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Thread: Antitrust Law - Needed or Not?

  1. #91
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    Moral Issues
    Axiom 1: Having a monopoly does not mean that you have done anything morally wrong, all of your property and clients can be justly acquired.
    Axiom 2: Antitrust laws only have value when they are back by forcing others to comply, such as with breaking up a monopoly by taking control over resources.
    Axiom 3: It is immoral to apply force against others when they have not done anything wrong.
    Axiom 4: Antitrust laws that are not based on addressing immoral actions are immoral as they will require force against others who did nothing wrong.
    Axiom 5: As the definition and scope of antitrust laws is not limited to immoral actions they are immoral.

    Individual Choice Issues
    Axiom 6: While it can be problematic for one company to gain a monopoly on something that does not guarantee they would do things you don’t like.
    Axiom 7: Antitrust laws remove your personal choice of what you find acceptable vs. not acceptable and puts it in the hands of the government.

    Government Power Issues
    Axiom 8: Antitrust laws give more control and power to the government.
    Axiom 9: The more power a government has the more likely it will become a target of corruption.
    Axiom 10: History and natural law show that the consolation of power will lead to a distortion of that power to favor the politically connected.

    Government Spending Issues
    Axiom 11: The development of antitrust laws, the monitoring of the market for violations and the prosecution of violators requires government spending unless everyone works for free.
    Axiom 12: People do not work for free, thus government spending is required.
    Axiom 13: Government spending requires additional revenue either with taxes, fees or fines.
    <Deferring discussion on the issues with taxes, fees or fines>
    Axiom 14: Government taxes and fees remove money from the free market.

    Free Market Alternative
    Axiom 15: The free market offers solutions that can stop undesirable behavior with the use of boycotts and bad public relations. Consumers with limited time can rely on third party research firms for important information or shop at retailors who purchase based on acceptable behavior policies by a company.

    Conclusion
    Free market solutions (Axiom 15) are superior to government solutions which are immoral (Axiom 5), reduce your choice (Axiom 7) and can actually make market matters worse (Axiom 10 and 14).

    Additional considerations could analyze the cost on the market to deal with antitrust laws and how companies unnecessarily distort themselves to adhere to the laws.
    That sums it up! To be strictly accurate, libertarian-wise, rather than "morally wrong," "done anything wrong," and "immoral actions" I would say instead aggressive actions. Whether or not an action is moral isn't really the point. In fact, it's irrelevant. Likewise, whether or not an action "harms" anyone (osan's criterium) is irrelevant. What is relevant is: did the actor aggress?

    I can set up a Big Scary Consulting Company and conspire to keep little guys like osan out of the consulting business all I want. That is not an act of aggression. It's not a tort. It's not anything. It's a business decision I am well within my rights to make. It won't work, but I can do it 'til the cows come home.



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  3. #92
    Quote Originally Posted by Bryan View Post
    I reformulated a better response to this question, breaking the problem down into specific issues with specific axioms for each issue.


    Moral Issues
    Axiom 1: Having a monopoly does not mean that you have done anything morally wrong, all of your property and clients can be justly acquired.
    Axiom 2: Antitrust laws only have value when they are back by forcing others to comply, such as with breaking up a monopoly by taking control over resources.
    Axiom 3: It is immoral to apply force against others when they have not done anything wrong.
    Axiom 4: Antitrust laws that are not based on addressing immoral actions are immoral as they will require force against others who did nothing wrong.
    Axiom 5: As the definition and scope of antitrust laws is not limited to immoral actions they are immoral.

    Individual Choice Issues
    Axiom 6: While it can be problematic for one company to gain a monopoly on something that does not guarantee they would do things you don’t like.
    Axiom 7: Antitrust laws remove your personal choice of what you find acceptable vs. not acceptable and puts it in the hands of the government.

    Government Power Issues
    Axiom 8: Antitrust laws give more control and power to the government.
    Axiom 9: The more power a government has the more likely it will become a target of corruption.
    Axiom 10: History and natural law show that the consolation of power will lead to a distortion of that power to favor the politically connected.

    Government Spending Issues
    Axiom 11: The development of antitrust laws, the monitoring of the market for violations and the prosecution of violators requires government spending unless everyone works for free.
    Axiom 12: People do not work for free, thus government spending is required.
    Axiom 13: Government spending requires additional revenue either with taxes, fees or fines.
    <Deferring discussion on the issues with taxes, fees or fines>
    Axiom 14: Government taxes and fees remove money from the free market.

