The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter

[Sola_Fide]

In what state do you practice law again? In Tennessee a pardon must be applied for. And judges don't pardon. Governors and presidents do. A judge can sentence you to probation. A judge can sentence you to expungible probation. A judge can give you a suspended sentence. But a judge pardoning? I've never heard of that. But maybe you know more than me. You seem to be sure that you know everything. I'm still waiting for the verse in the Bible that says "Anyone who tries to avoid sin is going to hell."

You're back on this American legal system thing, but what does this have anything to do with the description of salvation in the Bible? It could be the case that the American legal system is one way and the Bible is the complete opposite. So what? Our notion of salvation does not come from the American legal system, it comes from Scripture.

[presence]

Is salvation bequethed by, or obtained from the unspoken?

[Sola_Fide]

Jesus clearly said "If you don't forgive your fellow man then your heavenly Father will not forgive you." How is that "mysterious"? How is that "open to diverse explanations?"

Have you perfectly forgiven every single person in your life and will you continue to perfectly forgive everyone until you die? If not, how do you expect to go to heaven?

[jmdrake]

You're back on this American legal system thing, but what does this have anything to do with the description of salvation in the Bible?

You claimed I was flat out wrong about the legal system. So I'm trying to see if you actually know what you are talking about or if you are just blowing smoke. I think you are just blowing smoke. If you make false claims about the legal system, why should anyone believe your claims about the Bible?

Edit: And I'm still waiting for your verse that says those who try to avoid sin are going to hell. Or are you going to finally admit you just made that up as well?

[Sola_Fide]

You claimed I was flat out wrong about the legal system. So I'm trying to see if you actually know what you are talking about or if you are just blowing smoke. I think you are just blowing smoke. If you make false claims about the legal system, why should anyone believe your claims about the Bible?

Who says I was talking about the American legal system? What if I was talking about the medieval legal system of Europe? Who cares about any legal system at all? Shouldn't we be concerned about what the Bible says?

[presence]

If not, how do you expect to go to heaven?

Action alone is thy province, never the fruits thereof;
let not thy motive be the fruit of action,
nor shouldst thou desire to avoid action.

M K Gandhi

[Sola_Fide]

Edit: And I'm still waiting for your verse that says those who try to avoid sin are going to hell. Or are you going to finally admit you just made that up as well?

Galatians 3:10

For all who rely on the works of the law are under a curse, as it is written: "Cursed is everyone who does not continue to do everything written in the Book of the Law."

There you go. All who rely on doing good and avoiding sin are cursed because the law says you must do everything in it if you are to be saved.

[moostraks]

Thanks. I will keep it in the guidelines this time. I am aiming for civility even if people call my words "vomit".

Proverbs 26:11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit
Is a fool who repeats his folly.

Figured since you profess to be so knowledgeable on the Book that you would have picked up on the well known reference being used. Same old games...No, you are NOT aiming for civility or you would not have fired the shot across the bow with the very first thread you start throwing down against those who disagree on YOUR unique interpretations.

[Sola_Fide]

Proverbs 26:11 Like a dog that returns to its vomit
Is a fool who repeats his folly.

Figured since you profess to be so knowledgeable on the Book that you would have picked up on the well known reference being used. Same old games...No, you are NOT aiming for civility or you would not have fired the shot across the bow with the very first thread you start throwing down against those who disagree on YOUR unique interpretations.

You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to moostraks again.

Please forgive me for my incivility. I forgive you too. I won't respond to any more personal posts so as to keep things on the issues.

[Brett85]

There are some verses in the Bible which seem to point to Calvinism. There are other verses in the Bible which seem to point to Arminianism. The idea that the Bible is 100% clear on which theology is correct is just ridiculous. Christians wouldn't be so divided on this issue throughout the years if the Biblical data were just 100% clear.

[Sola_Fide]

There are some verses in the Bible which seem to point to Calvinism. There are other verses in the Bible which seem to point to Arminianism. The idea that the Bible is 100% clear on which theology is correct is just ridiculous. Christians wouldn't be so divided on this issue throughout the years if the Biblical data were just 100% clear.

I respectfully disagree with that. The Bible is 100% clear on salvation. It is the sinful heart of man that is unclear. The sinful heart of man will do everything to reject the notion that God alone saves.

