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Thread: The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter

  1. #211
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Now you are changing what you said. At first you claimed the judgement was only on the religious leaders. That's provably false. But more importantly Jesus longed to "gather their children" but they (the leaders) were not willing. Now, here's the part that totally destroys your argument. They were not willing! Jesus longed for something to happen but His longing was resisted by HUMAN will! Point, set, match.
    No, it doesn't destroy my argument, because God has a revealed will that sinful men are not willing to submit to. This is the difference between God's revealed will (come to me because I command you to) and God's decree (I have decided that My own people will reject me and I will save the Gentiles).



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  3. #212
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I know they believe that . That's what I said in that post. It is an impossibility. God cannot know all things, and those things not come to pass infallibly. Omniscience logically implies predestination. If God knows the future, then the future is a fixed one.
    I thought you said that Arminians deny predestination. Speaking for myself, (Although I'm really not 100% convinced of Arminianism, I just lean towards it) I believe the future is a fixed one. But that doesn't mean that God actually controls us like puppets, causing us to do everything that we do. I think the Bible teaches both predestination and free will, that God is sovereign but also gives us free will. I think it puts God in a box to suggest that the only way he can be sovereign is if he denies free will to his creation.

  4. #213
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    I know they believe that . That's what I said in that post. It is an impossibility. God cannot know all things, and those things not come to pass infallibly. Omniscience logically implies predestination. If God knows the future, then the future is a fixed one.
    I already explained to Gunny why that's not true, but he seems singularly focused on the meaning of the word "then". I'll repeat it here.

    And I don't believe that. What was preordained is the sacrifice for that choice. I once remember you putting your believe in multiverse theory with God only actualizing one universe. But there's no reason why God couldn't actually every possible universe where at least some people are ultimately saved. You still have God's foreknowledge but you also have free will with "choice" determining which part of the multiverse you fall into.

    You are limiting God to 4 dimensions (the three physical dimensions +time). But if there is a multiverse, and I believe there is, then God is the God of it too. So it's no longer a case that the "choice" is predestined by God "foreseeing" it. All choices, within the limit of what God will allow, are foreseen and happen. Now why did I put in the caveat? Because God will not allow a reality where He loses. Herod can't kill baby Jesus in any universe. Satan isn't allowed to kill whoever builds the ark in any universe. Things that would prevent the plan of salvation from being carried out and/or would cause the premature extinction of the human race are not allowed. Beyond that, everything is allowed. Now is that in the Bible? No. But neither is a prophecy about man going to the moon. My point is that the multiverse theory of freewill allows for an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God without God dictating that any particular person or persons are saved or lost. Everybody is saved and everybody is lost, it just depends on the particular universe you are looking at.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  5. #214
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No, it doesn't destroy my argument, because God has a revealed will that sinful men are not willing to submit to. This is the difference between God's revealed will (come to me because I command you to) and God's decree (I have decided that My own people will reject me and I will save the Gentiles).
    There are two wills of God, but not in the way you think. God has a perfect will (I would that all come to me) and a permissive will (I will allow for man to decide not to come to me). In fact your own response destroys your own argument. God has a revealed will that sinful men are not willing to submit to. If God was "appointing" sinful man to not submit then His "revealed will" of wanting them to submit becomes a lie.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  6. #215
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I thought you said that Arminians deny predestination. Speaking for myself, (Although I'm really not 100% convinced of Arminianism, I just lean towards it) I believe the future is a fixed one. But that doesn't mean that God actually controls us like puppets, causing us to do everything that we do. I think the Bible teaches both predestination and free will, that God is sovereign but also gives us free will. I think it puts God in a box to suggest that the only way he can be sovereign is if he denies free will to his creation.
    Right. Fixed meaning "In whatever universe of the multiverse that exists, God always wins. That doesn't mean that everything happens in each universe of the multiverse." That's the conclusion I'm settling on.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  7. #216
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post

    You are limiting God to 4 dimensions (the three physical dimensions +time). But if there is a multiverse, and I believe there is, then God is the God of it too. So it's no longer a case that the "choice" is predestined by God "foreseeing" it. All choices, within the limit of what God will allow, are foreseen and happen. Now why did I put in the caveat? Because God will not allow a reality where He loses. Herod can't kill baby Jesus in any universe. Satan isn't allowed to kill whoever builds the ark in any universe. Things that would prevent the plan of salvation from being carried out and/or would cause the premature extinction of the human race are not allowed. Beyond that, everything is allowed. Now is that in the Bible? No. But neither is a prophecy about man going to the moon. My point is that the multiverse theory of freewill allows for an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God without God dictating that any particular person or persons are saved or lost. Everybody is saved and everybody is lost, it just depends on the particular universe you are looking at.

