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Thread: The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter

  1. #331
    Proverbs 16:9 NASB

    The mind of man plans his way, But the L ord directs his steps.
    Jmdrake reads this and thinks "man is doing his part in history, and then God does his part too".

    What it really mean is "man makes his plans, but (either knowingly or unknowingly to him) God is directing everything."



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  3. #332
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    Neither really captures my understanding very well. My position is that time is wholly irrelevant to the operation of God, it is only relevant to us, temporal beings. God could have looked set Himself at the beginning and looked at the end of the universe and decided He didn't want it to end that way, so He then chose to accomplish the sacrifice to make a different end, and this would still have been done before the foundation of the world, because He was sitting at the beginning of the timeline when He decided that was how He was going to fix it. It was the sacrifice of Yeshua which redeemed David the King, Abraham, Moses, Seth, and Adam. I'm pretty sure you agree with that. I honestly don't understand why you keep bringing up the stuff that we actually agree on and saying that we don't.
    Okay, I honestly don't understand the difference between:

    "Since God exists outside of time Jesus was actually slain prior to the creation of the world and man just experienced that within man's concept of time" then attach the then to that then.

    and

    My position is that time is wholly irrelevant to the operation of God, it is only relevant to us, temporal beings.

    Maybe it's that I gave a description of what might have happened? Anyway, it's fine. I'm not arguing with you.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  4. #333
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Jmdrake reads this and thinks "man is doing his part in history, and then God does his part too".

    What it really mean is "man makes his plans, but (either knowingly or unknowingly to him) God is directing everything."
    I don't think you can actually point to Drake and tell him what he thinks. Both of y'all have been doing that to me, and both of y'all have been totally missing the mark on that score.

  5. #334
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I never said there was no difference between man's will before or after the fall and you know that or you should know that. I'm saying that if God's foreknowledge meant that man doesn't have freewill then man never had freewill. Are you saying that God didn't have foreknowledge before the fall?
    In what way is man's will different after the fall?

  6. #335
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Jmdrake reads this and thinks "man is doing his part in history, and then God does his part too".
    No. What I read that and know, not "think" is that God allows man to make plans and those plans may or may not line up with God's will and God intervenes and overrules those plans as necessary. Now whatever it is that you believe is unclear.

    What it really mean is "man makes his plans, but (either knowingly or unknowingly to him) God is directing everything."
    So here is your chance to actually be specific. Do you believe that man just thinks he makes the plans but God really is the one making them? Yes or no? Make up your mind. If "yes" then when man makes a plan to sin, that's really God's plan. If no, then you really aren't arguing against my point, and the most obvious interpretation of the verse, which is man makes his plans but God limits the outcome. Hitler planned to kill all the Jews in Germany but God didn't allow that to happen.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  7. #336
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    In what way is man's will different after the fall?
    In what way is God's foreknowledge different after the fall?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  9. #337
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    I don't think you can actually point to Drake and tell him what he thinks. Both of y'all have been doing that to me, and both of y'all have been totally missing the mark on that score.
    Actually I take your word on what you believe. I'm not sure you've done that with me, but that's okay.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  10. #338
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    In what way is God's foreknowledge different after the fall?
    God doesn't change. Man did change. In your view, how is man's will different now? You just said it was different. How?

  11. #339
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay, I honestly don't understand the difference between:

    "Since God exists outside of time Jesus was actually slain prior to the creation of the world and man just experienced that within man's concept of time" then attach the then to that then.

    and

    My position is that time is wholly irrelevant to the operation of God, it is only relevant to us, temporal beings.

    Maybe it's that I gave a description of what might have happened? Anyway, it's fine. I'm not arguing with you.
    That's certainly by far the closest of the three mentioned. The difference in my understanding is that it's not just man's concept of time, but that space-time is very real thing, it's not just a concept that we constrain ourselves within by our conceptualization of it, but we are constrained within spacetime by the reality of our condition while God is not, He is totally outside of it. The two statements above are different enough to fundamentally affect the paradigm I am describing, even if they are effectively the same from within a spacetime perspective. This is why I perceive them as different.

  12. #340
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    I'd say there aren't circumstances where one ignores those two, ever, and it is right. People are fallible though. I am always critiquing myself. It's too easy to go autopilot and come up with excuses later to soothe the conscience. Trust me, I know this all too well about myself.
    Thank you for your post. By the way, my frustration wasn't directed at you, or anyone in particular. I have a great deal of respect for those who bother posting at all here, and am attentive to what is being written.
    The reason that I hangout here, in particular, is because Americans, and by extension, America, claim to be a Christian nation. I've studied scriptures, I've had (too many) theology classes, I've studied other faiths, animism, and mythology. I recall a priest struggling to explain transubstantiation in catechism class (a million years ago), and the best he could do was: (paraphrasing) "it depends on what the definition of is, is." Mentioning the RCC is like spreading chum in the water here, so I do so with trepidation.

