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Thread: ZERO U.S. Measles Deaths in 10 Years, but Over 100 Measles Vaccine Deaths Reported

  1. #1

    ZERO U.S. Measles Deaths in 10 Years, but Over 100 Measles Vaccine Deaths Reported

    http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/zer...aths-reported/

    ZERO U.S. Measles Deaths in 10 Years, but Over 100 Measles Vaccine Deaths Reported





    Brian Shilhavy
    Health Impact News Editor

    With the measles and measles vaccine debate reaching a near frenzy on the Internet, it is always nice to throw some cold hard facts on the firestorm currently raging in the measles debate.
    So here are some easily verifiable facts regarding deaths due to measles in the United States for the past 10 years, and deaths due to measles vaccines during the same 10 year period.
    First, the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) keeps a weekly tally of disease outbreaks, including deaths. According to a statement made by Dr. Anne Schuchat, the director of CDC’s National Center for Immunization and Respiratory Diseases, in an Associated Press story picked up by Fox News on April 25, 2014:
    There have been no measles deaths reported in the U.S. since 2003
    The weekly CDC Morbidity and Mortality Weekly Reports (MMWR) since that date have not revealed any measles deaths either.
    And while health authorities are blaming measles outbreaks in recent years on unvaccinated children, when you mention the fact that nobody is dying from measles in the U.S., they are quick to turn around and claim vaccines have eliminated measles deaths (even though they cannot eliminate the disease itself apparently.)
    Besides the obvious contradiction in reasoning with such a claim, the historical evidence just does not support it either:
    Image from healthsentinel.com – Click image to enlarge.

    Death by Measles Vaccines

    What about deaths due to the measles vaccine during the same time period?
    The U.S. Government keeps a database of reports called The Vaccine Adverse Event Reporting System (VAERS). The database is available to the public, and there is a search portal the public can use at Medalerts.org.
    We ran a search for a ten year period for deaths due to all measles vaccines, including a few that are no longer in production. The search result contained 108 deaths over this period, resulting from four different measles vaccines sold in the United States during the past 10 years.


    Today, one can only purchase a measles vaccine in combination with the mumps and rubella vaccines (MMR Vaccine).
    When searching for just the MMR vaccine during the past 10 years, 96 deaths were reported:


    Anybody with a computer and Internet access can search this database by visiting MedAlerts.org.
    This database reflects only deaths that were reported during the time frame, and therefore probably reflects a much lower number than actual deaths, since most doctors and health authorities believe vaccines are safe, and would not normally attribute a death to a vaccine and actually report it.
    The U.S. Government Settlements on Measles Vaccine Injuries

    The other place to find facts regarding injuries and deaths due to the measles vaccine is to look at U.S. Government settlements for MMR vaccine injuries and deaths. The U.S. public is largely unaware that manufacturers of vaccines have been given legal immunity from being prosecuted in civil court for vaccine injuries and deaths, since 1986. If someone is injured or killed by a vaccine, they have to sue the U.S. Government in a special “vaccine court.”
    The Department of Justice issues quarterly reports on claims and settlements, and one can search for specific vaccines settlements at the United States Federal Courts website.
    As search here for “measles” returns a result of 111 claims settled for the MMR vaccine since 2004. Some of them are for settlements due to deaths related to the MMR vaccine, as determined by the judge.

    We did not click on and read each decision to find out how many resulted in deaths, but if we get a few reports from others who are willing to do so, and the numbers match, we will update this story with the actual death figure.
    It takes many years to win a case in this vaccine court, so this probably represents only a tiny fraction of actual injuries and deaths due to the MMR vaccine.
    Conclusion: Measles Vaccine Enthusiasm based Largely on Fear and Beliefs

    We fully realize that those who believe in the value of vaccines will probably not be persuaded by these facts, which anyone with a computer and Internet access can verify from U.S. Government sources.
    Having now published a few stories on the measles issue, and having received many hundreds of comments, it has become very clear to us that those who have strong opinions on the measles vaccine are based more on fear and beliefs, than they are on facts or science. Any attempt by these vaccine proponents to force their beliefs on the rest of the U.S. public should be vigorously opposed.
    Read the Full Article and Comment at VaccineImpact.com.
    See Also:
    The Truth About Measles the Mainstream Media is Suppressing

