The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter

[erowe1]

Why are you guys so concerned about what other people have done?

Did you accidentally quote the wrong person?

I don't see how your question relates to what I said.

[otherone]

Did you accidentally quote the wrong person?

I don't see how your question relates to what I said.

Quote Originally Posted by erowe1
Is that so strange a thing to think, given the fact that nobody has yet succeeded at doing any of those things?

Why should that concern you? You are responsible for you, not others.

[erowe1]

Why should that concern you? You are responsible for you, not others.

I still don't understand your question.

You see that I was asking a question. Right? And that my question was in response to someone else's rhetorical question, which said that the accomplishments listed were not a burden.

I never said anything about anything being anyone's responsibility. Nor did I say anything about being concerned about anything.

[otherone]

I still don't understand your question.

You see that I was asking a question. Right? And that my question was in response to someone else's rhetorical question, which said that the accomplishments listed were not a burden.

I never said anything about anything being anyone's responsibility. Nor did I say anything about being concerned about anything.

You proclaimed that: "fact that nobody has yet succeeded at doing any of those things" despite
a) having no way of actually knowing this fact and
b) whether or not you BELIEVE that others have failed, in what way should others failure influence your attempt at compliance?

[erowe1]

You proclaimed that: "fact that nobody has yet succeeded at doing any of those things" despite
a) having no way of actually knowing this fact and
b) whether or not you BELIEVE that others have failed, in what way should others failure influence your attempt at compliance?

The fact is irrefutable, since poor and hungry people still exist. Do you need a source to show that they do?

[otherone]

The fact is irrefutable, since poor and hungry people still exist. Do you need a source to show that they do?

You are saying that because there are poor and hungry people, that no one has fed or clothed poor and hungry people? How could we possibly help people if there were none to help?
Eating a ham sandwich doesn't rid the world of ham sandwiches.

[erowe1]

You are saying that because there are poor and hungry people, that no one has fed or clothed poor and hungry people? How could we possibly help people if there were none to help?
Eating a ham sandwich doesn't rid the world of ham sandwiches.

If there were none to help, then it wouldn't be an issue. In that case, people could say that there did not exist hungry people whom they failed to feed.

But as it is, nobody can say that. All people must confess that there exist hungry people they failed to feed. And judged by the standard of Matthew 25 (if we apply it as a general test for salvation the way Acptulsa does--for the record I don't, but I only give this in light of accepting his application of the passage for the sake of argument), all people fail.

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”

Is there a hungry person that I haven't fed? Then I meet that criterion of being bound for Hell.

Is that criterion a heavy burden? I should say so.

Has anyone ever not met it? Apparently not.

In the context of this conversation, it was SF's claim that the burden was heavy that some found objectionable. But reality supports his claim.

[otherone]

If there were none to help, then it wouldn't be an issue. In that case, people could say that there did not exist hungry people whom they failed to feed.

But as it is, nobody can say that. All people must confess that there exist hungry people they failed to feed. And judged by the standard of Matthew 25 (if we apply it as a general test for salvation the way Acptulsa does--for the record I don't, but I only give this in light of accepting his application of the passage for the sake of argument), all people fail.

Again, why are you people so hung up on salvation? We aren't supposed to love because of a reward. That isn't love. Does confessing that you haven't ended hunger in the world absolve you from the command to love others? To help those you can? Is it possible in your worldview to believe that there are those who help others with no expectation of salvation?

[Sola_Fide]

The Pharisees elevated themselves and placed their beliefs above Love and made sure that everyone was aware of their accomplishments. Their interests were self serving yet they professed concern for others by dripping insincere statements and burdened others with their false philosophy that shut people out from having a relationship with the Creator. The unwitting professed them to be wise and sincere, and were made twice the child of hell of the Pharisee.

Being genetically shut out from the kingdom of heaven is a massive burden to heap upon the souls of other seekers. When the seekers turn their backs at the knock they thought they heard but question due to erroneous teachings which proclaim them to be pots destined for destruction before they even turned the knob, it is the Pharisee who came as a sheep which was their undoing and caused their foolish hearts to be darkened.

