Originally Posted by acptulsa
Ok. So what do you think the passage means then?
Yes, it was prepared "for" the sheep. That's what the passage says. God knows everything beginning to end. He knew who would be there before He created the world...and He purposed who would be there before the creation of the world.
That's what the passage says.
That's not what the passage says.
You're awfully desperate to look away from the prophesy of the Judgement Day (in particular and Jesus' Own Words in general) and get your needle back in the broken groove and comfortably stuck again.
Tell me where He mentions the 'believes in preordination' group and the 'doesn't believe in preordination' group in His prophesy. Or tell me why, if that's the whole trick, the whole purpose, the entire point to all creation, they aren't worth mentioning. Or give me a good reason why Jesus would lie about it. Or stop with the false prophesying, or at the very least have enough respect for us to go try to lead people down the garden path to Hell from some other forum.
You're frustrated too, aren't you? You were taught from infancy how to lead people by the nose to a false conclusion by asking them a certain set of leading questions designed to solicit incorrect and illogical answers. This is the exact same tactic cops use to get confessions out of the innocent. And when someone won't play that game you assume the devil has hold of them. But their stubbornness isn't the devil in them, it's their defense from the devil. It's them not letting their vanity, which your questions are designed to tickle, and their herd instinct, which your questions are designed to prey on, make them susceptible to the devil.
And how can I be so sure the devil's in your details? Simple. The Bible tells me so. Where are the 'believes in preordination' and 'doesn't believe in preordination' groups in Jesus' account of the Day of Judgement?
What it says.
Jesus had (unsurprisingly) a God-like ability to anticipate future attempts to find loopholes and to knit His language so closely that they just weren't there.
No wonder you spend all your time in Romans.
Last edited by acptulsa; 01-31-2015 at 09:30 AM.
Sola,,
You are stuck.. you are stuck in just one (one of many) branch of the reformers. And all of the reformers was trying to correct errors.. And all had some valid points.. and retained some error.
Let me ask you a question,,and don't jump to an answer,, but think on it.
Do you agree with the Counsel of Laodicea ?
Because they defined your bible. ( it is still sufficient,and balances all doctrine)
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Right. Failing to respond to the argument that destroys the premise of the OP you want to go back to the OP. Again, what change happens in a man when God gives him over to a reprobate mind? I've rephrased the question so that maybe you will attempt to answer it this time.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
He uses proof texting to force a position outside of the text. Then he complains when people spend the time to show the error of the position he is forcing, and he demands everyone let him play the game of isolated verses and erroneous ideas. Then he claims some sort of victory that never existed when no one plays by his ridiculous rules.
The Bible is not fortune cookie sayings collected together, but it is a guidebook of thought for righteous living. The entire book must be read together as a complete thought. Wolves in sheeps clothing, like the examples provided within Matthew and Luke 4, seem to enjoy this method of conversion to their beliefs. No one should feel insulted by someone who plays this game. The wolves' actions speaking volumes while their words say little. This is why people should constantly stay grounded in their faith because the wolves operate on the fringes to pick off those that only know Scripture through small bites of wisdom.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
It's so ridiculous it doesn't deserve a response. The idea that there are two groups of sinners, one "kind of depraved" and the other "really depraved" has absolutely no biblical support and is contradicted by the passages in Romans 2 and 3 that I posted for you.
He uses proof texting to force a position outside of the text. Then he complains when people spend the time to show the error of the position he is forcing, and he demands everyone let him play the game of isolated verses and erroneous ideas. Then he claims some sort of victory that never existed when no one plays by his ridiculous rules.
The Bible is not fortune cookie sayings collected together, but it is a guidebook of thought for righteous living. The entire book must be read together as a complete thought. Wolves in sheeps clothing, like the examples provided within Matthew and Luke 4, seem to enjoy this method of conversion to their beliefs. No one should feel insulted by someone who plays this game. The wolves' actions speaking volumes while their words say little. This is why people should constantly stay grounded in their faith because the wolves operate on the fringes to pick off those that only know Scripture through small bites of wisdom.
You're right. The Bible should be read in context. When Romans 2 and 3 says that all men alike are fallen and do not seek God, we shouldn't create an artificial distinction in Romans 1 and say that some fallen men can actually choose God.
What did the council of Leodicia say?
Yes, the Reformers had many errors. Most of their errors came from the fact that they had not sufficiently separated their theology from Rome. They still didn't fully accept the Scripture alone.
Aside from unilaterally defining what was heresy,, and codifying a hierarchy and removing several books of both historical and spiritual significance.
But then,,, christianity was the official state religion they needed Authority to maintain control and discipline.
They removed much before the reformers (in the same error) removed even more.
Essentially,, the bible was decided by them.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
~~~It is like a record which just skips skipping. Romans 1, Revelation 3, provide the context to understand the concept.
This thread is just a repeat of every thread you have abandoned in the past...
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
Yes, in Romans 1, it says that the revelation that God gives to man in nature is enough to render him without excuse. It condemns man before God. That is the "weird part" of the text that you don't like, but it is what refutes your idea. In Romans 3, it says that no man seeks for God and all men are under the powerof sin. That may be another "weird part" to you, but that is how you can tell your theology isn't biblical.