The sinful heart of man in religion will always think "do, do, do".

But Jesus said "its done".

Salvation is all of God and none of man.

[moostraks]

There you go. All who rely on doing good and avoiding sin are cursed because the law says you must do everything in it if you are to be saved.

Romans 6:. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

[Sola_Fide]

Romans 6:. 8 Now if we died with Christ, we believe that we shall also live with Him, 9 knowing that Christ, having been raised from the dead, dies no more. Death no longer has dominion over Him. 10 For the death that He died, He died to sin once for all; but the life that He lives, He lives to God. 11 Likewise you also, reckon yourselves to be dead indeed to sin, but alive to God in Christ Jesus our Lord.

James 2:26 For as the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without works is dead also.

Why did you quote those verses? What do they have to do with what we were talking about?

[moostraks]

I exclude the possibility because it is a something that doesn't exist. I know that is your unbiblical tradition, but its nowhere in the Bible.

Please forgive me for my incivility. I forgive you too. I won't respond to any more personal posts so as to keep things on the issues.

Again, then stop doing this ^^^ actions speak louder than words. And publicly forgiving someone who is not seeking your forgiveness is tacky and patronizing. You know what you are doing...

[Brett85]

I respectfully disagree with that. The Bible is 100% clear on salvation. It is the sinful heart of man that is unclear. The sinful heart of man will do everything to reject the notion that God alone saves.

Well, thanks for "respectfully disagreeing." I respectfully disagree that the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism has anything to do with whether one is saved or not. I think that John 3: 16 is pretty clear that "whosoever believes in him shall not perish but will receive everlasting life." That includes both Calvinists and Arminians.

[moostraks]

Why did you quote those verses? What do they have to do with what we were talking about?

I respectfully disagree with that. The Bible is 100% clear on salvation. It is the sinful heart of man that is unclear. The sinful heart of man will do everything to reject the notion that God alone saves.

The sinful heart of man in religion will always think "do, do, do".

But Jesus said "its done".

Salvation is all of God and none of man.

Because you need to read them and consider your position of not doing anything and thinking any effort to not live in sin results in damnation.

The belief you attempt to sell others on is dangerous and provides cover for some of the most reprehensible folks that claim to be the elect. It paralyzes new believers who stumble upon it as they will second guess every thought and action and many give up feeling themselves hopelessly damned.

[jmdrake]

There you go. All who rely on doing good and avoiding sin are cursed because the law says you must do everything in it if you are to be saved.

LOL. So now you've changed it from "All who try to avoid sin" to "all who rely on doing good and avoiding sin." Sola, that is not honest debate. Stick with what you originally said.

Edit: Here is an exact quote so that you can't falsely accuse me of putting words in your mouth.

If you live a life trying to avoid sin and trying to do the right thing, you will surely be judged and go to destruction.

If you don't know the difference between "living a life trying to avoid sin and trying to do the right thing" and "All who rely on doing good and avoiding sin" then you really lack the understanding of language needed to have this debate.

[jmdrake]

Who says I was talking about the American legal system? What if I was talking about the medieval legal system of Europe? Who cares about any legal system at all? Shouldn't we be concerned about what the Bible says?

Once again you brought up the legal system! It's dishonest of you to try to put that back on me. In fact your entire debate strategy is dishonesty put on top of logical fallacy. You said you want civil discussion? Well civil discussion begins with honest discussion. It's a matter of character. It is dishonest for you to attempt to use the legal system to make a point, and then when someone shows that the legal system makes the opposite point, for you to turn around and say "Who cares about the legal system?" As for caring about what the Bible says, I do. You don't. At least you don't when the Bible disagrees with you. Anything that doesn't fit your point of view you throw out as "mysterious" and "open to interpretation" even when Jesus Himself gave the clear interpretation. "If you do not forgive your fellow man, God will not forgive you."

[jmdrake]

Have you perfectly forgiven every single person in your life and will you continue to perfectly forgive everyone until you die? If not, how do you expect to go to heaven?

Has God ever brought it to my attention that I have not forgiven someone and I then refused to forgive that person? No. I assume God is doing His job which is both to bring to my attention anyone I need to forgive and to give me the power to forgive. I do not doubt the power of God. I wonder why you do.

