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Thread: The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter

  1. #1

    The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter

    But to disobeying ones, He is the “Stone which those building rejected; this One became the Head of the Corner,” and a Stone-of-stumbling,

    and a Rock-of-offense” to the ones stumbling, being disobedient to the Word, to which they were also appointed.


    1 Peter 2:6-10
    Not only are the chosen ones an "elect race", but the ones being disobedient were "appointed" as well.

    The Bible teaches that all men are predestined to either salvation or reprobation.
    Last edited by Sola_Fide; 11-17-2015 at 08:35 PM.



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  3. #2
    Oh goody, you are back to inform everyone they are not Christians unless they agree with each theory you propose. Must be nice to have such power...
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  4. #3
    Hi Moostraks. Do you have a comment on the text of the Bible I posted?

  5. #4
    God please no
    I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States...When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

    Andrew Jackson, 1834

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Do you have a comment on the text of the Bible I posted?
    The above was referencing that, specifically your intention to start throwing down on people commanding they agree with (insert pet doctrine of the week) or YOU will say they are not Christian. Since He made some people to glorify your chosen ness, I suppose you'd like to lay it out so they are condemned to never rise above the position?

    Why bother concerning oneself with any responsibility for one's actions? The save will be saved by their understanding they are saved and they can rape and molest children but the fact they believe proper doctrines shows they need just to repent and they are saved but those who disagree with your god of hate and contempt are condemned by not agreeing with your theories.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    The above was referencing that, specifically your intention to start throwing down on people commanding they agree with (insert pet doctrine of the week) or YOU will say they are not Christian. Since He made some people to glorify your chosen ness, I suppose you'd like to lay it out so they are condemned to never rise above the position?

    Why bother concerning oneself with any responsibility for one's actions? The save will be saved by their understanding they are saved and they can rape and molest children but the fact they believe proper doctrines shows they need just to repent and they are saved but those who disagree with your god of hate and contempt are condemned by not agreeing with your theories.
    Um...actually I was just trying to get your take on 1st Peter 2:6-10. What is your take on it?

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Not only are the chosen ones an "elect race", but the ones being disobedient were "appointed" as well.

    All Christians believe in the doctrine of double predestination.
    I wouldn't go this far. Some new Christians don't know their Bible very well. Some "for a time" to quote you from another thread, resist what they should know in their hearts to be true, despite the Bible being clear on it.

    Double predestination is definitively true.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I wouldn't go this far. Some new Christians don't know their Bible very well. Some "for a time" to quote you from another thread, resist what they should know in their hearts to be true, despite the Bible being clear on it.

    Double predestination is definitively true.

    FF, what do you think this verse means?

    “Everyone transgressing and not abiding in the doctrine of Christ does not have God. The one abiding in the doctrine of Christ, this one has the Father and the Son”.

    -2 John 1:9



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  11. #9
    Well that didn't take long.

    God preserve us...
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  12. #10
    Sola,

    As one believer to another, why do you ask? What are your motives?

    The debate surrounding this topic has ensued for centuries, and will continue until glory. Mountains of treatises, commentaries, etc., have been written on the subject, enough to stir your curiosity for a lifetime.

    It's already been debated here ad nauseum, and to what end?

    1 Cor. 13:1-3
    The bigger government gets, the smaller I wish it was.
    My new motto: More Love, Less Laws

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post

    God preserve us...
    That is a wonderful prayer, since it is God alone who makes one stand firm in Christ:

    Now it is God who makes both us and you stand firm in Christ. He anointed us, set his seal of ownership on us, and put his Spirit in our hearts as a deposit, guaranteeing what is to come.

    -2nd Corinthians 1:21

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    That is a wonderful prayer, since it is God alone who makes one stand firm in Christ:
    Here's another one: God, help us to understand the Word, which is quite obviously what Peter said we are appointed to, and to preserve it and not twist it lest we become a stumbling-block ourselves. Amen.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    Here's another one: God, help us to understand the Word, which is quite obviously what Peter said we are appointed to, and to preserve it and not twist it lest we become a stumbling-block ourselves. Amen.
    Well...with all due respect, that is not a Biblical prayer, because the verse in the OP says that Jesus Himself is the stumbling block that the ones appointed to destruction stumble over.

