Submission

[Southron]

I have read a lot of discussion here on what a legitimate governing authority is but not much on submission.

What does biblical submission look like in the life of a Christian? Not just to civil government but any aspect of life. Is submission optional in these areas?

[Sola_Fide]

I have read a lot of discussion here on what a legitimate governing authority is but not much on submission.

What does biblical submission look like in the life of a Christian? Not just to civil government but any aspect of life. Is submission optional in these areas?

It's an interesting study to get in to. Because we are to submit ourselves to unjust authorities sometimes, for the sake of the Gospel, whether we are slaves of people or slaves of government.

[Danke]

My ex ( who was Catholic) started out submissive...

[jmdrake]

I have read a lot of discussion here on what a legitimate governing authority is but not much on submission.

What does biblical submission look like in the life of a Christian? Not just to civil government but any aspect of life. Is submission optional in these areas?

Matthew 7:12 Therefore all things whatsoever ye would that men should do to you, do ye even so to them: for this is the law and the prophets.

Matthew 5:44 But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

[jllundqu]

This is the only type of submission I acknowledge:

[moostraks]

Then there is Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[a] of His flesh and of His bones.

This involves a mutual relationship of respect and care for the needs of ones spouse...

[Sola_Fide]

Then there is Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[a] of His flesh and of His bones.

This involves a mutual relationship of respect and care for the needs of ones spouse...

There is also a reference to limited atonement in that verse. Jesus atoned for the sins of His people only.

[Southron]

Then there is Ephesians 5:22 Wives, submit to your own husbands, as to the Lord. 23 For the husband is head of the wife, as also Christ is head of the church; and He is the Savior of the body. 24 Therefore, just as the church is subject to Christ, so let the wives be to their own husbands in everything.

25 Husbands, love your wives, just as Christ also loved the church and gave Himself for her, 26 that He might sanctify and cleanse her with the washing of water by the word, 27 that He might present her to Himself a glorious church, not having spot or wrinkle or any such thing, but that she should be holy and without blemish. 28 So husbands ought to love their own wives as their own bodies; he who loves his wife loves himself. 29 For no one ever hated his own flesh, but nourishes and cherishes it, just as the Lord does the church. 30 For we are members of His body,[a] of His flesh and of His bones.

This involves a mutual relationship of respect and care for the needs of ones spouse...

What about in the many cases where the spouse isnt worthy of respect?

[euphemia]

What about in the many cases where the spouse isnt worthy of respect?

It's not your call. You don't get to pick your obedience because of someone else's behavior. Submission is not an emotion. It is behavior. Treat the spouse with respect.

[HVACTech]

What about in the many cases where the spouse isnt worthy of respect?

Aretha knows..

[moostraks]

It's not your call. You don't get to pick your obedience because of someone else's behavior. Submission is not an emotion. It is behavior. Treat the spouse with respect.

Hmm, bad advice for a battered spouse. Their is no measure of submitting to an unruly husband in some circumstances. That is why folks need to pick their spouses carefully and not be unequally yoked.

[moostraks]

What about in the many cases where the spouse isnt worthy of respect?

Imo it depends on the circumstances. Some battered spouse situations require the spouse to realize when it is detrimental to themselves, most especially when there is physical danger. Then withdrawal of consent to be battered is the most loving option to both the batterer and the batteree. It does not benefit the violent narcissist to have its ego stroked by someone who feeds their disease. They will end up using up the current victim and move on to another person...

[euphemia]

Hmm, bad advice for a battered spouse. Their is no measure of submitting to an unruly husband in some circumstances. That is why folks need to pick their spouses carefully and not be unequally yoked.

A battered spouse still needs to behave respectfully. She doesn't get to be a shrew because her husband is a jerk. She submits to God first of all to develop godly character. A battered spouse needs to get out and create a network of support to get healthy and on her own in a safe place.

[RJB]

A battered spouse needs to get out and create a network of support to get healthy and on her own in a safe place.

...and most likely get a firearm.

[georgiaboy]

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is a model of submission.

Philippians 2 -
1 Therefore if you have any encouragement from being united with Christ, if any comfort from his love, if any common sharing in the Spirit, if any tenderness and compassion,
2 then make my joy complete by being like-minded, having the same love, being one in spirit and of one mind.
3 Do nothing out of selfish ambition or vain conceit. Rather, in humility value others above yourselves,
4 not looking to your own interests but each of you to the interests of the others.

5 In your relationships with one another, have the same mindset as Christ Jesus:

6 Who, being in very nature[a] God,
did not consider equality with God something to be used to his own advantage;
7 rather, he made himself nothing by taking the very nature[b] of a servant,
being made in human likeness.
8 And being found in appearance as a man,
he humbled himself by becoming obedient to death—
even death on a cross!
9 Therefore God exalted him to the highest place
and gave him the name that is above every name,
10 that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

[euphemia]

...and most likely get a firearm.

