Girl, five, dies from a strain of the flu she was vaccinated against

[Weston White]

This is quite an astounding claim, that nature is at war with us.

Wait what now! Gee whiz, didn’t they teach you in Sunday school that nature is one giant conspiracy theory and that God hates you?

[Weston White]

That still doesn't make sense. You'll die of over-hydration before you'll die of trace elements in water. It's not toxic. Of course, if you drown yourself, that's a different story. It's just a matter of purity, not of being toxic or non-toxic. Water, in and of itself, is not toxic in any sense of the word. Nor is air without pollution, so it's a ridiculous claim.

Funny, actually, I was thinking about that a few weeks back. What if water intoxication is caused not by the water itself, but the noxious elements within the water, as in a sudden and rapid buildup of toxins? I think that would be interesting to determine which is truly the case. It would serve good proof for mandating better water municipal water purification methods.

[PaulConventionWV]

Funny, actually, I was thinking about that a few weeks back. What if water intoxication is caused not by the water itself, but the noxious elements within the water, as in a sudden and rapid buildup of toxins? I think that would be interesting to determine which is truly the case. It would serve good proof for mandating better water municipal water purification methods.

Over-hydration is a real thing. People have died. I don't see how anyone can attribute that to trace elements when it's pretty obvious they just drowned themselves from the inside out.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5012154

[Weston White]

Over-hydration is a real thing. People have died. I don't see how anyone can attribute that to trace elements when it's pretty obvious they just drowned themselves from the inside out.

http://www.npr.org/templates/story/s...toryId=5012154

Again good points. Was just was wondering if there is or could be something more to it.

[DamianTV]

Slightly off topic, but I havent had a flu shot or vaccine since I got out of the Navy. I dont even think I've had so much as a cold, let alone the Flu in probably six years. I think I've only had the Flu about three times in my life, one of them being when I was in Boot Camp and they shot us up with vaccines for everything. Other than that, very very few shots, ever. There are times I think I might be coming down with something, but I am slightly allergic to cats and mild hay fever, and usually attribute such momentary sniffles that last no more than an hour or two at tops to allergies, not colds. I have dogs that sleep on my bed. I dont wash my hands before devouring food, unless Im working with chemicals. I smoke. I drink. I dont exercise for $#@!. Ive got kids constantly crawling all over me while dogs are washing my face and I dont run screaming to the bathroom for emergency hand sanitizer. I have so many habits that people would look at to be about as absolutely unhealth conscious as one can possibly get. And I dont get sick. At all. Someone wanna explain that to me?

Why is it that despite my complete and total lack of vaccinations and exposure to damn near everything, i still dont manage to get sick?

[jmdrake]

Getting a flu shot reduces the chances that you will get the flu.

You are really capable of dumbing down a conversation farther than any single human being should be able to. Everything is toxic - it's the dose that matters. There is absolutely no science to support your contentions that vaccines make people sicker than disease. ANd yet here you are, mumbling unsubstantiated nonsense again.

Angela, you aren't thinking this through. Did you know that this year's flu shot was only 25% effective? Only 25%! And it's only 25% effective because only 25% of the flu virus that is out there is covered by it. That means that it is 100% ineffective against 75% of the flu virus. And we're assuming that it's 100% effective against the flu virus when it gets it "right" but that's probably not true either. By contrast, natural remedies work against 100% of flu viruses because they work by generally boosting the immune system. Also there are no known negative side effects to kimchi or garlic or elderberry extract or echinacia or vitamin C.

So here's the real question. Is the risk that something can make you sick but only as a 1 in 4 chance of protecting you worth it when there are arguably better alternatives that won't make you sick?

Edit: And even some of your fellow pro vaxxers will admit that the flu vaccine isn't worth the risk. You are out on your own on this one.

(See: http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...cording-to-CDC!)

[angelatc]

I said, "Everything is toxic. It's the dose that makes the poison. To which several replies were posted, perhaps most succinctly phrased as follows:

That's not a working definition of toxic. .

It is actually the scientific definition of toxic. Specifically, " containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation <toxic waste><a toxic radioactive gas><an insecticide highly toxic to birds>"

A central concept of toxicology is that effects are dose-dependent; even water can lead to water intoxication when taken in too high a dose, whereas for even a very toxic substance such as snakevenom there is a dose below which there is no detectable toxic effect.

For example, dark chocolate is toxic to dogs at a much lower dose than humans.

[angelatc]

Angela, you aren't thinking this through. Did you know that this year's flu shot was only 25% effective?

I did know that. But it still reduces the odds that you will get the flu and increases the odds that you will get a milder strain of the flu. BUt the odds are much worse this year than they usually are. But nothing I said is incorrect.