    Arizona Cardiologist Responds to Critics Regarding Measles and Vaccines

    UCLA Medical Center Pediatrician: Let Parents Choose on Measles Vaccine





    - See more at: http://healthimpactnews.com/2015/zer....g8SNFtP4.dpuf
    We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false. -- William Casey, CIA Director

    Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.-- Mark Twain

    When people like us-- the scum of society-- don't risk our lives when a rare chance comes our way, we become losers at that moment. So courage is the only thing we can rely on.-- Anchan
    Rick Simpson Hemp Oil



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  3. #2
    Wow, thanks for those statistics. Very compelling with all of the supporting evidence. A nice big +rep for your work in compiling this.
    I'm an adventurer, writer and bitcoin market analyst.

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  4. #3
    The Disneyland measles outbreak came from overseas and is likely spreading almost exclusively among the unregulated immigrant population. Despite all the hysteria, there does not appear to be any connection between this outbreak and any sort of philosophical/scientific/religious/medical objection to vaccination.

  5. #4
    Excellent information.

    In b4 Zippy.
    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  6. #5
    Read the "pre-existing conditions" in the first example.

    Pulmonary Atresia: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001091.htm

    Pulmonary atresia
    Pulmonary atresia is a form of heart disease that occurs from birth (congenital heart disease), in which the pulmonary valve does not form properly. The pulmonary valve is an opening on the right side of the heart that regulates blood flow from the right ventricle (right side pumping chamber) to the lungs.

    In pulmonary atresia, a solid sheet of tissue forms where the valve opening should be, and the valve stays closed. Because of this defect, blood from the right side of the heart cannot go to the lungs to pick up oxygen.
    Cardiac heterotaxia: http://www.uptodate.com/contents/ana...ial-appendages
    Heterotaxy, also referred to as isomerism of the atrial appendages, is defined as an abnormal assembly of the thoracic and abdominal organs from the normal arrangement known as "situs solitus." It is caused by disruption of left-right axis orientation during early embryonic development. Cardiac malformations are a major component of heterotaxy syndrome, resulting in significant morbidity and mortality.
    Patient died the same day as the vaccine. Temperature was 103 degrees just a couple of hours after being vaccinated. You can't develop pneumonia or meningitis in under three hours.

    Write-up: According to family, 3 hours after immunizations given, patient had vomiting and temperature of 103. Arrived in ER 2/26/04 at 21:15; temp was 106 rectally. C/C to ER; was crying, fever, vomiting. Died 2/26/04 at 23:58. The hospital discharge summary received on 3/23/04 states meningococcaemia/ sepsis and congenital heart dx. Nurse follow up on 09/21/04 states: "septic shock, adrenal hemorrhage."
    Cause of death: meningitis and congenital heart disease.

    This was unfortunately a very sick child- which makes one wonder why he was given a vaccine at that time. Actually he was given three vaccinations- but NOT the MMR vaccine (dose is listed as zero for that one). He was given DTAPHEPBIP, HIBV, and PNC vaccines according to the case report.

    VAERS reports list events which follow a vaccination. The vaccine does not need to have caused the event neither does any cause and effect need to be shown for it to be reported. Anybody can file a report- doctors, nurses, individuals like you and me.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-03-2015 at 03:29 AM.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    VAERS reports list events which follow a vaccination. The vaccine does not need to have caused the event neither does any cause and effect need to be shown for it to be reported. Anybody can file a report- doctors, nurses, individuals like you and me.
    I truly love that, anytime somebody references the VAERS the instant response of your type is to discount it as a meaningless system that if ever substantiated would establish the likes of Wikipedia as the gold standard of reference materials.

    ETA:

    VAERS was created out of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) of 1986, so you wholehearted believe the government's henchmen, but not what others are reporting back to them. Hypocrite.