I know women who have done that.

[Christian Liberty]

It's an interesting study to get in to. Because we are to submit ourselves to unjust authorities sometimes, for the sake of the Gospel, whether we are slaves of people or slaves of government.

Hmm, bad advice for a battered spouse. Their is no measure of submitting to an unruly husband in some circumstances. That is why folks need to pick their spouses carefully and not be unequally yoked.

This is the problem with the way most Christians interpret Romans 13 as well. There are limited spheres to just authority, and obedience isn't inherently required when authorities go outside those spheres.

[euphemia]

The thing about *unjust authorities* is that a Christian point of view is not based on a privately held opinion. Faith and faith traditions inform thinking. In the United States we have a Consitution that self-defines as the basis for all law. I think there are ways to oppose the injustice we experience in present government without violating a Christian standard of conduct. I think the Consitution gives citizens redress. Congress clearly does not listen, but that does not mean Christians cannot use the means at their disposal to oppose injustice.

[moostraks]

A battered spouse still needs to behave respectfully. She doesn't get to be a shrew because her husband is a jerk. She submits to God first of all to develop godly character. A battered spouse needs to get out and create a network of support to get healthy and on her own in a safe place.

You were saying submission. You cannot submit to God and remain in the household in some circumstances. This is what I was responding to in the other post to clarify for those who might find themselves in dangerous circumstances. There are some churches that will command a spouse to stay in the household and that imo is wrong.

[euphemia]

Yes, I'm familiar with some of those churches and leaders.

I have never been in a dangerous marital situation, but I have been part of the network to help women escape abusive husbands/boyfriends.

[Christian Liberty]

The thing about *unjust authorities* is that a Christian point of view is not based on a privately held opinion. Faith and faith traditions inform thinking. In the United States we have a Consitution that self-defines as the basis for all law. I think there are ways to oppose the injustice we experience in present government without violating a Christian standard of conduct. I think the Consitution gives citizens redress. Congress clearly does not listen, but that does not mean Christians cannot use the means at their disposal to oppose injustice.

I agree and I wasn't necessarily advocating a particular strategy for the moment. I'm just saying I don't believe the Bible demands ABSOLUTE subjection to any authority but God and that those who say it does are missing part of it.

[moostraks]

Yes, I'm familiar with some of those churches and leaders.

I have never been in a dangerous marital situation, but I have been part of the network to help women escape abusive husbands/boyfriends.

Oh, I was previously and the church said stay and submit to the point of death. Every time you get beat it was because you weren't submitting properly. Now, at one point the minister pulled me to the side, against the wishes of the deacons, and gave me $100 to run away with as he saw the desperate nature of the situation. It was 2 years of hiding that bill and I eventually left on it.

Now if the woman is being a shrew seems as though she missed the part about loving others as we wish to be treated unless she likes being treated as by a shrew

[euphemia]

I am really sorry for your experience. Like I said, it is not my experience, but I have witnessed it with friends. I hope your life is better now.

[Sola_Fide]

Oh, I was previously and the church said stay and submit to the point of death. Every time you get beat it was because you weren't submitting properly.

What??? What church was this. Can you post the website please?

[moostraks]

I am really sorry for your experience. Like I said, it is not my experience, but I have witnessed it with friends. I hope your life is better now.

Thank you. It was my fault in that I chose him, but I had a very destructive childhood which tainted my capacity to rationalize appropriate relationship choices. I made several mistakes from which I had to learn the hard way. My husband and I have been married for almost 15 years now and he is a gem, and I have a wonderful number of children. Life is good.

[moostraks]

What??? What church was this. Can you post the website please?

This was over 20 years ago, so the name isn't coming to mind right now, and you tend to block out some details after this type of thing occurs. It was a Baptist church in Hartwell, Georgia back in '93. It was very traditional old southern Baptist. Now the deacons did come out and talk to him, but I was told to stay till death if necessary as I was a witness to my ex called to sacrifice, my life if necessary, and the ex was much more concerned with what they told me than what they told him. After that home visit he became even more overbearing with commanding me to do things and the repercussions would follow if I "disobeyed". The harder I tried to "submit" the further he moved the bar.

And while I appreciate the minister having given me the money, I lost all faith in institutional religion after that visit. The leader of the church was too cowardly to confront the deacons and allowed them to plant the conflicting message of stay until death when I was scolded in front of my husband. There were no women sent to speak with me, no help offered. Then after setting up the situation which followed where the ex became even more overbearing due to this men's club shaming that fed the ex's narcissism, I was pulled aside and told to flee if I felt necessary by the minister. I had a daughter who was a few months old at the time. I stayed for a longer time than necessary because of that conflicting and erroneous mixed message. It poisoned my daughter who has her own problems and learns the hard way. I turned my back on religion and the Bible for some time due to this poor teaching and failure by those who were supposed to be so much wiser in the Faith.

