where I'm at now. This is mega-high level mystery, so it's very shrouded.
    Haha!!!

    Just today I watched Rabbi Cahn's preaching on the mystery of the trees!

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5933531

    Beautiful, beautiful stuff. God is great.

    Basically the two olive trees are the church and Israel. Which is to say the priests and the remnant.

    So in light of this revelation it seems to me that both of the Two witnesses are probably men. One is simply non-priest, but still a Jew. But the PRIEST one might not actually be a jew, could be a gentile or maybe sOmEthiNg else.

    Anyway, not going to recover everything because mostly the story is the same, though now I"m leaning toward both of them being men.

    It's on like donkey kong
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  18. #165
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post



    Basically the two olive trees are the church and Israel.
    Nope. False.

    There is only one olive tree and it represents Jesus Christ and His Elect Church.



    It's on like donkey kong
    Do you really enjoy publically exhibiting your "donkey" ignorance?

    Silence is bliss and can often lead to actually learning TRUTH.

    Try it.

  19. #166
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedObserver View Post
    Nope. False.

    There is only one olive tree and it represents Jesus Christ and His Elect Church.





    Do you really enjoy publically exhibiting your "donkey" ignorance?

    Silence is bliss and can often lead to actually learning TRUTH.

    Try it.
    Where do you get your knowledge of the scripture, from a Cracker Jack box?

    Please don't come into my threads and call the Lord Jesus Christ a liar. You have been warned.

    Revelation 11:4 These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
    Google definition for word "two"

    #1 answer

    equivalent to the sum of one and one; one less than three; 2.
    Silence is bliss and can often lead to actually learning TRUTH.

    Try it.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  20. #167
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Where do you get your knowledge of the scripture, from a Cracker Jack box?

    Please don't come into my threads and call the Lord Jesus Christ a liar. You have been warned.
    The two olive trees of Revelation 11:4 describe the two candlesticks (the Holy Spirit's illuminating witness of Christ the Savior in this world.)

    They are representative of the single "olive tree" of Romans 11:15-26 which is the elect spiritual body of Jesus Christ, consisting of all regenerated Jews and Gentiles.





    Silence is bliss and can often lead to actually learning TRUTH.

    Try it.[/QUOTE]
    Last edited by ReformedObserver; 07-25-2015 at 09:12 PM.

  21. #168
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedObserver View Post
    The two olive trees of Revelation 11:4 are identify the two candlesticks (the Holy Spirit's illuminating witness of Christ the Savior in this world.)
    They are representative of the single "olive tree" of Romans 11:15-26 which is the elect spiritual body of Jesus Christ, consisting of all regenerated Jews and Gentiles.
    Silence is bliss and can often lead to actually learning TRUTH.
    Try it.
    Ok, yeah so the two things actually represent the one thing? Because "so sayeth" June 2015 joined Reformed Observer. This thread even predates your existence here. My basis for making the observation is because I actually watched Rabbi Cahn's hour long sermon on the mystery of the trees. and posted a link above to it in post #164 if you actually want to inform yourself instead of assuming you understand revelations. No one fully understands Revelation because God is revealing it right now.

    Let me guess, this interpretation is the "accepted" definition by the venerable "church fathers"?

    You are out of your element, Donny. You're like a child that wanders into the middle of a movie.

    Last edited by wizardwatson; 07-25-2015 at 09:15 PM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  23. #169
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post

    Let me guess, this interpretation is the "accepted" definition by the venerable "church fathers"?
    Yes.

    And they did not confess as being bipolar, either.

  24. #170
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedObserver View Post
    Yes.

    And they did not confess as being bipolar, either.
    Does Rabbi Cahn have bipolar disorder? You going to attack my credibility because I have bipolar disorder? Do you even know what it is?

    I have destroyed your argument right to your face in your very first post in my thread with scripture. Your first entry into my thread was to lie on Christ.

