The Doctrine of Double Predestination in Peter

[acptulsa]

Back to the OP (when it says that the elect were appointed as well as the disobedient ones), remember that the word "appointed" is also used in other places to denote prededtination:



Notice that it is the appointment to eternal life that is the reason the Gentiles believed. There were some comments in this thread that said "appointment" could mean something other than predestination, but it is clear from other places in the Bible that "appointment" does mean predestination.

Using the New Calvinist Apologencia again?

45 But when the Jews saw the multitudes, they were filled with envy, and spake against those things which were spoken by Paul, contradicting and blaspheming . 46 Then Paul and Barnabas waxed bold , and said , It was necessary that the word of God should first have been spoken to you: but seeing ye put it from you , and judge yourselves unworthy of everlasting life, lo , we turn to the Gentiles. 47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth. 48 And when the Gentiles heard this , they were glad , and glorified the word of the Lord: and as many as were ordained to eternal life believed . 49 And the word of the Lord was published throughout all the region.

I could have sworn the English language differentiated between 'ordained' and 'preordained'...

[Sola_Fide]

Using the New Calvinist Apologencia again?



I could have sworn the English language differentiated between 'ordained' and 'preordained'...

There is no difference. Also, note that the reason they believed was because of the appointment.

[acptulsa]

There is no difference.

Also, note that the reason they believed was because of the appointment.

[Sola_Fide]

God is an eternal being. There can't be conditionality or temporality to anything He does. He knows the end from the beginning and has purposed everything from the end to the beginning.

[acptulsa]

God is an eternal being.

I've read that before--in a reliable source, too.

There can't be conditionality or temporality to anything He does.

I haven't read that anywhere reliable, and it certainly doesn't logically follow from immortality.

He knows the end from the beginning...

Surely seems to.

...and has purposed everything from the end to the beginning.

I don't believe you.

Are you still afraid to tackle these two? Do you avoid them because Jesus said them and you'd have to call Him a liar, or because you're afraid of being called a false prophet?

12But when Jesus heard that, he said unto them, They that be whole need not a physician, but they that are sick.

13 But go ye and learn what that meaneth, I will have mercy, and not sacrifice: for I am not come to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

Are you ever going to tell us where the 'believes in preordination' and 'doesn't believe in preordination' groups are in this prophesy?

31 When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:

32 And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats:

33 And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left.

34 Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world:

35 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me drink: I was a stranger, and ye took me in:

36 Naked, and ye clothed me: I was sick, and ye visited me: I was in prison, and ye came unto me.

37 Then shall the righteous answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, and fed thee? or thirsty, and gave thee drink?

38 When saw we thee a stranger, and took thee in? or naked, and clothed thee?

39 Or when saw we thee sick, or in prison, and came unto thee?

40 And the King shall answer and say unto them, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye have done it unto one of the least of these my brethren, ye have done it unto me.

41 Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:

42 For I was an hungred, and ye gave me no meat: I was thirsty, and ye gave me no drink:

43 I was a stranger, and ye took me not in: naked, and ye clothed me not: sick, and in prison, and ye visited me not.

44 Then shall they also answer him, saying, Lord, when saw we thee an hungred, or athirst, or a stranger, or naked, or sick, or in prison, and did not minister unto thee?

45 Then shall he answer them, saying, Verily I say unto you, Inasmuch as ye did it not to one of the least of these, ye did it not to me.

46 And these shall go away into everlasting punishment: but the righteous into life eternal.

[Sola_Fide]

(I'll answer your post acptulsa, but I do want to note that it is always the sovereign grace believers on the board who always attempt to perform exegesis on verses that are offered here. With the exception of TC, I don't see any of the others trying to exegete verses. With almost 500 posts in this thread, not one person has exegeted the verse in the op.)

Let's take Matthew 12. Why did you post that verse as if it something I would disagree with? What do you think that verse is saying.

I don't want any insults or snappy one liners. Just briefly explain to me what you think it means.

[acptulsa]

(I'll answer your post acptulsa, but I do want to note that it is always the sovereign grace believers on the board who always attempt to perform exegesis on verses that are offered here. With the exception of TC, I don't see any of the others trying to exegete verses. With almost 500 posts in this thread, not one person has exegeted the verse in the op.)