  16. #14
    Yeah. We were all "elected" to believe the OP doesn't understand election. It's all pre ordained. No need wasting time arguing over what's already set in stone right? It's amazing that the same people that will take one verse out of context that supports their idea will either ignore or contort versus that don't.

    1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    As to the verse in the OP, yes it was appointed that some would believe Jesus and some would not just like it is appointed that sometimes a coin will come up heads and sometimes tails. It was not appointed who those specific people would be. But if it is, then Christianity is a waste of time because either you're appointed to be saved or you aren't. There's no need to preach to people that people should believe in Jesus, because either they will or they won't. Oh you can say "But maybe God meant that's the way people will learn to believe." Well..once you do that, you've injected man into salvation, specifically the preacher (or the Internet soap boxer) whether you are willing to admit that or not.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by georgiaboy View Post
    Sola,

    As one believer to another, why do you ask? What are your motives?

    The debate surrounding this topic has ensued for centuries, and will continue until glory. Mountains of treatises, commentaries, etc., have been written on the subject, enough to stir your curiosity for a lifetime.

    It's already been debated here ad nauseum, and to what end?

    1 Cor. 13:1-3
    My motive is to spur a civil discussion in the religious forum. That's really it.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Well...with all due respect, that is not a Biblical prayer, because the verse in the OP says that Jesus Himself is the stumbling block that the ones appointed to destruction stumble over.
    Actually acptulsa's prayer that God help us understand, and not twist, scripture is 100% biblical and straight from Peter.

    2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Um...actually I was just trying to get your take on 1st Peter 2:6-10. What is your take on it?
    Reread what I wrote as that is my take on it. If you push double predestination as a defining principle between sheep and goats then I am inclined to ask who benefits? I think it is a bogus theory to apply to the individual and destroys the soul of the seeker who questions their sin being forced upon His creation by a loving God.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Not only are the chosen ones an "elect race", but the ones being disobedient were "appointed" as well.

    All Christians believe in the doctrine of double predestination.
    Welcome back, S_F.

    I have to read these scriptures like eight times before I understand them. I don't know if it is the language or structure or what. I don't see why you've specifically chosen to mention an "elect race", though. Maybe have to read it a few more times. Heh...

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    My motive is to spur a civil discussion in the religious forum. That's really it.
    If that were true then you would not have antagonized folks with this:

    All Christians believe in the doctrine of double predestination.
    Which after years of your "discussion" devolves from there. You have had this argument in various forms here for years. So what do you think will be different this time?
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    If that were true then you would not have antagonized folks with this:



    Which after years of your "discussion" devolves from there. You have had this argument in various forms here for years. So what do you think will be different this time?
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to moostraks again.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    My motive is to spur a civil discussion in the religious forum. That's really it.
    I really don't see a problem in believing that God created people knowing that they weren't saved. It's similar to already having watched a movie and knowing who dies. If one is saved by Grace, isn't God aware of his own future actions?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Yeah. We were all "elected" to believe the OP doesn't understand election. It's all pre ordained. No need wasting time arguing over what's already set in stone right? It's amazing that the same people that will take one verse out of context that supports their idea will either ignore or contort versus that don't.

    1 John 2:2 He is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not only for ours but also for the sins of the whole world.

    As to the verse in the OP, yes it was appointed that some would believe Jesus and some would not just like it is appointed that sometimes a coin will come up heads and sometimes tails. It was not appointed who those specific people would be. But if it is, then Christianity is a waste of time because either you're appointed to be saved or you aren't. There's no need to preach to people that people should believe in Jesus, because either they will or they won't. Oh you can say "But maybe God meant that's the way people will learn to believe." Well..once you do that, you've injected man into salvation, specifically the preacher (or the Internet soap boxer) whether you are willing to admit that or not.
    Yes. Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the sins of the elect throughout the whole world, not just the ones who were in the hearing when that letter was read to them.