[Sola_Fide]

Has God ever brought it to my attention that I have not forgiven someone and I then refused to forgive that person? No. I assume God is doing His job which is both to bring to my attention anyone I need to forgive and to give me the power to forgive. I do not doubt the power of God. I wonder why you do.

Wow. You've forgiven every person that has asked. Did you forgive them perfectly?

[Sola_Fide]

If you don't know the difference between "living a life trying to avoid sin and trying to do the right thing" and "All who rely on doing good and avoiding sin" then you really lack the understanding of language needed to have this debate.

If you live a life trying to avoid sin...or rely on avoiding sin, you will go to Hell forever.

[erowe1]

There you go. All who rely on doing good and avoiding sin are cursed because the law says you must do everything in it if you are to be saved.

Your quote from JM doesn't have the word "rely" in it.

[jmdrake]

Wow. You've forgiven every person that has asked.

Yes. You haven't? Seriously?

Did you forgive them perfectly?

I trust God that I did. It is God that works in us to will and to do His good pleasure. If I rely on Him to flow forgiveness through me, and it is somehow "imperfect" (whatever that is supposed to mean), that's His fault, not mine. What I'm not going to do is when someone asks for forgiveness to say "Well it is impossible for me to forgive you perfectly and so I'm not going to forgive you and it doesn't matter anyway because God has already forgiven me and that forgiveness is unconditional so I don't care what Jesus had to say on the matter."

[jmdrake]

If you live a life trying to avoid sin...or rely on avoiding sin, you will go to Hell forever.

Your quote from JM doesn't have the word "rely" in it.

What erowe1 said. There is a difference between living your life a certain way and relying on that. A man can live his life such that he buys his wife flowers once a week and not rely on that to make sure they always stay married for example.

[Sola_Fide]

I respectfully disagree that the debate between Calvinism and Arminianism has anything to do with whether one is saved or not. I think that John 3: 16 is pretty clear that "whosoever believes in him shall not perish but will receive everlasting life." That includes both Calvinists and Arminians.

I respectfully disagree with that. How many times have either I or erowe1 gone over John 3:16 with you? John 3:16 says the Son was given so that the believing ones would have eternal life. There is particularity in John 3:16. Also, have you ever read the context of John 3:16? It is a judgment passage:

John 3:16-20

For God so loved the world that he gave his one and only Son, that whoever believes in him shall not perish but have eternal life. For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but to save the world through him. Whoever believes in him is not condemned, but whoever does not believe stands condemned already because they have not believed in the name of God’s one and only Son. This is the verdict: Light has come into the world, but people loved darkness instead of light because their deeds were evil.

[Sola_Fide]

Yes. You haven't? Seriously?



I trust God that I did. It is God that works in us to will and to do His good pleasure. If I rely on Him to flow forgiveness through me, and it is somehow "imperfect" (whatever that is supposed to mean), that's His fault, not mine. What I'm not going to do is when someone asks for forgiveness to say "Well it is impossible for me to forgive you perfectly and so I'm not going to forgive you and it doesn't matter anyway because God has already forgiven me and that forgiveness is unconditional so I don't care what Jesus had to say on the matter."

You forgave every person perfectly? You have not the slightest amount of anger at all?

[Sola_Fide]

What erowe1 said. There is a difference between living your life a certain way and relying on that. A man can live his life such that he buys his wife flowers once a week and not rely on that to make sure they always stay married for example.

Well then, why does a Christian strive to live a righteous life? Is his striving in any way responsible for his salvation or the maintenance of his salvation?

[Brett85]

If you live a life trying to avoid sin...or rely on avoiding sin, you will go to Hell forever.

So the way to make it to heaven would be to go out and have sex with prostitutes every night? Interesting.

[Brett85]

I respectfully disagree with that. How many times have either I or erowe1 gone over John 3:16 with you? John 3:16 says the Son was given so that the believing ones would have eternal life. There is particularity in John 3:16. Also, have you ever read the context of John 3:16? It is a judgment passage:

"The believing ones" also include non Calvinists. It includes everyone who believes that Jesus died for our sins and rose again.

[otherone]

Salvation is all of God and none of man.

except.....

If you believe in the Son's perfect life on your behalf, and if you believe in Him ALONE, you will be saved and become a new creature in Him. You will live forever with Him.

so...there IS that...