    Free Market Alternative
    Axiom 15: The free market offers solutions that can stop undesirable behavior with the use of boycotts and bad public relations. Consumers with limited time can rely on third party research firms for important information or shop at retailors who purchase based on acceptable behavior policies by a company.

    Conclusion
    Free market solutions (Axiom 15) are superior to government solutions which are immoral (Axiom 5), reduce your choice (Axiom 7) and can actually make market matters worse (Axiom 10 and 14).

    Additional considerations could analyze the cost on the market to deal with antitrust laws and how companies unnecessarily distort themselves to adhere to the laws.
    This.

    Simply put, the supposed benefit gained is at the cost of the many. Any appreciable 'order' or 'fairness' gained is subtracted, one, from the relative freedom we all enjoy (as governments who are authorized by the people to infringe on rights to do 'A', 'B', or 'C', will necessarily do 'A', 'B', 'C', and 'D'), and two, it is subtracted by what they take in the first damn place!

    So someone might temporarily try to fix the price in a given sector (absent government declaration and protection) by a few cents on a thousand different products (as incredible as that sounds). Well naturally the solution is to take a few dollars (probably a lot closer to ten or twenty dollars) from every one.

    It's good that people notice a problem in whatever degree they do but trying to fix the problem by preemptively creating the problem is not the answer. Clearly it cannot be.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
    Who else in public life has called for a pre-emptive strike on North Korea?--Donald Trump

  4. #93
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Maybe. More likely, you don't exactly understand what I'm talking about. As you put it:



    My unsolicited advice: If you are going to try to use technological arguments to justify your politisophical prejudices, you should try to actually understand the technology. That is all.

    Let me one more time explain,... no, let me sum up:

    Mr. Tansill point, one and only: These jerks only exist at all and rake in the dough because of eminent domain. Because of that, the gov't goons should make (very reasonable, moderate, helpful, and pro-public, of course) regulations kindly guiding the jerks by the hand and preventing them from being quite so jerky. Is that a fair summary?

    Helmuth's line of defense number one: Core assertion is false. Electrical, and what you apparently really want to talk about: internet, services have been provided in the past with no eminent domain. None! Internet is even today widely provided with no eminent domain involved. None! No eminent domain! Eminent domain is not a necessary prerequisite for the existence of these industries. Period. The single leg your argument was standing on is thus cut off.

    Helmuth's line of defense number two: Let's temporarily rivet your leg back on, though, just for fun. If eminent domain were necessary for these industries, it in no way follows that because of that the industries would need to be run on a closed, barred-and-gated monopoly model. It absolutely does not follow. The two statements are unconnected. "Because eminent domain, therefore gov't-regulated monopoly" is not a logical statement.

    Let's have free entry. Let's have free competition. And let's have freedom! Do we disagree about that, Mr. T?
    No, we don't disagree about freedom. Your assertion that the internet is not enabled by eminent domain is just that: an assertion of the opposing claim, and doesn't actually address the argument, or prove anything different. At best, it represents the fact that one of us is incorrect about the truth of that statement.

    How exactly do you propose we have free competition? Should X ISP be forced to allow bits from a website that doesn't pay a fee to travel along their pipes? Not if that company accesses others' private property to deliver their service. But they don't, and that's our disagreement. I say that the internet is enabled by eminent domain (or has been previously) - you say it hasn't. That's the core difference here. Now, I ask this: Would a local government allow an individual to cut cables traveling on or over an individual's property who decided they no longer wanted them there? No they wouldn't. If you think they would, then so be it - I guess in that universe eminent domain is not required - though I think folks' internet connection will be pretty slow...

    To your second point - again, we just purely disagree, because I think we both understand the terms we are talking about, though I am going to clarify my point to be sure: I don't think that a government monopoly necessarily follows from eminent domain. What necessarily follows is government regulation of that corporation (or corporations) that benefited from those laws. Now, if that's what you think, then I am in complete polar disagreement - allowing a corporation the benefit of the strong arm of the government to establish access to a market (or provide a service, or whatever) without "attaching strings" is allowing corporations the power of the government without the accountability.

    I'm all for free competition, but I'm not sure what that looks like with the way the infrastructure of the internet is set up.