    This view is called Molinism. It was created by a Catholic priest named Molina during the counter-reformation to attempt to explain predestination in a way that still gave autonomy to man. It is NO WHERE in Scripture, and I mean no where. It is a completely fabricated theory that is shoved in to the text to explain away the verses that teach God's sovereignty over time.



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  9. #217
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    This view is called Molinism. It was created by a Catholic priest named Molina during the counter-reformation to attempt to explain predestination in a way that still gave autonomy to man. It is NO WHERE in Scripture, and I mean no where. It is a completely fabricated theory that is shoved in to the text to explain away the verses that teach God's sovereignty over time.
    Really? So some Catholic priest from the 16th century understood Quantum mechanics before it was invented? Smart man!

    Actually he didn't understand Quantum mechanics and you simply crafted a dishonest straw man as you seem "predestined" to do in these debates. Molin was arguing that God limits his omniscience. I'm arguing the opposite. I'm arguing that not only does God know everything that will happen but almost everything DOES happen. I say almost because some things are not allowed to happen in any universe of the multiverse. So, not only does God know that I will waste time today arguing with someone like you who seems either incapable or unwilling to understand the multiverse and its implications for freewill, but He also knows that in some other universe I'm not wasting time with you, and in some other universe I'm making YouTube videos and writing books on the subject and getting mad rich.

    And for the record, I read about Molinism years ago. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the multiverse.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  10. #218
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Really? So some Catholic priest from the 16th century understood Quantum mechanics before it was invented? Smart man!

    Actually he didn't understand Quantum mechanics and you simply crafted a dishonest straw man as you seem "predestined" to do in these debates. Molin was arguing that God limits his omniscience. I'm arguing the opposite. I'm arguing that not only does God know everything that will happen but almost everything DOES happen. I say almost because some things are not allowed to happen in any universe of the multiverse. So, not only does God know that I will waste time today arguing with someone like you who seems either incapable or unwilling to understand the multiverse and its implications for freewill, but He also knows that in some other universe I'm not wasting time with you, and in some other universe I'm making YouTube videos and writing books on the subject and getting mad rich.

    And for the record, I read about Molinism years ago. It's got absolutely nothing to do with the multiverse.
    Oh ok. Its a multiverse theory then. Where does it say that there is a multiverse in the Bible?

  11. #219
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    This view is called Molinism. It was created by a Catholic priest named Molina during the counter-reformation to attempt to explain predestination in a way that still gave autonomy to man. It is NO WHERE in Scripture, and I mean no where. It is a completely fabricated theory that is shoved in to the text to explain away the verses that teach God's sovereignty over time.
    Speaking of fabricated theories ran into this for those pondering the historical nature of double predestination. Fwiw, to those who might find this response of use on their path:
    Augustine is certainly the major patristic source that Calvin uses, for all topics. For his use of the Fathers in general, he was not particularly invested in finding out what they believed: the witness of Scripture was paramount. He did not take the practice of the Church in that era as normative. In his use of Augustine, Calvin wished to insulate himself against the charge that the Reformation amounted to inventing new doctrine (cf. his preface to the Institutes). So he needed someone respectable who (he could say) read the Bible in the same way as he did. There was also a polemical purpose, since the dependence of the Western theological tradition on Augustine meant that Calvin's "reclaiming" of him was an attack on the scholarly integrity of Catholic teaching.

    From recent textual analysis of Calvin's writing, scholars have tried to guess at which sources he had available. (He, like other contemporary writers, did not provide detailed citations, and frequently reworded or paraphrased his sources. Nonetheless, painstaking analysis of word choices and errors, plus such hints as his occasional references like "on the next page, Basil says ...", has allowed patient people to gain some degree of certainty about specific editions of the books he owned.) Aside from Augustine, his patristic library included three works by Basil, one by Ambrose, the Contra Haereticos of Irenaeus, the Recognitiones of Pseudo-Clement, and the records of the councils of Carthage, Milevis and Orange.1, Introduction This is a significantly smaller collection than was available to his opponents. (He had read more works than these, but did not necessarily possess them and so was not able to consult them in detail when writing.)