    You have lying about scripture and following false prophets disorder. Go away anti-christ spirit.

    Read "The Fire of God's Anger" and remove your Calvinist lies.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  25. #171
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    Does Rabbi Cahn have bipolar disorder? You going to attack my credibility because I have bipolar disorder? Do you even know what it is?

    I have destroyed your argument right to your face in your very first post in my thread with scripture. Your first entry into my thread was to lie on Christ.

    You have lying about scripture and following false prophets disorder. Go away anti-christ spirit.

    Read "The Fire of God's Anger" and remove your Calvinist lies.
    Triune God is one Divine Hypostasis.

    Mary is a created hypostasis, apart and eternally different in ousia than her Creator.

    You can use any approach you want to try, but you cannot prove God and Mary are the same (ousia).

  26. #172
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedObserver View Post
    Triune God is one Divine Hypostasis.

    Mary is a created hypostasis, apart and eternally different in ousia than her Creator.

    You can use any approach you want to try, but you cannot prove God and Mary are the same (ousia).
    You don't have a clue what you are talking about. This is a highly advanced thread that has been revised. There's a 4 month difference between post #162 and #163 and I put a note in the OP to that effect. Shortly before #162 I admitted that I was off base. Primarily though, many of the observations in this thread are valid.

    I'm no longer claiming that Mary is one of the Two Witnesses. Go build your ego on another thread or actually read and comprehend this one before you make ridiculous assertions that I myself have refuted or recanted.

    I can already tell by the flavor of your responses your biblical knowledge is inferior to mine. But I would love to be proven wrong.

    You are out of your element, Donny. You're like a child that wanders into the middle of a movie.

    Last edited by wizardwatson; 07-25-2015 at 09:34 PM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  27. #173
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post

    I'm no longer claiming that Mary is one of the Two Witnesses.
    Good.

    Are you also recanting of claiming that Mary is part of the Trinity because she supposedly married Jesus?

  28. #174
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedObserver View Post
    Good.

    Are you also recanting of claiming that Mary is part of the Trinity because she supposedly married Jesus?
    You are truly lost, friend. I never claimed Mary was part of the Trinity. I'm claiming that the Father is an independent conscious being that walks and talks and will be born on Earth like the Son was. Mary is part of the thread title, not the concept of the Trinity I'm refuting.

    So not only are you putting Mary in the trinity in my mouth, you're also putting Jesus being married in my mouth. Where did you even get that idea? Wasn't that from like the Davinci Code or something?

    Are we at peace now?

    EDIT: Oh, I'm not ruling out Mary being at the wedding though, just FYI. Things are getting weird.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  29. #175
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    You are truly lost, friend. I never claimed Mary was part of the Trinity. I'm claiming that the Father is an independent conscious being that walks and talks and will be born on Earth like the Son was. Mary is part of the thread title, not the concept of the Trinity I'm refuting.

    So not only are you putting Mary in the trinity in my mouth, you're also putting Jesus being married in my mouth. Where did you even get that idea? Wasn't that from like the Davinci Code or something?

    Are we at peace now?

    EDIT: Oh, I'm not ruling out Mary being at the wedding though, just FYI. Things are getting weird.
    Oh, that is right. You originally claimed "God" married Mary and produced Jesus. Since I consider Jesus to be "God," I overlooked your (unscriptural) claim and (unbiblical) conclusions.

    So do you deny the ultimate marriage of Jesus Christ to His church?


    Do you believe Mary is the "mother of God" or will she be a part of the "bride" of Christ?

  30. #176
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedObserver View Post
    Oh, that is right. You originally claimed "God" married Mary and produced Jesus. Since I consider Jesus to be "God," I overlooked your (unscriptural) claim and (unbiblical) conclusions.

    So do you deny the ultimate marriage of Jesus Christ to His church?