    I have no difficulty stating that Christianity is a pacifist religion, without exception, violence is never moral. I see people twist the bible to justify whatever is practical and expedient. Yes, we are all fallible....what I have a problem with is when we say sin is not sin, or sin is sometimes not sin, based on circumstances...God's law, corrupted by temporal conditions. We have no chance individually, or as a nation, to "get right" when we deliberately disobey God's two commandments and then say "it's ok". We GLORIFY war. GLORIFY it. We say it's HONORABLE. We call murderers HEROES. It won't change until we call it what it actually is....EVIL. But when we say evil is "sometimes" moral...then we have NO MORAL motivation to end it. Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.", but how can we comply if we deny what sin is?

    There is kindness and compassion in the world, there is real morality in the world, but it is very rare coming from professed "Christians".
    If Christians stood up and acknowledged what is going on, maybe we could end this. But, you know, Romans 13 and all...

    If one strives to follow those two commandments, does any of this other metaphysical dung being thrown around this board even matter?
    Last edited by otherone; 01-28-2015 at 04:02 PM.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  13. #341
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    God doesn't change. Man did change. In your view, how is man's will different now? You just said it was different. How?
    Right. God doesn't change. But you have repeatedly said that the proof that freewill doesn't exist is God's foreknowledge. So if God's foreknowledge existed before the fall, and it did, then you can't use His foreknowledge as proof that freewill doesn't exist. Understand now?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  14. #342
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    That's certainly by far the closest of the three mentioned. The difference in my understanding is that it's not just man's concept of time, but that space-time is very real thing, it's not just a concept that we constrain ourselves within by our conceptualization of it, but we are constrained within spacetime by the reality of our condition while God is not, He is totally outside of it. The two statements above are different enough to fundamentally affect the paradigm I am describing, even if they are effectively the same from within a spacetime perspective. This is why I perceive them as different.
    Okay.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #343
    Bryan should pay SF to post here.

  16. #344
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Right. God doesn't change. But you have repeatedly said that the proof that freewill doesn't exist is God's foreknowledge. So if God's foreknowledge existed before the fall, and it did, then you can't use His foreknowledge as proof that freewill doesn't exist. Understand now?
    No, I've never said that THHHHEEEE proof freewill doesn't exist is because of God's omnipotence and foreknowledge. Man's will is not free because man is fallen and the Bible says that man is a slave of sin, and can will no spiritual good.

    This is the reason why you won't answer my question about what happened to the will of man after the fall.



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  18. #345
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Bryan should pay SF to post here.
    Almost 2000 views and 343 replies in a day and half.

    And the best part about it is that Jesus is being glorified.

  19. #346
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    I don't think you can actually point to Drake and tell him what he thinks.
    Especially when you don't understand it.

    And I don't know why you're too busy stuffing words in their mouths and butting in on their conversation to answer the questions of people who are actually willing to risk wasting their time trying to talk to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Almost 2000 views and 343 replies in a day and half.

    And the best part about it is that Jesus is being glorified.
    Is that why you make an ass of yourself?

    Oh, yeah, I forgot. God makes you make an ass of yourself. What a wonderful alternative to personal responsibility.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 01-28-2015 at 05:05 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  20. #347
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Especially when you don't understand it.

    And I don't know why you're too busy stuffing words in their mouths and butting in on their conversation to answer the questions of people who are actually willing to risk wasting their time trying to talk to you.
    Okay,

    1) tell me what it is that you think I do not understand.

    2) tell me what words I have stuffed into anybody's mouth.

    3) this is a forum. Getting involved in conversations is why forums exist.

    4) thank you for calling a conversation with me a waste of time.

    Thanks in advance.

  21. #348
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    Okay,

    1) tell me what it is that you think I do not understand.
    That I was talking to S_F.

    I quoted your two cents by way of agreement, prior to chipping in my own.

    Does that explain two through four?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 01-28-2015 at 05:09 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  22. #349
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Thank you for your post. By the way, my frustration wasn't directed at you, or anyone in particular. I have a great deal of respect for those who bother posting at all here, and am attentive to what is being written.
    The reason that I hangout here, in particular, is because Americans, and by extension, America, claim to be a Christian nation. I've studied scriptures, I've had (too many) theology classes, I've studied other faiths, animism, and mythology. I recall a priest struggling to explain transubstantiation in catechism class (a million years ago), and the best he could do was: (paraphrasing) "it depends on what the definition of is, is." Mentioning the RCC is like spreading chum in the water here, so I do so with trepidation.

    I have no difficulty stating that Christianity is a pacifist religion, without exception, violence is never moral. I see people twist the bible to justify whatever is practical and expedient. Yes, we are all fallible....what I have a problem with is when we say sin is not sin, or sin is sometimes not sin, based on circumstances...God's law, corrupted by temporal conditions. We have no chance individually, or as a nation, to "get right" when we deliberately disobey God's two commandments and then say "it's ok". We GLORIFY war. GLORIFY it. We say it's HONORABLE. We call murderers HEROES. It won't change until we call it what it actually is....EVIL. But when we say evil is "sometimes" moral...then we have NO MORAL motivation to end it. Jesus said, "I do not condemn you, either. Go. From now on sin no more.", but how can we comply if we deny what sin is?

