Is Paul talking about all men in Romans 1? In Romans 1, all the men that were spoken of were given over to a reprobate mind. So all men have a reprobate mind now?Originally Posted by jmdrake
Why are you asking him if something is the case when responding to a post in which he said it is not the case?
Do you have a point? Or are you merely attempting in vain to glorify God by demonstrating that He made you blind as a bat?
You don't have to be so insulting with your posts. We are discussing things here. In Romans 1, all the men that are talked about are given over to a depraved mind:
JMdrake said he thinks that all men have a choice and then God gives them over to the depraved mind. But Paul in Romans 1, 2, and 3 is talking about ALL men. If men had a choice, they've already chosen it. And God has given them over.18 The wrath of God is being revealed from heaven against all the godlessness and wickedness of people, who suppress the truth by their wickedness, 19 since what may be known about God is plain to them, because God has made it plain to them. 20 For since the creation of the world God’s invisible qualities—his eternal power and divine nature—have been clearly seen, being understood from what has been made, so that people are without excuse.
21 For although they knew God, they neither glorified him as God nor gave thanks to him, but their thinking became futile and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Although they claimed to be wise, they became fools 23 and exchanged the glory of the immortal God for images made to look like a mortal human being and birds and animals and reptiles.
24 Therefore God gave them over in the sinful desires of their hearts to sexual impurity for the degrading of their bodies with one another. 25 They exchanged the truth about God for a lie, and worshiped and served created things rather than the Creator—who is forever praised. Amen.
26 Because of this, God gave them over to shameful lusts. Even their women exchanged natural sexual relations for unnatural ones. 27 In the same way the men also abandoned natural relations with women and were inflamed with lust for one another. Men committed shameful acts with other men, and received in themselves the due penalty for their error.
28 Furthermore, just as they did not think it worthwhile to retain the knowledge of God, so God gave them over to a depraved mind, so that they do what ought not to be done. 29 They have become filled with every kind of wickedness, evil, greed and depravity. They are full of envy, murder, strife, deceit and malice. They are gossips, 30 slanderers, God-haters, insolent, arrogant and boastful; they invent ways of doing evil; they disobey their parents; 31 they have no understanding, no fidelity, no love, no mercy. 32 Although they know God’s righteous decree that those who do such things deserve death, they not only continue to do these very things but also approve of those who practice them.
This proves my point ALL men are fallen and cannot will in spiritual good.
Edifying? Good. I take that as a step in the right direction.
Is understanding scripture that difficult for you? In the same chapter he talked about men giving themselves over to unseemly lust and doing with each other what they would normally do with women.
26 For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:
27 And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.
28 And even as they did not like to retain God in their knowledge, God gave them over to a reprobate mind, to do those things which are not convenient;
Obviously that's not all men so obviously Paul was not talking about all men. And considering I said that all men have a fallen mind but not all men have a reprobate mind then I don't believe all men have a reprobate mind.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Romans 1, 2 and 3 does not say that all men have a reprobate mind anymore than it says all men are gay. You really are stretching it.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
In Romans 2 Paul is talking about every person:
In Romans 3 Paul is talking about every person:9 There will be trouble and distress for every human being who does evil: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile; 10 but glory, honor and peace for everyone who does good: first for the Jew, then for the Gentile. 11 For God does not show favoritism.
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
So why do you say Romans 1 is not talking about every person???
And you don't have to be so insulting as to look straight at a thoughtful answer, then ignore it and ask the question again.
Is that so?
Let's try again, shall we?
You figure that's everybody, do you?
I guess that means you burn with lust for other men? And I presume that if I told you I don't, you'll call me a liar?
In Romans 2 Paul doesn't use the term reprobate.
In Romans 3 Paul doesn't use the term reprobate.
Why do you think Paul is calling everyone reprobate when he isn't calling everyone gay? Or do you believe he is calling everyone gay?
Last edited by jmdrake; 01-29-2015 at 05:28 PM.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Jews and Gentiles alike (everyone) are under the power of sin.
Why do you say that men under the power of sin can do good things like choose God? Then they wouldn't be under the power of sin, would they?
Even you don't believe that.
No wonder you favor the epistles so much. They're often so vague you can use the same one to support completely contradictory points--and all within the space of an hour.
I don't know what you're trying to accomplish here, but you are doing a fine job of convincing casual onlookers that Christians are crazy as bedbugs.
And I certainly hope that I've successfully made the point that not all Christians fit that description, because I have better things to do than to continue to play this silly-assed game.
Last edited by acptulsa; 01-29-2015 at 05:46 PM.
9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Jews and Gentiles alike (everyone) are under the power of sin.
Why do you say that men under the power of sin can do good things like choose God? Then they wouldn't be under the power of sin, would they?
Which is a thought preceding this point:
Romans 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.
God’s Righteousness Through Faith
21 But now the righteousness of God apart from the law is revealed, being witnessed by the Law and the Prophets, 22 even the righteousness of God, through faith in Jesus Christ, to all and on all who believe. For there is no difference; 23 for all have sinned and fall short of the glory of God, 24 being justified freely by His grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus, 25 whom God set forth as a propitiation by His blood, through faith, to demonstrate His righteousness, because in His forbearance God had passed over the sins that were previously committed, 26 to demonstrate at the present time His righteousness, that He might be just and the justifier of the one who has faith in Jesus.