    Consequently, almost all of the evidence for his extra-Augustinian reading comes from his responses to critics. For (double) predestination, Albertus Pighius wrote against him in De libero hominis arbitrio et divina gratia (1542), including a full range of references to the Fathers. Calvin's response was in two parts: after only a few months, he published his "On the bondage and liberation of the will" 1, and ten years later "On the eternal predestination of God" 2. The latter work was delayed because after the death of Pighius, Calvin did not consider it an urgent matter to refute him.

    The former work contains very little on predestination to damnation. Almost the only clear reference is the assertion (in Book 3, p183) that Augustine believed that the impious are predestined to death. Although other authors are discussed, there do not seem to be any other points where there is an unambiguous mention of the doctrine, as opposed to statements that are used primarily to support predestination in general. I choose not to count the Hypognosticon, because even though it wasn't written by Augustine, Calvin thought it was. And in any case, it is not from the correct era.

    In the second treatise, I did find something: an extract from Ambrose's sermons on Luke (pp30-31). The following is Calvin's Latin and French, which differ a bit from one another:

    Christus quem miseratur, vocat. Item: si voluisset, ex indevotis fecisset devotus; sed Deus quos dignatur vocat, et quem vult religiosum facit.

    Christ appelle ŕ soy ceux ausquels il veut faire misericorde. Item, S'il eust voulu, il eust bien faict devots ceux qui ne l'estoyent pas, mais Dieu appelle ceux qui luy plaist et donne sa crainte ŕ qui il veut.
    The English meaning is that Christ calls those to whom he wishes to be merciful; he could make the unfaithful faithful if he wanted; but calls (only) those who he finds deserving. This is from Ambrose's Expositio Evangelii secundum Lucam, 1.10 and 7.27 (vol. 15, col. 1527 of Migne's Patrologia Latina). The first quotation is from a comment on Luke 1:3, and the second from the introduction to Luke 9:53ff. However, although this is a work by Ambrose and not Augustine, it was probably known to Calvin because Augustine used it in his De dono perseverantiae 19.49.

    In summary, there is basically nobody among the Fathers, other than Augustine, who can be considered influential on Calvin's doctrine of double predestination. This does not bother him at all: at the beginning of Book 4 of the Defensio, he says:

    How is the true Church to be distinguished from the false? By appeal to the multitude, says Pighius. However, I reckon judgement from the word of God, so that the Church is counted as those who follow Scripture.
    http://christianity.stackexchange.co...ed-john-calvin
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  12. #220
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Oh ok. Its a multiverse theory then. Where does it say that there is a multiverse in the Bible?
    Does the fact the Bible does not discuss the Internet negate the existence of the Internet?
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  13. #221
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Oh ok. Its a multiverse theory then. Where does it say that there is a multiverse in the Bible?
    Sometimes I wonder if you actually read what I post or just respond. From post #216.

    Now is that in the Bible? No. But neither is a prophecy about man going to the moon. My point is that the multiverse theory of freewill allows for an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God without God dictating that any particular person or persons are saved or lost.

    The Bible also doesn't mention black holes but they exist. There's also no mention in the Bible of DNA or subatomic particles or whatnot. My point about the multiverse is that it shows that it is possible for God to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and there still be genuine freewill.

    Edit: And I just want to make this point abundantly clear. You made the claim that it is impossible to truly believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God and not believe that people are saved or lost based on double predestination. I used the multiverse to debunk that particular claim. Since your only response at this point was to either say I was following Molinism (which denies full omnipotence), or that "the multiverse is not in the Bible" (irrelevant to the logical question), I think we can agree that the idea that omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence does not logically require the doctrine of predestination.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 01-28-2015 at 09:38 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  14. #222
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Does the fact the Bible does not discuss the Internet negate the existence of the Internet?
    No but the fact that the Bible does describe the universe negates a multiverse. Also, look at the lengths to which the opponents of the Lord will go to assert man's will over God. They deny His omnipotence, then they deny His omniscience, then if that doesn't work they concoct fanciful theories about multiverses in the attempt to provide some autonomy to man. Why not rather turn to the Lord of Glory who delights to show mercy?