Thank God I'm a Presbyterian. We just have to read verses and try to understand them. We don't have to dissect them, scramble the pieces, and try to sew them back together again.

And you're the one who refuses to address the exegesis where I asked you how those people were, as mentioned in Verse 10, predestined to both Heaven and Hell.

Let's take Matthew 12. Why did you post that verse as if it something I would disagree with? What do you think that verse is saying.

I don't want any insults or snappy one liners. Just briefly explain to me what you think it means.

Your exegesis is asking me for my exegesis?

Oh, no. I'm not taking questions as answers to my questions. Either stuff Jesus' words into your mold or call Him a liar. I have no intention of helping you do either.

You've proven your prowess at reading things into Romans that aren't there. Let's see why you're avoiding Matthew like the plague.

[Sola_Fide]

Thank God I'm a Presbyterian. We just have to read verses and try to understand them. We don't have to dissect them, scramble the pieces, and try to sew them back together again.

And you're the one who refuses to address the exegesis where I asked you how those people were, as mentioned in Verse 10, predestined to both Heaven and Hell.



Your exegesis is asking me for my exegesis?

Oh, no. I'm not taking questions as answers to my questions. Either stuff Jesus' words into your mold or call Him a liar. I have no intention of helping you do either.

You've proven your prowess at reading things into Romans that aren't there. Let's see why you're avoiding Matthew like the plague.

What? I'm not avoiding any verse. I'm asking you why you posted the verse in Matthew 12 as if you think it would disagree with what I believe? What are your thoughts on that verse.

Do I have to beg for your thoughts on that verse? Ok. Please?

[acptulsa]

You don't want to perform exegesis on the verses, you want to perform exegesis on me.

Tell you what. Tell me where the 'believes in preordination' and 'doesn't believe in preordination' groups are in the quoted prophesy from Matthew 25 and I might be willing to play.

[RJB]

Thank God I'm a Presbyterian.

Sorry, a bit off topic, but I thought Presbyterians were Calvinist/Reformed leaning folks?

[Sola_Fide]

Sorry, a bit off topic, but I thought Presbyterians were Calvinist/Reformed leaning folks?

Nah. Most Presbyterian churches are country clubs or day care centers where the Bible isn't preached anymore. Much like many other "Protestant" denominations nowadays.

[acptulsa]

Nah. Most Presbyterian churches are country clubs or day care centers where the Bible isn't preached anymore. Much like many other "Protestant" denominations nowadays.

Flattery won't get you out of it.

[Sola_Fide]

Flattery won't get you out of it.

What did your Presbyterian Church tell you about Matthew 25?

[acptulsa]

What did your Presbyterian Church tell you about Matthew 25?

Nothing that can only be true if Jesus lied.

[Sola_Fide]

Nothing that can only be true if Jesus lied.

So...just another snappy one liner. But this is a discussion, right? It's a give and take exchage. So why don't you provide some discussion about it. Or at least tell me how you think Jesus in Matthew 25 would disagree with anything I believe.

[acptulsa]

So...just another snappy one liner. But this is a discussion, right? It's a give and take exchage. So why don't you provide some discussion about it. Or at least tell me how you think Jesus in Matthew 25 would disagree with anything I believe.

In a give and take exchange, you'd have told me where the 'believes in preordination' and 'doesn't believe in preordination' groups are in Jesus' prophesy years ago.

Don't try to pretend I have no reason to be tired of waiting for you to give.

[Christian Liberty]

Nah. Most Presbyterian churches are country clubs or day care centers where the Bible isn't preached anymore. Much like many other "Protestant" denominations nowadays.

I'm guessing that depends on the Presbyterian denomination. From what I understand the OPC and PCA are both a lot better than the PCUSA.

[acptulsa]

I'm guessing that depends on the Presbyterian denomination. From what I understand the OPC and PCA are both a lot better than the PCUSA.

By 'better' do you mean 'less likely to call Jesus a liar' or 'more likely to call Jesus a liar'?

[Christian Liberty]

By 'better' do you mean 'less likely to call Jesus a liar' or 'more likely to call Jesus a liar'?

The PCUSA is more liberal.