Boasting Excluded
27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? Of works? No, but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith apart from the deeds of the law. 29 Or is He the God of the Jews only? Is He not also the God of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also, 30 since there is one God who will justify the circumcised by faith and the uncircumcised through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? Certainly not! On the contrary, we establish the law.
Which goes back to this:
Romans 1:16 For I am not ashamed of the gospel of Christ,[a] for it is the power of God to salvation for everyone who believes, for the Jew first and also for the Greek. 17 For in it the righteousness of God is revealed from faith to faith; as it is written, “The just shall live by faith.”
For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who suppress the truth in unrighteousness, 19 because what may be known of God is manifest in them, for God has shown it to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even His eternal power and Godhead, so that they are without excuse, 21 because, although they knew God, they did not glorify Him as God, nor were thankful, but became futile in their thoughts, and their foolish hearts were darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and changed the glory of the incorruptible God into an image made like corruptible man—and birds and four-footed animals and creeping things.
Your point is what? The just live by faith, the law is established, not voided, and those that knew God have their foolish hearts darkened.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
This is the second time a debate thread about Christian doctrine has shared an extreme amount of similarity with a phrase that is very sexual in nature. Do you guys do that on purpose??
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
...Titus 1:15
To the pure, all things are pure, but to those who are corrupted and do not believe, nothing is pure. In fact, both their minds and consciences are corrupted.
Sure. Being under the power of sin is being fallen. That doesn't mean that's the same as being reprobate. How many times do I have to say that before it sinks in? Here's the fact. Paul said God gave people over after they had quit worshiping Him as God to a reprobate mind. So if the already had a reprobate mind then God was being redundant. That's just silly.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
If people are under the power of sin, as Paul says, why does he then say that "no one seeks for God"?
You are saying people under the power of sin still seek God. Paul is saying people under the power of sin don't seek God. Why are you saying that?9 What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. 10 As it is written:
“There is no one righteous, not even one;
11
there is no one who understands;
there is no one who seeks God.
12
All have turned away,
they have together become worthless;
there is no one who does good,
not even one.”
Maybe because He initiates the contact but everyone is aware of Him at some point:
Revelation 3:Behold, I stand at the door and knock; if anyone hears My voice and opens the door, I will come in to him and will dine with him, and he with Me. 21‘He who overcomes, I will grant to him to sit down with Me on My throne, as I also overcame and sat down with My Father on His throne. 22‘He who has an ear, let him hear what the Spirit says to the churches.’”
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
Well I think sex is pure and churches are corrupt and cause violence and further statism, that's just my opinion of course.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
In your verse, the contact was to the churches, not everyone.
I know you do.
People who are fallen but not reprobate can respond to God. Tell me this. You keep asking questions but you lack the decency to give a straightforward answer. Why do you think there is no difference between the state of mind of men before God gave them over to a reprobate mind and the state of mind after? That makes no sense. Either there is something wrong with God or there is something wrong with Paul or ther is something wrong with you. I personally think God and Paul are fine.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Acts 17:27 God did this so that they would seek him and perhaps reach out for him and find him, though he is not far from any one of us.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
What was the first?
Again, asking for a friend.
I'm guessing the "submission" thread.
You emphasize the weirdest portions of the text as though it contains some point you claim is there but it isn't. Uh, yeah the Spirit is speaking to the churches, but now you are ignoring Romans 1 at this point. Behold He stands at the door and knocks, if anyone hears and opens the door, ...he who overcomes, I will grant him to sit down with me parallels the description in Romans 1, they knew God, all things that are made, as He stood at the door and knocked, yet they did not hear Him and open the door, they did not worship Him, they became futile in their thoughts, then their hearts were darkened and they were abandoned to the desires they placed above the Creator they knew. The just lived by faith, which is Love. Those that did not overcome became foolish in their thoughts and their hearts were darkened.
You cannot proof text. The entire Book has to be viewed in context of the totality and continuity of the text.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
But the verse in Romans 1 is talking about ALL men. This culminates in the *conclusion* to Paul's line of thought in Romans 3:
Romans 3:9-11
What shall we conclude then? Do we have any advantage? Not at all! For we have already made the charge that Jews and Gentiles alike are all under the power of sin. As it is written: “There is no one righteous, not even one; there is no one who understands; there is no one who seeks God.
The *conclusion* to Paul's line of thought from the preceding 2 chapters is that ALL men, Jew and Gentile, are alike under the power of sin and no one seeks for God.
Your use of "reprobate" doesn't even appear in most versions. Most use the word "depraved". There is no textual support for the ridiculous separation you are making.
Well, this one..
The Scope of Passover and Penal Substitution Theory
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...itution-Theory
And I could have sworn there was another one about a year ago that was up on the front page for days.
"He's talkin' to his gut like it's a person!!" -me
"dumpster diving isn't professional." - angelatc
"You don't need a medical degree to spot obvious bullshit, that's actually a separate skill." -Scott Adams
"When you are divided, and angry, and controlled, you target those 'different' from you, not those responsible [controllers]" -Q
"Each of us must choose which course of action we should take: education, conventional political action, or even peaceful civil disobedience to bring about necessary changes. But let it not be said that we did nothing." - Ron Paul
"Paul said "the wave of the future" is a coalition of anti-authoritarian progressive Democrats and libertarian Republicans in Congress opposed to domestic surveillance, opposed to starting new wars and in favor of ending the so-called War on Drugs."
Could it be possible that you are a sexual pervert? I ask in the most respectful way possible.
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