    Do you believe Mary is the "mother of God" or will she be a part of the "bride" of Christ?
    You considering "Jesus to be God" is precisely what I DO INDEED REFUTE. That is false. Isaiah 9:6 is clearly referring to the Father. The Father does come to Earth for the Terrible Day of the Lord. Indeed He is likely already here.

    All I've recanted is that two Witnesses are both likely men. But indeed there may be another Witness, a Silent Witness. Because the Two Witnesses who give testimony may be the Witnesses of judgement. While Mary may be alive to be a Witness to the Elect and to be part of the marriage of Christ (who will be a man-child or may be already) to the Church. There are too many possibilities really in this area of the mystery to speculate.

    The important point is who the Two Witnesses with the power of prophecy are as they will be the guides. Hence, my update after watching the mystery of the trees sermon. Why don't you follow the Rabbi? Read the Shemitah books? Maybe that is part of your destiny. You would be the first. Everyone else has too much pride and spiritual blindness to spend 5 hours reading a $10 book, or a couple hours even to listen to a man of God. It's quite sad.

    That thread has been there a week now and no one else has. Maybe instead of parroting the "church fathers" you've been carrying the muddied water for you can carry the poured out Spirit itself and come back and give testimony.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6



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  32. #177
    Quote Originally Posted by wizardwatson View Post
    You considering "Jesus to be God" is precisely what I DO INDEED REFUTE. That is false.
    .

    Then I refute that you are a Christian and am also therefore unable to believe any of your opinions posited regarding the holy and true Word of God.

    Nor will I be interested in reading any literary sources you recommend to sell your beliefs.

  33. #178
    Quote Originally Posted by ReformedObserver View Post
    .

    Then I refute that you are a Christian and am also therefore unable to believe any of your opinions posited regarding the holy and true Word of God.

    Nor will I be interested in reading any literary sources you recommend to sell your beliefs.
    So you claim that Isaiah 9:6 wherein it says "a child shall be born" and He will be called Everlasting Father, and Prince of Peace, is referring to the Son?

    The Son is the King, not the Prince.

    The Son is the Son, not the Father.

    You are lazy. That's all. If Jonathan Cahn was truly someone I was passing off as a danger, you should listen precisely so you could refute him and tell others where he is wrong.

    That's what I do when someone says so-and-so's theory of economics or philosophy is "da bomb". I research it and learn about it so I can crush my enemies.

    Stand up to me, if you think I'm a fraud. Don't run away. If you truly were a shepherd of the sheep you wouldn't leave someone like me out here unchallenged.

    Anyway, whatevs, bro.

    But yeah, no one thinks Jesus was married.

    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  34. #179
    "Till I see you next time, remember, read your bible and do what it says. - Monica Dennington"
    LOL.

    So this Two Witnesses mystery has kind of plagued me for some time. I've done a lot of thinking and it's probably the mystery that's been the most in flux for me since I started looking at it. Major changes to how I've thought about it this year. Even my July 25th post where I say I'm pretty sure I was wrong about one of them being a woman I'm back on the other side of that thinking that maybe that indeed is the case.

    Anyway, because of this I occasionally go fishing in the google-sphere and see what's being said. Usually I'll watch wackos claiming to be this or that because I try to understand false preaching as much as anything since it's so much more prevalent than true preaching I've always figured it's good to have a handle on what it is and what's out there.

    So when I ran across this video titled, "The Identity Of The Two Witnesses" that had a lot of views, I kind of figured I knew what I was in for.

    But this isn't at all what I thought. This was an excellent, probably the most excellent, even more excellent than my entire thread in a lot of ways, video on this subject on what the Two Witnesses are and what to look for and how to identify them. This Monica Dennington lady really captured my attention. I'm kind of an instant fan. You can tell when someone has a real spirit for preaching I think and I'd say she definitely has it. To me, when you hear someone read the bible and they're smiling and literally filled with joy just thinking about what they are reading it's obvious and she has that throughout this video.

    She approaches the subject very intelligently and soberly.