Matthew 23:2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others.
13 “But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you shut the kingdom of heaven in people's faces. For you neither enter yourselves nor allow those who would enter to go in.15 Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you travel across sea and land to make a single proselyte, and when he becomes a proselyte, you make him twice as much a child of hell as yourselves.
Thread: The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter
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01-31-2015 12:11 PM
Sola_FideThread: The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter
almost 4000 views and 458 responses! Thank you for contributing.
01-29-2015 06:02 PM
Sola_Fide
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
The councils didn't "decide" what books would be in the Bible, they merely identified what books Christians had always known to be Scripture in the face of new obvious forgeries.
Right. The Pharisees put the burden of working the law on the people when they themselves were lawbreakers. All the people here who say that man's efforts are the cause of salvation are putting heavy burdens on man. "Christianity" today is full of modern-day Pharisees.
This is not your church and you do not have the authority to pass proclamations as to my beliefs. You ignore the continuity between what was said in Revelation 3 which backs up the position being made for Romans 1. Your weird emphasis is to pick a handful of words out of one verse to the exclusion of a running explanation within other texts. You see what you want to see...
~~~peace on your path
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
They removed many,
Books the early church used,, and quoted.
And Enoch also, the seventh from Adam, prophesied of these, saying, Behold, the Lord cometh with ten thousands of his saints,
To execute judgment upon all, and to convince all that are ungodly among them of all their ungodly deeds which they have ungodly committed, and of all their hard speeches which ungodly sinners have spoken against him.
These are murmurers, complainers, walking after their own lusts; and their mouth speaketh great swelling words, having men's persons in admiration because of advantage.And Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.The early Church knew about Enoch. The books of Enoch,, a prophet of God,,Who walked with God..was banned. I would say that is significant,By faith Enoch was taken from this life, so that he did not experience death: "He could not be found, because God had taken him away." For before he was taken, he was commended as one who pleased God.
My point is,,the history of errors.. some are very old and have stuck around.. even through reform.
They skew the understanding.
Last edited by pcosmar; 01-31-2015 at 12:49 PM.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
...and "decided" to not include the ones that were "forgeries".
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
Right. Christians for centuries knew what came from the apostles. So when new books claimed to be written by Thomas came 500 years later, the church said no, these are not what we have had from the beginning from the apostles.
The Pharisees elevated themselves and placed their beliefs above Love and made sure that everyone was aware of their accomplishments. Their interests were self serving yet they professed concern for others by dripping insincere statements and burdened others with their false philosophy that shut people out from having a relationship with the Creator. The unwitting professed them to be wise and sincere, and were made twice the child of hell of the Pharisee.
Being genetically shut out from the kingdom of heaven is a massive burden to heap upon the souls of other seekers. When the seekers turn their backs at the knock they thought they heard but question due to erroneous teachings which proclaim them to be pots destined for destruction before they even turned the knob, it is the Pharisee who came as a sheep which was their undoing and caused their foolish hearts to be darkened.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
Did SF really ever say he was talking about seekers?
oh, and when S_F is crowing about thread views he has inflated the number in his rep responses to me. The first one, S_F, you were 400 shy of 4000 when you made the comment, today you had not yet hit 5000, but you have no problem inflating your numbers like any good politician does...
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
No, SF doesn't care about the light of Love in everyone, he cares about those who will parrot his viewpoint. Some of us don't have such a limited view of the Creator's love for His creation.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
So he's not actually heaping the burden of being shut out of the kingdom of Heaven on seekers? Because that's what you implied.
Yes he is. The philosophy he espouses shuts people out and there are incidents that have evidenced this by which other people having said as much to him. His claims about my views are numerous in which he placed himself in judgement of my faith and were I to listen to him and be discouraged it would be to his credit for deciding he has the authority to sit in judgement of my relationship with the Creator. (the deciding factor to my faith in his view being that I am to agree with him or I am condemned)(y'all are no different than the faiths you suppose you reformed but you seem to just make it the tyranny of a less centralized nature)
Being as you are a member of the elect I would not expect for you to understand this as he is in mutual agreement with you on the larger issue of us condemned pots created to glorify you, SF, and FF.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
Excuse me? You consider clothing the naked, feeding the hungry, comforting the grieving, visiting the incarcerated and things like that a heavy burden? Sorry to hear that.
Or are you about to say that the only alternative to believing in preordination (a mighty heavy burden, since Jesus described the Judgement Day, told how the goats will be divided, and didn't mention it, which means if believing in preordination is the key Jesus is a liar) or obeying every little aspect of Judaic Law all your life long (a doubly heavy burden since Jesus didn't say that either)?
I'm sorry you consider being humane to humans a heavier burden than believing Jesus to be a liar. I don't.
If you can't show how he is using his own words, then wouldn't it be better and more honest on your part to interact with what he actually does say?
Is that so strange a thing to think, given the fact that nobody has yet succeeded at doing any of those things?
Yeah...I saw that. Loving God and your neighbor is a "burden", apparently, because "love" is a burden.
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
Why are you guys so concerned about what other people have done?
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
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