  15. #223
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post

    the multiverse theory of freewill allows for an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God without God dictating that any particular person or persons are saved or lost.
    Right. The theory allows you to keep your fantasy of man's will. But that is not Christianity my friend. God does choose who is saved and lost. The Bible clearly teaches it. Instead of denying it with these fanciful theories, why not turn to the God of the Bible?

  16. #224
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Sometimes I wonder if you actually read what I post or just respond. From post #216.

    Now is that in the Bible? No. But neither is a prophecy about man going to the moon. My point is that the multiverse theory of freewill allows for an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God without God dictating that any particular person or persons are saved or lost.

    The Bible also doesn't mention black holes but they exist. There's also no mention in the Bible of DNA or subatomic particles or whatnot. My point about the multiverse is that it shows that it is possible for God to be omniscient, omnipotent and omnipresent and there still be genuine freewill.

    Edit: And I just want to make this point abundantly clear. You made the claim that it is impossible to truly believe in an omniscient, omnipresent, omnipotent God and not believe that people are saved or lost based on double predestination. I used the multiverse to debunk that particular claim. Since your only response at this point was to either say I was following Molinism (which denies full omnipotence), or that "the multiverse is not in the Bible" (irrelevant to the logical question), I think we can agree that the idea that omniscience, omnipotence and omnipresence does not logically require the doctrine of predestination.
    Notice another thing too.

    ALWAYS be suspicious of anyone who is teaching something in the name of Christianity, but not using any of the concepts or language that the Bible uses in salvation. The Bible uses specific language in regards to describing what salvation is. Never be taken in by people who don't preach how the apostles preached salvation.



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  18. #225
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Right. The theory allows you to keep your fantasy of man's will. But that is not Christianity my friend. God does choose who is saved and lost. The Bible clearly teaches it. Instead of denying it with these fanciful theories, why not turn to the God of the Bible?
    No. The Bible does not "clearly teach" that. The Bible teaches that man has the ability to resist the will of God. That is logically impossible if God is dictating everything man does. In order to believe your doctrine is Biblical you basically turn God into a liar. "Oh I publicly say I want Jerusalem to repent, but secretly I'm forcing Jerusalem not to repent." Now you bolstered your own "fantasy" with a logical claim that has now been disproven. You needed to bolster your fanciful interpretation of the Bible with faulty logic in order to deal with the parts of the Bible that go against your belief system. That's why you say parables where Jesus gives the clear meaning of are "mysterious." Because if you take Jesus at His word on what He said the meaning of His own parables are, then your theology doesn't Biblically line up. Your "freewill is logically impossible" argument backs up your faulty Bible scholarship, and when your logical argument fails you fall back on "But that's not in the Bible."


    There is no chapter and verse in the Bible that says "Since God is omniscient, the only logical conclusion is that double predestination is the truth." You made an extra-biblical "logical" argument and I debunked it using an extra-biblical, logical refutation.

    Point, set, match.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  19. #226
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Right. The theory allows you to keep your fantasy of man's will. But that is not Christianity my friend. God does choose who is saved and lost. The Bible clearly teaches it. Instead of denying it with these fanciful theories, why not turn to the God of the Bible?
    God chooses us, and we also choose God. It's like if a husband and wife get married, it's not the case that the husband chose the wife and the wife didn't choose the husband, or that the wife chose the husband but the husband didn't choose the wife. Obviously it's the case that they chose each other. It's also the case that it isn't that God chooses us and we don't choose God, or that we choose God and he doesn't choose us, but that we choose each other. We both choose to have a relationship with each other.

  20. #227
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Notice another thing too.

    ALWAYS be suspicious of anyone who is teaching something in the name of Christianity, but not using any of the concepts or language that the Bible uses in salvation. The Bible uses specific language in regards to describing what salvation is. Never be taken in by people who don't preach how the apostles preached salvation.
    And where does the Bible say that those who believe in freewill deny the sovereignty of God? Oh yeah THE BIBLE NEVER SAYS THAT! Once again SF, you condemn yourself.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  21. #228
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    No. The Bible does not "clearly teach" that. The Bible teaches that man has the ability to resist the will of God. That is logically impossible if God is dictating everything man does.
    Man always resist the revealed will of God. But it is impossible that anything happen apart from God's decree. Not only is there no contradiction, this very clear in Scripture.