    And for those who still are repeating the tired line that the Two Witnesses are Elijah and Enoch (as if it matters more "who" than "what" they are and what their mission is), this is another believer who agrees that John the Baptist was the promised Elijah.

    People think that based partially on this:

    Malachi 4 5 Behold, I will send you Elijah the prophet before the coming of the great and dreadful day of the LORD: 6 And he shall turn the heart of the fathers to the children, and the heart of the children to their fathers, lest I come and smite the earth with a curse. {THE END OF THE PROPHETS.}
    But Jesus clearly said this:

    Matthew 11 13 For all the prophets and the law prophesied until John. 14 And if ye will receive it, this is Elias, which was for to come. 15 He that hath ears to hear, let him hear.
    So get it through your heads. Whoever told you that Elijah was one of the Two Witnesses because it "said he would come" and because "he didn't die" is denying that Jesus clearly said that John the Baptist was Elijah, and we know that John the Baptist most definitely did die. Which is only to say, noboby knows who they are. It's more important "what they are" and what they do. If your entire "church doctrine" is a SWAG on "who" they are, you haven't learned anything about the Two Witnesses in my opinion.

    So I highly recommend this video if you want some good end times preaching about how not only to recognize the Two Witnesses, but how not to be fooled by the beast and false prophet who might pretend to be the Two Witnesses, this video is quite excellent.



    I also want to point back to this post in my Shemitah thread about the mystery of the two trees:

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5933531

    Because it does make sense that the Two Witnesses are two priests. One from the "Olive Tree" of Israel, and one from the "Olive Tree" of the gentiles. In other words, they are both from the "church", but one is Jew and one is Gentile. Nothing Monica says in her video would contradict anything Rabbi Cahn mentions about the two trees. (Rabbi Cahn only vaguely mentions the two trees in reference to the Two Witnesses). I have yet to find any videos or teachings Rabbi Cahn has done on the Two Witnesses. His testimony on that subject is conspicuously absent. Which is a good thing really, it shows he understands how dangerous it would be to suggest or teach wrongly on that subject.

    Anyway, that's all for today. Just found this video and wanted to share.
    Last edited by wizardwatson; 08-12-2015 at 12:53 AM.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  35. #180
    This might blow your mind or rock you world, but remember what the word teaches us. Under the New Covenant of Jesus Christ--the true Jews are the believers/Christians and the gentiles represent all unbelievers. As Paul taught--there are no more *flesh and blood* Jews, Greeks or Gentiles of the Old Testament---All are either the spiritual true Jews (believers in Jesus Christ) or (unbelievers/Gentiles) in the New Testament.



    Revelation 2:9 I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.

    Revelation 3:9 Behold, I will make them of the synagogue of Satan, which say they are Jews, and are not, but do lie; behold, I will make them to come and worship before thy feet, and to know that I have loved thee.

    Believers in Jesus Christ "true Jew"

    Romans 2: 28For he is not a Jew, which is one outwardly; neither is that circumcision, which is outward in the flesh: 29But he is a Jew, which is one inwardly; and circumcision is that of the heart, in the spirit, and not in the letter; whose praise is not of men, but of God.

    God said--no man comes to the Father except through My Son Jesus Christ. If they deny the Lord Jesus--they are not the true Jews of New Testament. The Old Testament blood Jews, Greeks and Gentiles ceased to exist after the resurrection of Christ from the cross and the fulfilment of the Mosaic Law.

    Romans 9:
    6Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they
    are not all Israel, which are of Israel: 7Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called. 8That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

    God does not recognize blood lines or flesh and blood and is telling us here only those who are of the *spiritual Isreal*/believers in Jesus Christ are the true seed of Abraham and not the physical land or state of Israel or those who live there calling themselves Jews--they are not the true Jews or seed of Abraham if they deny the Lord Jesus Christ.

    Last edited by Terry1; 08-12-2015 at 06:42 AM.

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