    Another way to view the situation is this:

    1. ISPs advertise a certain speed at which their internet will work (i.e. 5 MB/s, 10 MB/s, etc.).
    2. ISPs terms do not include caveats that those speeds only work on a subset of the internet.
    3. When ISPs begin to throttle access based on content, they are violating the terms of the contract they have established with their customers.

    This situation, IMO, requires government intervention to ensure compliance with contractual obligations.
    Last edited by Mr Tansill; 03-05-2015 at 05:41 PM.
    Reflect the Light!

  5. #94
    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    The comparison to delivery of more packages to delivery of lots of data being profitable is comparing oranges to rotten apples.

    Building larger pipelines to push greater amounts of data doesn't increase profit (but eats it) without raising rates. But, delivering more packages does increase the profits of UPS and other carriers.
    Clyde, thanks for watching that video - I think you're incorrect though. I've seen this argument before regarding "amounts" of data vs. "rate" of data, as if there was a difference, so I'm glad to actually have a chance to address it.

    1. Companies provide internet connections based on the "rate" of a connection - like 5 MB/s, 10 MB/s, etc. Here are a couple of examples for reference: http://www.comcast.com/internet-service.html and http://www.verizon.com/home/highspeedinternet/.

    2. There are a fixed number of seconds in an hour, day, and month (varies...). This happens to be 60 * 60 * 24 * ~30 = ~ 2.6 million seconds/month.
    2a) 5 MB/s connection is equivalent to ~13 TB/month.
    2b) 25 MB/s connection is equivalent to ~ 65 TB/month.
    2c) 28.8 KB/s connection is equivalent to ~ 75 GB/month.

    3. Accessing a larger amount of data per month is indistinguishable from having a faster connection speed. The only reason companies advertise using their current "terminology" is because people understand what you can do with a 25 MB/s connection vs a 28.8 kbps connection. They could just as easily offer the "caps" above, and there would be no difference.
    Reflect the Light!

  6. #95
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Tansill View Post
    No, we don't disagree about freedom.

    I don't think that a government monopoly necessarily follows from eminent domain. What necessarily follows is government regulation of that corporation (or corporations) that benefited from those laws.

    I'm all for free competition, but I'm not sure what that looks like with the way the infrastructure of the internet is set up.
    So it sounds like we could both agree to a plan that would do two things:

    1. Eliminate eminent domain, and
    2. Declare a free market with free entry and free competition.

    Is that correct?

  7. #96
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    So it sounds like we could both agree to a plan that would do two things:

    1. Eliminate eminent domain, and
    2. Declare a free market with free entry and free competition.

    Is that correct?
    100% correct.
    Reflect the Light!



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  9. #97
    Quote Originally Posted by Mr Tansill View Post
    100% correct.
    Well, let's toast to that, then!

    I do definitely see your point that "with great power comes great responsibility," as applied here: "with large gov't-granted crony privileges come large reels of red tape." You live by the sword, you die by the sword. You take the gov't goodies, don't be too surprised there's strings attached.

    There are many ISPs, however, that do not use eminent domain directly, that build their networks on already-existing copper and fiber. They work with telcos, or other players from whom one buys bandwidth like Level3, do peering and aggregation and... well, all kinds of technical and complicated things. But no filing of eminent domain requests.

    There are also whole important distribution methods of the internet that have no eminent domain whatsoever, notably the cell phone towers that stream you your internet with no trenches, no easements, no eminent domain. Just waves in the air.

  10. #98
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    All of the micro economic models and their attendant calculations I was taught do very much indeed take innovation into account, which is expressed as part of the cost function.



    I don't think the derivative of 1-Q**2 = 1-2Q. Rather, it is simply 2Q. Constants have no derivative. That is why when you are integrating f(x) over some interval, the result includes a constant, usu. denoted 'C', which is more or less the y-offset of the function.



    But they always do "bad" things, if they are not regulated otherwise. But the regulation also is a bad thing. Therefore, for my money monopolies are generally deleterious to the economy. I do not advocate banning by force, but do object to state-granted privilege of monopoly.



    The deadweight losses to the consumer cannot be avoided without regulation when we are talking of a monopoly operating in its rational self-interest. In this respect, the only thing innovation does is reduce the value of the cost function. But cost remains and the rationally operated monopoly will still operate as a detriment to consumers. The monopoly, if rational, is not going to operate as if there was competition. If they do behave, then they are not rational. It is a simple matter of definitions.