But that is not anything like the verse you quoted. The verse you quoted says (and I will bold the "weird parts" for you:

Matthew 23:2 “The scribes and the Pharisees sit on Moses' seat, 3 so do and observe whatever they tell you, but not the works they do. For they preach, but do not practice. 4 They tie up heavy burdens, hard to bear, and lay them on people's shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to move them with their finger. 5 They do all their deeds to be seen by others..

So the Pharisees were preaching that man's efforts through good deeds were the way to heaven, but they themselves were not doing good deeds. They were law-breakers as much as anyone else. This is why they were hypocrites. Paul echoes this sentiment in Romans 2 when he was condemning the Jews as sinners and law-breakers:

3 So when you, a mere human being, pass judgment on them and yet do the same things, do you think you will escape God’s judgment?

So when people like yourself (no disrespect intended) attempt to teach people that something they do gets them in to heaven, you are foisting a heavy burden on them. The reason it is heavy is because man cannot do enough good deeds to be righteous in the sight of God. You make them "twice the sons of Hell" that you are, as Jesus said.

For a man to be righteous, he must have a perfect righteousness. That perfect righteousness is Christ ALONE. The one who trusts in Christ's righteousness ALONE will be able to stand before God blameless on the last day.

[otherone]

In the context of this conversation, it was SF's claim that the burden was heavy that some found objectionable. But reality supports his claim.

Right. Because the LAW that he finds so burdensome is to LOVE. I find that objectionable.

[erowe1]

Right. Because the LAW that he finds so burdensome is to LOVE. I find that objectionable.

Can you quote him saying that?

Or is this another case of charging him with something that can't be gotten from his own words?

[Sola_Fide]

Right. Because the LAW that he finds so burdensome is to LOVE. I find that objectionable.

You haven't loved God or your fellow man enough. By your own standard you condemn yourself.

Why would you want to be judged based on your imperfect and sinful works of love? Why not trust ALONE in Jesus' perfect acts of love?

[moostraks]

If you can't show how he is using his own words, then wouldn't it be better and more honest on your part to interact with what he actually does say?

The fact that you cannot comprehend his words ill effect does not negate the existence of the harm of his philosophy. But again, what concern is it of yours to see the detriment of his words when you are not a member of the harmed and benefit from his deceptions?

[erowe1]

Again, why are you people so hung up on salvation?

That was the context of the discussion. I wasn't the one who brought it up.

We aren't supposed to love because of a reward. That isn't love.

I'm glad you think that.

Does confessing that you haven't ended hunger in the world absolve you from the command to love others?

No. Nor is there any possible way you can construe anything I've said in this thread to imply that it does.

Is it possible in your worldview to believe that there are those who help others with no expectation of salvation?

Yes. If you want to change the subject to be about that, I'm game. But where I entered the thread, that's not what was being talked about. I was only interacting with the topic of the conversation that was ongoing at that point.

[erowe1]

The fact that you cannot comprehend his words ill effect does not negate the existence of the harm of his philosophy.

The fact that you can't present his actual words and show what's wrong with them, and how they imply what you pretend they do, does negate any substance to your charge.

You're concerned about use of harmful words. Shouldn't being honest in your own use of words be a part of that?

[otherone]

Can you quote him saying that?

Or is this another case of charging him with something that can't be gotten from his own words?

Right. The Pharisees put the burden of working the law on the people when they themselves were lawbreakers. All the people here who say that man's efforts are the cause of salvation are putting heavy burdens on man. "Christianity" today is full of modern-day Pharisees.

What is OT law vs. NT law? What notions of "salvation" did the Pharisees have?
Did the Pharisees enforce the law because they loved God? Or because they loved their brothers?
Without love, the law is nothing. This was Christ's NEW law. Love IS the law. Is love a burden?

[erowe1]

Can you quote him saying that?

Right. The Pharisees put the burden of working the law on the people when they themselves were lawbreakers. All the people here who say that man's efforts are the cause of salvation are putting heavy burdens on man. "Christianity" today is full of modern-day Pharisees.

What is OT law vs. NT law? What notions of "salvation" did the Pharisees have?
Did the Pharisees enforce the law because they loved God? Or because they loved their brothers?
Without love, the law is nothing. This was Christ's NEW law. Love IS the law. Is love a burden?

Gotcha.

So that's a "No."

[Sola_Fide]

We aren't supposed to love because of a reward. That isn't love. Is it possible in your worldview to believe that there are those who help others with no expectation of salvation?