[Sola_Fide]

In a give and take exchange, you'd have told me where the 'believes in preordination' and 'doesn't believe in preordination' groups are in Jesus' prophesy years ago.

Don't try to pretend I have no reason to be tired of waiting for you to give.

So...no commentary on the verse or anything coming from you. Ok I get it. I'll just take this as you not wanting to really discuss anything.. Cool.


Here I'll give you something about the verse that you've probably never thought of. Verse 40:

The King will reply, 'Truly I tell you, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers and sisters of mine, you did for me.'

Jesus is concerned about how believers treat other believers here.

Have you ever considered this?

[GunnyFreedom]

By 'better' do you mean 'less likely to call Jesus a liar' or 'more likely to call Jesus a liar'?

No, he's right. PCUSA is left wingnut batshirt crazy. PCUSA recently launched an effort to remove Israel from the Bible, for example.

[acptulsa]

So...no commentary on the verse or anything coming from you. Ok I get it. I'll just take this as you not wanting to really discuss anything.. Cool.

That's fine.

I don't mind you calling me a liar nearly as much as you calling Jesus a liar.

And please don't refuse to talk with me, attempt to deflect from my questions by cross examining me, insult the church in which I was raised, and then lecture me on how to treat my bretheren. It makes me too sad for your soul.

[Christian Liberty]

That's fine.

I don't mind you calling me a liar nearly as much as you calling Jesus a liar.

And please don't refuse to talk with me, attempt to deflect from my questions by cross examining me, insult the church in which I was raised, and then lecture me on how to treat my bretheren. It makes me too sad for your soul.

You're incredibly frustrating.

[acptulsa]

You're incredibly frustrating.

I'm also frustrated. And tired.

I don't suppose you'd like to tell me where in His prophesy about the Judgement Day as related in Matthew 25 Jesus tells us about the group that believes in preordination and the group that doesn't?

No? Oh, well. Good night, FF.

[Sola_Fide]

That's fine.

I don't mind you calling me a liar nearly as much as you calling Jesus a liar.

And please don't refuse to talk with me, attempt to deflect from my questions by cross examining me, insult the church in which I was raised, and then lecture me on how to treat my bretheren. It makes me too sad for your soul.

Huh? I made a comment about the verse you posted. You haven't told me anything about what you believe about the verse. You just threw it up there and what....call me a liar? I already believe everything Jesus says, so that's a given. All I asked you was to tell me what you think this verse means, and how you think I would disagree with it. And you won't do it.

[acptulsa]

Huh? I made a comment about the verse you posted. You haven't told me anything about what you believe about the verse. You just threw it up there and what....call me a liar? I already believe everything Jesus says, so that's a given. All I asked you was to tell me what you think this verse means, and how you think I would disagree with it. And you won't do it.

Where in that prophesy does Jesus talk about the group that believes in preordination and the group that doesn't?

Jesus is the stumbling block. And I won't let you walk around Him.

Good night, S_F.

[Sola_Fide]

I'm also frustrated. And tired.

I don't suppose you'd like to tell me where in His prophesy about the Judgement Day as related in Matthew 25 Jesus tells us about the group that believes in preordination and the group that doesn't?

No? Oh, well. Good night, FF.

Oh that's your issue? Jesus mentions predestination in that passage:

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world.

[Christian Liberty]

I'm also frustrated. And tired.

I don't suppose you'd like to tell me where in His prophesy about the Judgement Day as related in Matthew 25 Jesus tells us about the group that believes in preordination and the group that doesn't?

No? Oh, well. Good night, FF.

I didn't claim that predestination appears in every single Bible text.

[Christian Liberty]

I didn't claim that predestination appears in every single Bible text.

Oh that's your issue? Jesus mentions predestination in that passage:

Not to mention that it appears in this one. Thanks SF

[acptulsa]

Oh that's your issue? Jesus mentions predestination in that passage:

Especially when you seemed to come here to lead the impressionable down the same garden path.

So, the Kingdom was prepared long ago. So what?

Where does He talk about the group that believes in preordination and the group that doesn't?

Do you really think that, if what you say is true, that these two groups are too incidental to the story of the Day of Judgement to mention? Really...?

Really...?