    VAERS has demonstrated its public health importance by providing health scientists with signals about possible adverse events following immunization. In one instance, VAERS detected reports for intussusception over that what would be expected to occur by chance alone after the RotaShield rotavirus vaccine in 1999. Epidemiologic studies confirmed an increased risk, and these data contributed to the product's removal from the US market. In another example, VAERS determined that there may be a potential for a small increase in risk for Guillain-Barre' syndrome (GBS) after the meningococcal conjugate vaccine, Menactra. As a result of this finding, a history of GBS became a contraindication to the vaccine and further controlled studies are currently underway to research this issue. . . . By monitoring such events, VAERS helps to identify any important new safety concerns and thereby assists in ensuring that the benefits of vaccines continue to be far greater than the risks.

    Many different types of adverse events occur after vaccination. About 85-90% of the reports describe mild adverse events such as fever, local reactions, and episodes of crying or mild irritability. The remaining reports reflect serious adverse events involving life-threatening conditions, hospitalization, permanent disability, or death, which may or may not have been caused by a vaccine.
    https://vaers.hhs.gov/about/index
    Last edited by Weston White; 02-03-2015 at 07:30 AM.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius


    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber

  8. #7
    Nice post! The 108 deaths doesn't even begin to address the potential
    long-term effects of injecting toxins into the child's bloodstream. Research
    has already shown adverse neurological effects from one of the toxins
    in some infants, but some want to try and force toxic injections
    without long-term human studies.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    I truly love that, anytime somebody references the VAERS the instant response of your type is to discount it as a meaningless system that if ever substantiated would establish the likes of Wikipedia as the gold standard of reference materials.

    ETA:

    VAERS was created out of the National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act (NCVIA) of 1986, so you wholehearted believe the government's henchmen, but not what others are reporting back to them. Hypocrite.



    https://vaers.hhs.gov/about/index
    Note the last paragraph you posted.

    Many different types of adverse events occur after vaccination. About 85-90% of the reports describe mild adverse events such as fever, local reactions, and episodes of crying or mild irritability. The remaining reports reflect serious adverse events involving life-threatening conditions, hospitalization, permanent disability, or death, which may or may not have been caused by a vaccine.
    Under FAQs: https://vaers.hhs.gov/about/faqs

    Are all adverse events reported to VAERS caused by vaccines?

    No. VAERS receives reports of many adverse events that occur after vaccination. Some occur coincidentally following vaccination, while others may be caused by vaccination. Studies help determine if a vaccine really caused an adverse event. Just because an adverse event happened after a person received a vaccine does not mean the vaccine caused the adverse event. Other factors, such as the person's medical history and other medicines the person took near the time of the vaccination, may have caused the adverse event. It is important to remember that many adverse events reported to VAERS may not be caused by vaccines. Although VAERS can rarely provide definitive evidence of causal associations between vaccines and particular risks, its unique role as a national spontaneous reporting system enables the early detection of signals that can then be more rigorously investigated.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-03-2015 at 12:37 PM.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by thoughtomator View Post
    The Disneyland measles outbreak came from overseas and is likely spreading almost exclusively among the unregulated immigrant population. Despite all the hysteria, there does not appear to be any connection between this outbreak and any sort of philosophical/scientific/religious/medical objection to vaccination.
    Big Pharma 'overcharging' poor countries for child vaccines - report

  12. #10
    http://news.sciencemag.org/health/20...ampaign=buffer

    That’s why a fully vaccinated 22-year-old theater employee in New York City who developed the measles in 2011 was released without hospitalization or quarantine. But like Typhoid Mary, this patient turned out to be unwittingly contagious. Ultimately, she transmitted the measles to four other people, according to a recent report in Clinical Infectious Diseases that tracked symptoms in the 88 people with whom “Measles Mary” interacted while she was sick. Surprisingly, two of the secondary patients had been fully vaccinated. And although the other two had no record of receiving the vaccine, they both showed signs of previous measles exposure that should have conferred immunity.
    Also goes along well with the more recent whistleblower news:
    http://www.huffingtonpost.ca/lawrenc...b_5881914.html
    According to the whistleblowers' court documents, Merck's misconduct was far-ranging: It "failed to disclose that its mumps vaccine was not as effective as Merck represented, (ii) used improper testing techniques, (iii) manipulated testing methodology, (iv) abandoned undesirable test results, (v) falsified test data, (vi) failed to adequately investigate and report the diminished efficacy of its mumps vaccine, (vii) falsely verified that each manufacturing lot of mumps vaccine would be as effective as identified in the labeling, (viii) falsely certified the accuracy of applications filed with the FDA, (ix) falsely certified compliance with the terms of the CDC purchase contract, (x) engaged in the fraud and concealment describe herein for the purpose of illegally monopolizing the U.S. market for mumps vaccine, (xi) mislabeled, misbranded, and falsely certified its mumps vaccine, and (xii) engaged in the other acts described herein to conceal the diminished efficacy of the vaccine the government was purchasing."
    See also:
    http://www.morganverkamp.com/august-...ne-and-autism/