Yes, every Christian agrees. I've told you this 3 times already. No Christian loves God and his brother because of an expectation of a reward. He already has his reward. It was free.

[otherone]

Gotcha.

So that's a "No."

Ok. In the NT, What is the "law"?

[moostraks]

But that is not anything like the verse you quoted. The verse you quoted says (and I will bold the "weird parts" for you:


So the Pharisees were preaching that man's efforts through good deeds were the way to heaven, but they themselves were not doing good deeds. They were law-breakers as much as anyone else. This is why they were hypocrites. Paul echoes this sentiment in Romans 2 when he was condemning the Jews as sinners and law-breakers:



So when people like yourself (no disrespect intended) attempt to teach people that something they do gets them in to heaven, you are foisting a heavy burden on them. The reason it is heavy is because man cannot do enough good deeds to be righteous in the sight of God. You make them "twice the sons of Hell" that you are, as Jesus said.

For a man to be righteous, he must have a perfect righteousness. That perfect righteousness is Christ ALONE. The one who trusts in Christ's righteousness ALONE will be able to stand before God blameless on the last day.

Let me type this slowly for you...I am applying the verse to YOU in the context of your behavior. You claim a faith of love but shut others out according to your philosophy because they are genetically inferior to your elect status. You crow about your thread count as the Pharisee with tasseled frock.

No do NOT preach to me about what I am telling them to do. I am not the one passing judgement upon others walk of Faith nor making demands of them. If I share my faith it is to allow others to know that each and every one has the Light of Love within them. No one is made genetically inferior to another. It is up to each person to respond to the knock they receive on the door of their hearts.

You only believe in the individual right of interpretation when the interpretation mimcs your own as your idol is the very specialness of your self proclaimed chosen status with no need to listen to the voice of the Master who told you how the sheep and goats shall be separated. You pick and choose which verses you will acknowledge pertain to you.

[otherone]

You haven't loved God or your fellow man enough. By your own standard you condemn yourself.

Why would you want to be judged based on your imperfect and sinful works of love? Why not trust ALONE in Jesus' perfect acts of love?

a) worry about yourself, not what I've done. And no, I haven't condemned myself, by your OWN words, I don't have that power.
b) I have NO CONTROL over how I am judged, so WHAT DOES IT MATTER?

[moostraks]

You haven't loved God or your fellow man enough. By your own standard you condemn yourself.

Why would you want to be judged based on your imperfect and sinful works of love? Why not trust ALONE in Jesus' perfect acts of love?

Matthew 25:The Son of Man Will Judge the Nations
31 “When the Son of Man comes in His glory, and all the holy[c] angels with Him, then He will sit on the throne of His glory. 32 All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, ‘Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.’

37 “Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?’ 40 And the King will answer and say to them, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.’

41 “Then He will also say to those on the left hand, ‘Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.’

44 “Then they also will answer Him,[d] saying, ‘Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?’ 45 Then He will answer them, saying, ‘Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.’ 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.”


SF can keep making his own rules up as if he is a god but this^^^ is what separates us in the end. SF can prattle on all he wants about his special status but what matters is whether we loved.

I John 4:7Beloved, let us love one another, for love is from God; and everyone who loves is born of God and knows God. 8The one who does not love does not know God, for God is love. 9By this the love of God was manifested in us, that God has sent His only begotten Son into the world so that we might live through Him. 10In this is love, not that we loved God, but that He loved us and sent His Son to be the propitiation for our sins. 11Beloved, if God so loved us, we also ought to love one another. 12No one has seen God at any time; if we love one another, God abides in us, and His love is perfected in us. 13By this we know that we abide in Him and He in us, because He has given us of His Spirit. 14We have seen and testify that the Father has sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

15Whoever confesses that Jesus is the Son of God, God abides in him, and he in God. 16We have come to know and have believed the love which God has for us. God is love, and the one who abides in love abides in God, and God abides in him. 17By this, love is perfected with us, so that we may have confidence in the day of judgment; because as He is, so also are we in this world. 18There is no fear in love; but perfect love casts out fear, because fear involves punishment, and the one who fears is not perfected in love. 19We love, because He first loved us. 20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen. 21And this commandment we have from Him, that the one who loves God should love his brother also.