  22. #229
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Man always resist the revealed will of God. But it is impossible that anything happen apart from God's decree. Not only is there no contradiction, this very clear in Scripture.
    There is a difference between saying "Man can only do what God allows him to do" and "Man only does what God directs him to do." The former is Biblical. The latter is not. The former shows a loving God. The latter shows a dishonest tyrant.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  23. #230
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    There is a difference between saying "Man can only do what God allows him to do" and "Man only does what God directs him to do." The former is Biblical. The latter is not. The former shows a loving God. The latter shows a dishonest tyrant.
    I really think the people who describe the God of the Bible as a "tyrant" are going to have an awkward moment when they get to the gates of heaven if they do in fact get there...
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  24. #231
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    There is a difference between saying "Man can only do what God allows him to do" and "Man only does what God directs him to do." The former is Biblical. The latter is not. The former shows a loving God. The latter shows a dishonest tyrant.
    Well, this is just more autobiographical of your feelings and not anything like an argument from Scripture. Proverbs 16:9 says, "The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps". There you go. Directly contradicting what you say here. Why not just turn to the Lord, be converted, and give Him all the glory when He saves you?

  25. #232
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No but the fact that the Bible does describe the universe negates a multiverse. Also, look at the lengths to which the opponents of the Lord will go to assert man's will over God. They deny His omnipotence, then they deny His omniscience, then if that doesn't work they concoct fanciful theories about multiverses in the attempt to provide some autonomy to man. Why not rather turn to the Lord of Glory who delights to show mercy?
    Concocted fanciful theories are those that negate His Love in preference for an arrogant philosophy which reared its head thanks to Calvin. It does allow the believer of double predestination to place themselves on a pedestal and glare down their noses at others who disagree with its inventiveness. Then they can write off savages who were created for destruction by the genetically superior believer because they have an inferior belief system and were created for the single purpose to be destroyed and glorify the elect.

    Nope, there is plenty not contained in the Book. Just 'cause it ain't in there doesn't negate its possibility. The Book is a good resource but it isn't the totality of Faith.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle



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  27. #233
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Why not just turn to the Lord, be converted, and give Him all the glory when He saves you?
    This is why your discussions are not civil. You place your views above others and speak down to them declaring them to be without Faith.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  28. #234
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Concocted fanciful theories are those that negate His Love in preference for an arrogant philosophy which reared its head thanks to Calvin. It does allow the believer of double predestination to place themselves on a pedestal and glare down their noses at others who disagree with its inventiveness. Then they can write off savages who were created for destruction by the genetically superior believer because they have an inferior belief system and were created for the single purpose to be destroyed and glorify the elect.

    Nope, there is plenty not contained in the Book. Just 'cause it ain't in there doesn't negate its possibility. The Book is a good resource but it isn't the totality of Faith.
    Who is talking about Calvin in this thread? Only you. I'll repost what Peter, an apostle, wrote concerning the salvation of men:

    “Because of this, it is also contained in the Scripture: “Behold,” I lay in Zion” an elect, “precious Stone,” “a Corner-foundation;” “and the one believing in Him shall not be ashamed, never!” Then to you who believe belongs the preciousness. But to disobeying ones, He is the “Stone which those building rejected; this One became the Head of the Corner,” and a Stone-of-stumbling, and a Rock-of-offense” to the ones stumbling, being disobedient to the Word, to which they were also appointed. But you are “an elect race,” “a royal priesthood,” “a holy nation,” “a people for possession,” so that “you may openly speak of the virtues” of the One who has called you out of darkness into His marvelous light; you who then were “not a people, but now are the people” of God; “the one not pitied then but now pitied”.

    1 Peter 2:6-10
    Note that in this verse, Peter is paraphrasing and quoting Old Testament prophecies. The elect and the disobedients appointing are so sure that prophecy has foretold it.

  29. #235
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    No but the fact that the Bible does describe the universe negates a multiverse.
    Seems to me the Bible talks a lot about the world, but I don't recall it mentioning the New World. Yet there you are in Indiana. Have you drowned yet? Are you denying that God has the right to tell us only as much as He wanted us to know at the time? Does the fact that He does so mean we're automatically sinning if we discover more than that? Is that true of children who discover things their fathers never taught them, or is this the case only where it's something The Father chose not to mention?