    I thought it was fairly clear. Proper accountability for one's actions v. the nonsense that is enforced by "law" would result in a happier, saner world. We now employ force against people for non-criminal acts. Guy buys a hooker and ends up in jail. Lady lights a joint, jail. Fail to pay taxes - jail. And so forth.



    One either has free markets or has something else. If costs are such a hazard, then perhaps there is no actual and free market for the product or service in question. If there is a real market, customers will accept the costs. It is as simple as that. BTW, the BI case, as well as others such as Socony and Applalachian coal, are absolute cluster copulations WRT price fixing, with all manner of nonsense about the rules not applying literally.



    No. Anti-trust laws are superfluous - redundant, and in the case of real US antitrust, not to be... erm... trusted.

    If that is the case then I might agree especially with Price fixing issues. This is something that may not be evident at all to the consumer without these laws.





    Your point is well taken, but I would maintain that tort is the answer. That tort may place a burden upon juries... well, tough poo. But I certainly get your point and understand that such a situation could lead to all manner of miscarriages of just equity verdicts and rulings. But the question then arises: would specific and presumably competent anti-trust law fix this potential problem? It just appears to me that in this case anti-trust law would constitute a very narrow and deep branch of tort law, put in place because of the great technical difficulties such cases may at times present.

    The better solution, in my eyes, is to remove all restrictions on monopolies and oligopolies. Let them collude all they want, but under certain conditions. Firstly they cannot conspire to bar competition. Secondly, there would be no more state-endowed privileges of monopoly. Power companies and the sort would be stuck with "perfect" competition. If you can maintain your monopoly, then goody for you. But if you cannot, do not look to government to pull your bacon from the fire. With this, all rights of way become public domain and must be shared.... utility and phone poles, for example. That could get messy, but if the problems become bad enough, let the players innovate their ways out of them. That is the right way to do things. The current way is lazy or it is the result of wanting something for nothing - like guaranteed market.





    We have all the mechanisms we need - we just need to use them properly. If I design the Ford Pinto and market it knowing that in certain types of impacts the gas tank will explode and the passengers turned to crispy critters, I am CRIMINALLY liable for such death and injury. The excuse Ford officials made about the $11 additional cost for putting in a proper tank should cut no mustard and, in fact, should serve as proof of criminality. Those responsible should see prison time and the company required to pay for what they have done.

    If indeed the cost increase would have eaten heavily into the market for the Pinto, then perhaps Ford would have been well served to re-examine that market and possibly decide that it simply did not pay to go there.

    Most of these issues really do boil down to simple answers. What complicates things most are the conflicting interests. Ford wanted the extra market share and were willing to see a certain number of their customers burn to death or be horribly maimed by their failed products in order to get it. I would call that malice aforethought. They knew, they did anyway... what part of that is not felonious and deserving of a life sentence?

    Had they not known and could not have reasonably become aware, they would then only be liable for the tort in $-terms. Had they now known and should have known as per the reasonable man standard, perhaps a lighter criminal sentence would be in order.

    The point is that the mechanisms are there. Congress and other legislatures are far too fond of complicating things with endless pages of redundant, conflicting, and outright stupid statutory enactments.
    If you don't know how to take a partial derivative then I have no idea what else I can say.

    Slutter McGee

  11. #99
    Quote Originally Posted by Slutter McGee View Post
    If you don't know how to take a partial derivative then I have no idea what else I can say.

    Slutter McGee
    Nowhere in your post did you specify a partial derivative. However, given they relate to multivariate functions, does the idea even have meaning in the world of single-variables? I don't see it, but that means nothing. That was a single-variable function, was it not?
    freedomisobvious.blogspot.com

    There is only one correct way: freedom. All other solutions are non-solutions.

    It appears that artificial intelligence is at least slightly superior to natural stupidity.

    Our words make us the ghosts that we are.

    Convincing the world he didn't exist was the Devil's second greatest trick; the first was convincing us that God didn't exist.

  12. #100
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    Nowhere in your post did you specify a partial derivative. However, given they relate to multivariate functions, does the idea even have meaning in the world of single-variables? I don't see it, but that means nothing. That was a single-variable function, was it not?
    MR=MC. learn to calculate MR. It is not difficult. Twice the slope for a monopoly or you can take the partial derivative of the total revenue. I am done. Done seeing how posting relatively simple math in this thread is going to help no one.

    Good Luck Yall,

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