I never lost my connection to the Spirit, though. Even though most conventional Christians will say I was not of the Faith and cite their reasoning. I KNOW I never lost the connection to the Spirit. And the whole of the situation has made me stronger and shaped my views on Faith and Love.

[otherone]

This was over 20 years ago, so the name isn't coming to mind right now, and you tend to block out some details after this type of thing occurs. It was a Baptist church in Hartwell, Georgia back in '93. It was very traditional old southern Baptist. Now the deacons did come out and talk to him, but I was told to stay till death if necessary as I was a witness to my ex called to sacrifice, my life if necessary, and the ex was much more concerned with what they told me than what they told him. After that home visit he became even more overbearing with commanding me to do things and the repercussions would follow if I "disobeyed". The harder I tried to "submit" the further he moved the bar.

And while I appreciate the minister having given me the money, I lost all faith in institutional religion after that visit. The leader of the church was too cowardly to confront the deacons and allowed them to plant the conflicting message of stay until death when I was scolded in front of my husband. There were no women sent to speak with me, no help offered. Then after setting up the situation which followed where the ex became even more overbearing due to this men's club shaming that fed the ex's narcissism, I was pulled aside and told to flee if I felt necessary by the minister. I had a daughter who was a few months old at the time. I stayed for a longer time than necessary because of that conflicting and erroneous mixed message. It poisoned my daughter who has her own problems and learns the hard way. I turned my back on religion and the Bible for some time due to this poor teaching and failure by those who were supposed to be so much wiser in the Faith.

I never lost my connection to the Spirit, though. Even though most conventional Christians will say I was not of the Faith and cite their reasoning. I KNOW I never lost the connection to the Spirit. And the whole of the situation has made me stronger and shaped my views on Faith and Love.

Thank you for sharing your story. A nightmare for many reasons. IMO, the bible is an awful weapon in the wrong hands, given it's anachronistic content.
If I may ask, how is your daughter doing?
Sometimes I wonder about "Churchies"...do they have your best interest at heart, or their own?

[acptulsa]

Our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ is a model of submission.

Until He has to deal with tinpot dictators and banksters, that is.

12 And Jesus went into the temple of God, and cast out all them that sold and bought in the temple, and overthrew the tables of the moneychangers, and the seats of them that sold doves, 13 And said unto them, It is written, My house shall be called the house of prayer; but ye have made it a den of thieves.

23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law, judgment , mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done , and not to leave the other undone . 24 Ye blind guides, which strain at a gnat, and swallow a camel. 25 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye make clean the outside of the cup and of the platter, but within they are full of extortion and excess. 26 Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

[moostraks]

Thank you for sharing your story. A nightmare for many reasons. IMO, the bible is an awful weapon in the wrong hands, given it's anachronistic content.
If I may ask, how is your daughter doing?
Sometimes I wonder about "Churchies"...do they have your best interest at heart, or their own?

Well, I attempt to share my experiences so others can learn from my mistakes. My daughter has made a number of bad choices. She saw my weaknesses and decided to pick up a number of her biological father's behaviors because he seemed to get what he wanted even if in the end it cost him. She has put a terrible strain on her relationship with my husband and I, as well as her siblings, because she was a viscious person to live with the last 5+ years she lived here.

At 22 years old, she has 2 children of her own, a huge college debt and credit cards to pay off. Her first child's father is no longer in the picture. The second child's father moved with her back to Georgia because of her instigation. They are at each other's throats. They have a brand new home which she started complaining about immediately. They are not married but he is attempting to hold her to the debt of the house, but I don't think she signed on for anything more than a right of survivorship. After all the experiences I have had with her it is hard not to be sympathetic to her s.o.. She asks for advice but I regret it every time because I know what she wants is more an echo chamber than advice. I feel sorry for the grandchildren because there is nothing I can do. I feel like the bad choices she has made and continues to make are largely my fault because of my choice of marrying her biological father. So now my guilt is compacted for not just her misery and what she inflicts on her boyfriend, but what the grandchildren will eventually be like due to their chaotic household.

I have a son from that marriage as well. He is 18 months younger than his sister. I was so paranoid he would be just like his father that I did not see it wasn't him who was turning out that way but his sister. My son is very much like me, sometimes scary so, lol! He still lives at home and his siblings adore him, for the most part. Life was so much different here after my daughter moved out. It was the first time in my entire life I was able to live like a normal person. Drama is minimal, and I have 7 children at home with several hormonal teenage girls so that is saying something!