    Is that Biblical? Can you back it up? Can you cite a source for Thou Shalt Not Discover?

    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Point, set, match.
    Good luck with that. You're up to eighty love or so, but he keeps swinging at your balls anyway. And missing.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I really think the people who describe the God of the Bible as a "tyrant" are going to have an awkward moment when they get to the gates of heaven if they do in fact get there...
    Who's going to have an awkward moment--Galileo for having the audacity to discover something God did't send down the mountain with Moses, carved in stone, or the tyrants-in-God's-Name who barbequed him for it?

    Or are you denying a loving Father the right to let His children figure some things out for themselves?
    Last edited by acptulsa; 01-28-2015 at 10:40 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    You only want the freedoms that will undermine the nation and lead to the destruction of liberty.

  30. #236
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Well, this is just more autobiographical of your feelings and not anything like an argument from Scripture. Proverbs 16:9 says, "The mind of man plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps". There you go. Directly contradicting what you say here. Why not just turn to the Lord, be converted, and give Him all the glory when He saves you?
    How is that any different from saying "Man only does what God allows him to do?" You don't believe that man "plans his way". You've contradicted yourself again. You are also contradicting Jesus if you believe that sin is not sin until a man acts on it when Jesus clearly taught that sin becomes sin when it originates in the mind. Check out Jesus' teaching on adultery and murder if you don't believe me. Also consider the case of Balaam. He planned to go curse God's people (a sin itself) and God stopped him...at least temporarily. Balaam was ultimately able to bring a curse upon God's people by tempting them to sin.

    So...just to be perfectly clear, I never used the word "steps". I'm talking about directing man's mind. Your own Bible verse proves I'm right. Point, set, match.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  31. #237
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    How is that any different from saying "Man only does what God allows him to do?" You don't believe that man "plans his way". You've contradicted yourself again. You are also contradicting Jesus if you believe that sin is not sin until a man acts on it when Jesus clearly taught that sin becomes sin when it originates in the mind. Check out Jesus' teaching on adultery and murder if you don't believe me. Also consider the case of Balaam. He planned to go curse God's people (a sin itself) and God stopped him...at least temporarily. Balaam was ultimately able to bring a curse upon God's people by tempting them to sin.

    So...just to be perfectly clear, I never used the word "steps". I'm talking about directing man's mind. Your own Bible verse proves I'm right. Point, set, match.
    Point, set, flop. Here you go again with one of your conjured up "contradictions" because you are going to presume to tell me what I believe. You obviously are confused about what I believe. I believe the Bible. The Bible says man plans his way, but the Lord directs his steps. God has a sovereign purpose for all of man's plans.

    Why don't you believe this?

  32. #238
    I'm holding out for at least triple predestination, at the very minimum.

  33. #239
    Quote Originally Posted by Sola_Fide View Post
    Who is talking about Calvin in this thread? Only you. I'll repost what Peter, an apostle, wrote concerning the salvation of men:



    Note that in this verse, Peter is paraphrasing and quoting Old Testament prophecies. The elect and the disobedients appointing are so sure that prophecy has foretold it.
    Your thread is on double predestination which is a theory popularized by Calvin based upon his beliefs of Augustine's writings. It is a loveless theory foisted upon others so that critics can be treated as inferior by the elect who fancy themselves made with superior genetics. Note, you can continue to repost the verses and reiterate your opinions but it won't make them any more valid for doing so.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  34. #240
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Your thread is on double predestination which is a theory popularized by Calvin based upon his beliefs of Augustine's writings. It is a loveless theory foisted upon others so that critics can be treated as inferior by the elect who fancy themselves made with superior genetics. Note, you can continue to repost the verses and reiterate your opinions but it won't make them any more valid for doing so.
    Here we go with Calvin again. What is it with you and John Calvin? Who in this entire message board is talking about John Calvin except you?

    Peter said about the disobedient ones:
    But to disobeying ones, He is the “Stone which those building rejected; this One became the Head of the Corner,” and a Stone-of-stumbling, and a Rock-of-offense” to the ones stumbling, being disobedient to the Word, to which they were also appointed.
    We aren't talking about John Calvin. We are talking about the Bible when it says that the disobedient ones are appointed to their destruction. Why don't you believe the Bible?



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