    Yet these are the "scientists" we should trust.
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

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  13. #11
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Patient died the same day as the vaccine. Temperature was 103 degrees just a couple of hours after being vaccinated. You can't develop pneumonia or meningitis in under three hours.

    Cause of death: meningitis and congenital heart disease.
    Where did you get that you can't develop meningitis in under three hours? "Typically", it's 3-7 days, but in infants it could be much quicker. And death, within 24 hours of getting infected with it.

    "The symptoms of bacterial meningitis can appear quickly or over several days. Typically they develop within 3-7 days after exposure.

    Babies younger than 1 month old are at a higher risk for severe infections, like meningitis, than older children. In newborns and infants, the classic meningitis symptoms of fever, headache, and neck stiffness may be absent or difficult to notice. The infant may appear to be slow or inactive (lack of alertness), irritable, vomiting or feeding poorly. In young infants, doctors may look for a bulging fontanelle (soft spot on infant’s head) or abnormal reflexes, which can also be signs of meningitis. If you think your infant has any of these symptoms, call the doctor or clinic right away."

    http://www.cdc.gov/meningitis/bacterial.html

    "Bacterial meningitis is a rare, but extremely serious, potentially fatal disease. It can progress very rapidly, sometimes causing death less than 24 hours after symptoms first begin." (Added the bold myself to highlight the death in less than 24 hours.)
    http://healthyhorns.utexas.edu/ht_meningitis.html

  14. #12
    Nothing in your post says somebody can develop meningitis in three hours from exposure (and we are assuming that the patient was exposed to the meningitis bacteria from a vaccine which is unheard of).

    From your CDC link:
    Transmission
    The germs that cause bacterial meningitis can be contagious. Some bacteria can spread through the exchange (e.g., by kissing) of respiratory and throat secretions (e.g., saliva or mucus). Fortunately, most of the bacteria that cause meningitis are not as contagious as viruses that cause the common cold or the flu. Also, the bacteria are not spread by casual contact or by simply breathing the air where a person with meningitis has been. Other meningitis-causing bacteria are not spread person-to-person, but can cause disease because the person has certain risk factors (such as a weak immune system or head trauma). Unlike other bacterial causes of meningitis, you can get Listeria monocytogenes by eating contaminated food.

    Sometimes the bacteria that cause meningitis spread to other people. This usually happens when there is close or long contact with a sick person in the same household or daycare center, or if they had direct contact with a patient's oral secretions (such as a boyfriend or girlfriend). People who qualify as close contacts of a person with meningococcal or Haemophilus influenzae type b (Hib) meningitis are at higher risk of getting disease and may need preventive antibiotics (see Prevention). Close contacts of a person with meningitis caused by other bacteria, such as Streptococcus pneumoniae, do not need antibiotics. Tell your doctor if you think you have been exposed to someone with meningitis.
    I don't have the links to treatments right now, but it sounds like the boy had been diagnosed with meningitis and was given the vaccines it was to try to fight it off- and they failled (the vaccines were for possible sources of infection- again noting that MMR was NOT one of the vaccines he was given). Normal onset of symptoms is several days after exposure.
    Last edited by Zippyjuan; 02-03-2015 at 05:37 PM.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Read the "pre-existing conditions" in the first example.