    Revelation 5:9

    And they sang a new song, saying, "Worthy are You to take the book and to break its seals; for You were slain, and purchased for God with Your blood men from every tribe and tongue and people and nation.
    He didn't purchase every person, but He purchased men all around the world.

    Also, I was wondering about what your take is on the verse in the OP, specifically when it says that the disobedient ones were appointed as well as the elect.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    I really don't see a problem in believing that God created people knowing that they weren't saved. It's similar to already having watched a movie and knowing who dies. If one is saved by Grace, isn't God aware of his own future actions?
    It's not a problem biblically of course. The Bible teaches it. But it is a problem to the sinful mind of man who recoils at the thought that he is not autonomous.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Natural Citizen View Post
    Welcome back, S_F.

    I have to read these scriptures like eight times before I understand them. I don't know if it is the language or structure or what. I don't see why you've specifically chosen to mention an "elect race", though. Maybe have to read it a few more times. Heh...
    I agree. There is certainly a language of the Bible that takes a little study to sort through.



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  29. #25
    "It is very good to recite the mantra Om mani padme hum, but while you are doing it, you should be thinking on its meaning, for the meaning of the six syllables is great and vast... The first, Om [...] symbolizes the practitioner's impure body, speech, and mind; it also symbolizes the pure exalted body, speech, and mind of a Buddha[...]" "The path is indicated by the next four syllables. Mani, meaning jewel, symbolizes the factors of method: (the) altruistic intention to become enlightened, compassion, and love.[...]" "The two syllables, padme, meaning lotus, symbolize wisdom[...]" "Purity must be achieved by an indivisible unity of method and wisdom, symbolized by the final syllable hum, which indicates indivisibility[...]" "Thus the six syllables, om mani padme hum, mean that in dependence on the practice of a path which is an indivisible union of method and wisdom, you can transform your impure body, speech, and mind into the pure exalted body, speech, and mind of a Buddha[...]"

    Tenzin Gyatso, 14th Dalai Lama


    Last edited by presence; 01-27-2015 at 12:06 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    It's not a problem biblically of course. The Bible teaches it. But it is a problem to the sinful mind of man who recoils at the thought that he is not autonomous.
    So what you are saying is that one does not become saved, one recognizes that he IS saved. Thinking otherwise one:
    a) fails to recognize the sovereignty of God and
    b) believes they are the cause of their own salvation.
    Is this close?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Actually acptulsa's prayer that God help us understand, and not twist, scripture is 100% biblical and straight from Peter.

    2 Peter 3:16 He writes the same way in all his letters, speaking in them of these matters. His letters contain some things that are hard to understand, which ignorant and unstable people distort, as they do the other Scriptures, to their own destruction.
    I agree. Let's not twist the Scriptures.

    So when the verse in the OP says that the elect were appointed as well as the disobedient ones, how should a bible - believer respond to that?

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    So what you are saying is that one does not become saved, one recognizes that he IS saved. Thinking otherwise one:
    a) fails to recognize the sovereignty of God and
    b) believes they are the cause of their own salvation.
    Is this close?
    Somewhat. Although I think you are hinting at something that is called eternal regeneration, which is not Biblical. Eternal regeneration says that there is no time in the life of an elect person that they are not saved. But the Bible clearly says that a saved person was at one time not saved:

    Ephesians 2:4-6

    But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus,
    So although a Christian man was predestined before the beginning of time, salvation is a real experience in the life of a man. A man was once dead and He was made alive purely by God's grace.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Somewhat. Although I think you are hinting at something that is called eternal regeneration, which is not Biblical. Eternal regeneration says that there is no time in the life of an elect person that they are not saved.
    If the elect are all ultimately saved beyond their doings, what difference would time make then?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by otherone View Post
    If the elect are all ultimately saved beyond their doings, what difference would time make then?
    Well, that is the argument of some hyper-calvinist eternal regeneration folks, but the Bible clearly says in several places that salvation in the life of man is a real event. A man was dead in transgressions, and then he is saved.

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