    There is kindness and compassion in the world, there is real morality in the world, but it is very rare coming from professed "Christians".
    If Christians stood up and acknowledged what is going on, maybe we could end this. But, you know, Romans 13 and all...

    If one strives to follow those two commandments, does any of this other metaphysical dung being thrown around this board even matter?
    Yeah, transubstantiation is really complicated. I don't think it can be explained coherently in less than a full lecture. JMHO.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  23. #350
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Yeah, transubstantiation is really complicated. I don't think it can be explained coherently in less than a full lecture. JMHO.
    It is comforting to see you say that.

    I have sometimes heard that doctrine's adherents insist that it involves nothing more than simply accepting the plain meaning of the words, "This is my body," and "This is my blood."

    Isn't it at all problematic to you that believing this doctrine, as complicated as it is, would be treated by some as a prerequisite for membership in the One True Church?
    Last edited by erowe1; 01-28-2015 at 05:57 PM.

  24. #351
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Yeah, transubstantiation is really complicated. I don't think it can be explained coherently in less than a full lecture. JMHO.
    I would say better experienced than theorized.

  25. #352
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    That I was talking to S_F.

    I quoted your two cents by way of agreement, prior to chipping in my own.

    Does that explain two through four?
    Aye, sorry, I thought that's what you were doing in #1. #2-4 I was like, oh, what?? lol



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  27. #353
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Isn't it at all problematic to you that believing this doctrine, as complicated as it is, would be treated by some as a prerequisite for membership in the One True Church?
    Why draw a distinction between this and any of the other hard-to-swallow (pun intended) dogma?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  28. #354
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    Why draw a distinction between this and any of the other hard-to-swallow (pun intended) dogma?
    It isn't.

  29. #355
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    It isn't.
    ???
    It isn't different from the rest of Christian dogma? Then why single it out?
    Last edited by otherone; 01-28-2015 at 06:23 PM.
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  30. #356
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No, I've never said that THHHHEEEE proof freewill doesn't exist is because of God's omnipotence and foreknowledge. Man's will is not free because man is fallen and the Bible says that man is a slave of sin, and can will no spiritual good.
    Okay. So you are ready now to complete drop the foreknowledge is AAAAAA reason freewill doesn't exist? Because you can't have it both ways. If foreknowledge in any way shape or form then it equally applies before or after the fall.


    This is the reason why you won't answer my question about what happened to the will of man after the fall.
    Wrong. You are highly disrespectful in not answering my questions and then demanding that I answer yours. But to answer your question man had a bent towards sin after the fall but the ability to respond to God. "When the knew God they worshiped Him not as God and were not thankful so God gave them up to a reprobate mind." Man is not born with a reprobate mind even after the fall according to the Bible.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  31. #357
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Thus proving nothing. Mr. Drake already said he believes that God engineered Napoleon's and Hitler's destruction. And the Bible does not say God engineered the actions of Israel's enemies.



    The God of Isaiah only claimed credit for light and darkness, and for prosperity and disaster, so far as I can see there. Not for micromanaging attacks on Israel.

    So, has ignoring my post made it go away yet? Is it inconvenient when I interrupt your imitation of a broken record or a tape loop? Sorry. God made me do it.
    Well, in Isaiah 10 God sort of does claim credit for leading Assyria to attack Israel. He predestined it. You could possibly get out of this by claiming that the initial attack wasn't "sin" because God commanded it, and it was only the pride that followed that was sinful. I'm going to check the text right after I finish this post and see if that's even potentially workable. But its hard to deny that he predestined it.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  32. #358
    I just read the text of Isaiah 10 and it seems to me that God isn't holding the Assyrians morally responsible for invading and plundering Israel as such. It seems that God actually wanted them to do that. What he is condemning them for is their boastful pride.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  33. #359
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Well, in Isaiah 10 God sort of does claim credit for leading Assyria to attack Israel. He predestined it. You could possibly get out of this by claiming that the initial attack wasn't "sin" because God commanded it, and it was only the pride that followed that was sinful. I'm going to check the text right after I finish this post and see if that's even potentially workable. But its hard to deny that he predestined it.
    In Isaiah 10, God uses the evil Assyria armies to judge Israel for their pride, then afterward, judges the Assyrians themselves for their pride! And God says the Assyrians don't even know that they are the "axe in the hand" of God. You won't see an Arminian-type get anywhere near Isaiah 10.

  34. #360
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I just read the text of Isaiah 10 and it seems to me that God isn't holding the Assyrians morally responsible for invading and plundering Israel as such. It seems that God actually wanted them to do that. What he is condemning them for is their boastful pride.
    I agree.



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