    Pulmonary Atresia: http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/e...cle/001091.htm



    Cardiac heterotaxia: http://www.uptodate.com/contents/ana...ial-appendages


    Patient died the same day as the vaccine. Temperature was 103 degrees just a couple of hours after being vaccinated. You can't develop pneumonia or meningitis in under three hours.



    Cause of death: meningitis and congenital heart disease.

    This was unfortunately a very sick child- which makes one wonder why he was given a vaccine at that time. Actually he was given three vaccinations- but NOT the MMR vaccine (dose is listed as zero for that one). He was given DTAPHEPBIP, HIBV, and PNC vaccines according to the case report.

    VAERS reports list events which follow a vaccination. The vaccine does not need to have caused the event neither does any cause and effect need to be shown for it to be reported. Anybody can file a report- doctors, nurses, individuals like you and me.
    Is this liek Eric Garner in New York who died of preexisting heart problems?
    We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false. -- William Casey, CIA Director

    Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.-- Mark Twain

    When people like us-- the scum of society-- don't risk our lives when a rare chance comes our way, we become losers at that moment. So courage is the only thing we can rely on.-- Anchan
    Rick Simpson Hemp Oil

  16. #14
    See, This is why I don't ever start new threads.

    +rep to squarepusher for actually getting replies. ROFL.
    There are no crimes against people.
    There are only crimes against the state.
    And the state will never, ever choose to hold accountable its agents, because a thing can not commit a crime against itself.

  17. #15
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

  18. #16
    To be fair, those are reported cases, correct? Not cases that have been proven to have been caused by the vaccine, right? I'm seriously asking, because I was having a discussion about this with someone.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by logikal View Post
    To be fair, those are reported cases, correct? Not cases that have been proven to have been caused by the vaccine, right? I'm seriously asking, because I was having a discussion about this with someone.
    Correct. Those people died after receiving a vaccine in much the same way that someone dies in a car accident after drinking Starbucks.
    "The one permanent emotion of the inferior man is fear - fear of the unknown, the complex, the inexplicable. What he wants above everything else is safety."
    H. L. Mencken

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by TheCount View Post
    Correct. Those people died after receiving a vaccine in much the same way that someone dies in a car accident after drinking Starbucks.
    like how Eric Garner died from preexisting heart condition, not from being chocked out by a cop.
    If a baby gets a vaccine, then has a stroke right after, wouldn't it be possible the vaccine casued that?

    Quote Originally Posted by fisharmor View Post
    See, This is why I don't ever start new threads.

    +rep to squarepusher for actually getting replies. ROFL.
    Its all about sensational headlines, and CAPS, and stuff!
    We'll know our disinformation program is complete when everything the American public believes is false. -- William Casey, CIA Director

    Get your facts first, then you can distort them as you please.-- Mark Twain

    When people like us-- the scum of society-- don't risk our lives when a rare chance comes our way, we become losers at that moment. So courage is the only thing we can rely on.-- Anchan
    Rick Simpson Hemp Oil

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by squarepusher View Post
    If a baby gets a vaccine, then has a stroke right after, wouldn't it be possible the vaccine casued that?
    This is why I'm somewhere in the middle in the whole debate. I think certain reactions to the vaccines are not very common (or we would see a lot more cases than we do), but I also don't like when I see concerned parents being ridiculed for being "anti-science." It actually seems rather scientific to me, to look to that event as a possible cause if nothing else happened during that time, especially when it isn't so easy to prove either way. If it were easy, in all those reported cases, doctors would have been able to point to exactly what DID cause it.

    On the Merck website, I found this (from the MMR package insert):

    "Experience...indicates that significant central nervous system reactions such as encephalitis and encephalopathy, occurring within 30 days after vaccination, have been temporally associated with measles vaccine very rarely. In no case has it been shown that reactions were actually caused by vaccine...However, the data suggest the possibility that some of these cases may have been caused by measles vaccines."

    In other words, they are admitting that although not PROVED, it is POSSIBLE. And again, I completely understand that those cases may be rare which is why I don't consider myself anti-vaccine, but I also don't like to see people hiding behind science, when science itself doesn't always have all the answers. It is OK to be suspicious.