[Sola_Fide]

Let me type this slowly for you...I am applying the verse to YOU in the context of your behavior. You claim a faith of love but shut others out according to your philosophy because they are genetically inferior to your elect status.

So according to you, when Paul was defining the gospel in Galatians 5 (like I am trying to do on this board), he was "shutting people out because of his behavior", right? He said:

4 You who are trying to be justified by the law have been alienated from Christ; you have fallen away from grace.

So when he defined the gospel in chapters 3 and 5, and then condemned others for trying to pervert it, was he "shutting people out"? Was Jesus "shutting" the Pahrisees out when he condemned their perverted theology?

[moostraks]

So according to you, when Paul was defining the gospel in Galatians 5 (like I am trying to do on this board), he was "shutting people out because of his behavior", right? He said:



So when he defined the gospel in chapters 3 and 5, and then condemned others for trying to pervert it, was he "shutting people out"? Was Jesus "shutting" the Pahrisees out when he condemned their perverted theology?

Dude, you are no Paul. You go to extraordinary ends to shut people off from doing acts of love by claiming their acts are acts of law. You need to stop sitting in the judgement seat because the Master has the seat filled.

He knows the heart, you don't. I have wasted years of my time on this sub forum explaining how acts of Love work and that it is not me but Christ who lives in me that does the work He will judge as good or condemns the work that is not of the Spirit. You then spend an inordinate amount of time making claims of what you say I believe no matter how erroneous the claims are and then pat yourself on the back for outing me as condemned. Your attitude towards your neighbor is repulsive. It is the reason why I bother to continue to respond to your nonsense because I know how damaging your attitude is to those whose faith has been damaged by it.

This isn't your church and you have no authority to pass judgement on my faith.

[RJB]

you were 400 shy of 4000 when you made the comment, today you had not yet hit 5000, but you have no problem inflating your numbers like any good politician does...

I think it's a cry for your attention, Moostraks.

Although I gotta say, that is an interesting way to get noticed. Most people pray, find the love of their lives, or even get a cat. Whatever gets one by, I guess.

[otherone]

Although I gotta say, that is an interesting way to get noticed. Most people pray, find the love of their lives, or even get a cat.

Should Sola get a cat?

[Sola_Fide]

I think it's a cry for your attention, Moostraks.

Although I gotta say, that is an interesting way to get noticed. Most people pray, find the love of their lives, or even get a cat. Whatever gets one by, I guess.

I don't want attention. I do however know that people out there want answers from the Bible about their lives. People have a yearning to know what is truth. And the view counts from these threads confirm that this is an interesting area of discussion.

[moostraks]

I think it's a cry for your attention, Moostraks.

Although I gotta say, that is an interesting way to get noticed. Most people pray, find the love of their lives, or even get a cat. Whatever gets one by, I guess.

I feel screwed. For one I don't want rep this way as I feel as though I am allowing myself to be manipulated as well as the rep. I feel as though I am being antagonized to shut up as I am increasing thread/response count. It is smarmy gloating. Yet, if no one responds, if I as new poster wandered in here to see what the spiritual values are of the RPF folks, I would wander right back off the whole forum. I posted these so some other folks can see just what type of a game is being played behind the scenes. Bunch of childishness...just like the old threads which are being bumped to yank chains.

[Sola_Fide]

I feel screwed. For one I don't want rep this way as I feel as though I am allowing myself to be manipulated as well as the rep. I feel as though I am being antagonized to shut up as I am increasing thread/response count. It is smarmy gloating. Yet, if no one responds, if I as new poster wandered in here to see what the spiritual values are of the RPF folks, I would wander right back off the whole forum. I posted these so some other folks can see just what type of a game is being played behind the scenes. Bunch of childishness...just like the old threads which are being bumped to yank chains.

I posted that to you because I wanted to remind you of how interesting people thought these threads were. You find them interesting or else you wouldn't post here. You have an interest in knowing what the truth is, and I commend you for that.

[moostraks]

I don't want attention. I do however know that people out there want answers from the Bible about their lives. People have a yearning to know what is truth. And the view counts from these threads confirm that this is an interesting area of discussion.

Riiiigghhhttt! It has nothing to do with you making people repeat themselves or your posting antagonistic nonsense about the validity of their faith for which they feel the responsibility to respond.