  23. #20
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Nothing in your post says somebody can develop meningitis in three hours from exposure (and we are assuming that the patient was exposed to the meningitis bacteria from a vaccine which is unheard of).

    From your CDC link:

    I don't have the links to treatments right now, but it sounds like the boy had been diagnosed with meningitis and was given the vaccines it was to try to fight it off- and they failled (the vaccines were for possible sources of infection- again noting that MMR was NOT one of the vaccines he was given). Normal onset of symptoms is several days after exposure.
    Nothing in my post/links says a baby can't develop meningitis in under 3 hours either, but that death can occur within 24 hours of initial symptoms. Did you ever find the links that said the boy had been diagnosed with meningitis, and was given the vaccines to fight it off?

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by logikal View Post
    To be fair, those are reported cases, correct? Not cases that have been proven to have been caused by the vaccine, right? I'm seriously asking, because I was having a discussion about this with someone.
    Not a single one of those cases has been verified. That's not how it works. But the anti-vaxxers are'nt big on facts, even though they do love them some Facebook memes. Especially when there's a chart.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by logikal View Post
    This is why I'm somewhere in the middle in the whole debate. I think certain reactions to the vaccines are not very common (or we would see a lot more cases than we do), but I also don't like when I see concerned parents being ridiculed for being "anti-science." It actually seems rather scientific to me, to look to that event as a possible cause if nothing else happened during that time, especially when it isn't so easy to prove either way. If it were easy, in all those reported cases, doctors would have been able to point to exactly what DID cause it.

    On the Merck website, I found this (from the MMR package insert):

    "Experience...indicates that significant central nervous system reactions such as encephalitis and encephalopathy, occurring within 30 days after vaccination, have been temporally associated with measles vaccine very rarely. In no case has it been shown that reactions were actually caused by vaccine...However, the data suggest the possibility that some of these cases may have been caused by measles vaccines."

    In other words, they are admitting that although not PROVED, it is POSSIBLE. And again, I completely understand that those cases may be rare which is why I don't consider myself anti-vaccine, but I also don't like to see people hiding behind science, when science itself doesn't always have all the answers. It is OK to be suspicious.
    That's actually sort of how science works. Nothing is every proved beyond a shadow of a doubt. It's the anti-vaxxers that are rigid. Science encourages challenges.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Not a single one of those cases has been verified. That's not how it works. But the anti-vaxxers are'nt big on facts, even though they do love them some Facebook memes. Especially when there's a chart.
    Well, that's not very nice. You post a lot of memes and charts too, you know.

    What is the difference between your charts and those of the pro-information folks?

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by squarepusher View Post
    like how Eric Garner died from preexisting heart condition, not from being chocked out by a cop.
    If a baby gets a vaccine, then has a stroke right after, wouldn't it be possible the vaccine casued that?
    Of course it is possible. But correlation isn't causation.



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  29. #25

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Well, that's not very nice. You post a lot of memes and charts too, you know.

    What is the difference between your charts and those of the pro-information folks?
    Nobody mistakes me for nice.

    Mine are backed up by facts. VAERS isn't a controlled clinical study. Anybody can add a report to it. For all we know, some rabid anti-vaxxer adds measles deaths to it on a regular basis.
    Last edited by angelatc; 02-11-2015 at 08:43 PM.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    Here is something for Zippy and Angela
    Before I get started, what would it take to convince you she is wrong? What evidence would you accept? And which statement of hers do you find especially sound? What evidence does she provide to support her position?
    Last edited by angelatc; 02-11-2015 at 08:46 PM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by Working Poor View Post
    Here is something for Zippy and Angela
    Great video! Definitely worth the hour to watch.
    "No one is useless in this world who lightens the burdens of another.” ~ Charles Dickens

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by angelatc View Post
    Before I get started, what would it take to convince you she is wrong? What evidence would you accept? And which statement of hers do you find especially sound? What evidence does she provide to support her position?
    Her information about how authorities work to persuade people to vaccinate.

    Convince me that she is wrong.

  34. #30
    Some people in this world will never have any common sense. You can hit them in the head with a hammer. They'll wake up the next day with a headache and still question whether the hammer had anything to do with it.

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