[jmdrake]

I did know that. But it still reduces the odds that you will get the flu and increases the odds that you will get a milder strain of the flu. BUt the odds are much worse this year than they usually are. But nothing I said is incorrect.

Not really. If you have a 75% chance that the flu shot you have is 0% effective, but the flu shot you take is one that contains a weakened flu virus, then you may very well have increased your chance of catching the flu. Meanwhile you can eat delicious kimchi which has shown to be effective against all kinds of flu viruses and has no nasty side effects and no attenuated flu virus. So...why the hell would anyone take the flu shot instead of eating kimchi? And sure you could do both, but most people don't.

Edit: Seriously Angela, even some of your fellow pro vaxxers understand the flu shot is a stupid idea and not worth the risk.

[angelatc]

I think I've only had the Flu about three times in my life,

If you are under 35, that's actually a pretty high number considering that on average, only about 12% of the population gets it every year. I am 51 and I have only had it once. (If I had it as a kid, then I don't remember.)

[PaulConventionWV]

Again good points. Was just was wondering if there is or could be something more to it.

I don't know, but it would take some convincing for me. Are there really enough trace elements in water to build up to truly toxic levels? In any case, it would still be very diluted and it's also going through the digestive system, which means the majority of the trace elements are just going to be excreted anyway.

[angelatc]

Not really. If you have a 75% chance that the flu shot you have is 0% effective, but the flu shot you take is one that contains a weakened flu virus, then you may very well have increased your chance of catching the flu. .

Well, I would have to look at the way the CDC composed their numbers but if there is a small percentage of people who get the flu from the live vaccine, then statistically they should be included in those numbers already, so you actually would not increase your odds.

[PaulConventionWV]

I said, "Everything is toxic. It's the dose that makes the poison. To which several replies were posted, perhaps most succinctly phrased as follows:



It is actually the scientific definition of toxic. Specifically, " containing or being poisonous material especially when capable of causing death or serious debilitation <toxic waste><a toxic radioactive gas><an insecticide highly toxic to birds>"

A central concept of toxicology is that effects are dose-dependent; even water can lead to water intoxication when taken in too high a dose, whereas for even a very toxic substance such as snakevenom there is a dose below which there is no detectable toxic effect.

For example, dark chocolate is toxic to dogs at a much lower dose than humans.

It's still just as absurd to claim that everything is toxic when we know that we NEED certain things in order to survive. Your idea of toxicology is either wrong or irrelevant because, as you've stated and re-stated, you have no idea what you're talking about. I bet you don't even read the studies you peddle.

[PaulConventionWV]

I did know that. But it still reduces the odds that you will get the flu and increases the odds that you will get a milder strain of the flu. BUt the odds are much worse this year than they usually are. But nothing I said is incorrect.

And you think this helps your case for vaccinations?

[PaulConventionWV]

Well, I would have to look at the way the CDC composed their numbers but if there is a small percentage of people who get the flu from the live vaccine, then statistically they should be included in those numbers already, so you actually would not increase your odds.

Wow, you're doing a great job establishing that the flu vaccine might not give you the flu! That convinces me how effective vaccines are (not!).

[Zippyjuan]

It's still just as absurd to claim that everything is toxic when we know that we NEED certain things in order to survive. Your idea of toxicology is either wrong or irrelevant because, as you've stated and re-stated, you have no idea what you're talking about. I bet you don't even read the studies you peddle.

We "need" a lot of things which can be deadly in too large of a dose. As mentioned, water is one. You can die from drinking too much water. Consuming too much salt can be fatal. Not enough of either and you can die as well. There are vitamins you need which can also be toxic at high levels. There isn't anything which will kill a human no matter how small the dose- 100% toxic. Whether or not you are harmed by something depends on how much you are exposed to and how your body responds to it. Some things your body can easily eliminate. Others can build up over time. Yes, toxicity does depend on dose.

[jmdrake]

Well, I would have to look at the way the CDC composed their numbers but if there is a small percentage of people who get the flu from the live vaccine, then statistically they should be included in those numbers already, so you actually would not increase your odds.

You are not at all understanding the statistic. I posted a link to that thread so please go read it. The statistic is stating that the vaccine only works against 23% of the virus this year. That doesn't mean it will be 100% effective even against that 23%. Nor does that say anything about the risk of getting the flu from the attenuated virus.

How can I put this is an way that you can understand? Okay. Let's say that you have a special bullet proof vest that only works against guns but is useless against knives. Lets say this particular vest has a property such that, sometimes, it may spontaneously explode and kill you even if you aren't being attacked at all. The problem is, you have been deployed into a prison. The overwhelming majority of the time you are facing knife attacks. After all prisoners have no access general access to guns. Every so often a prisoner manages to construct a zip gun and make his own gunpowder from by titrating his own urine and mixing it with sugar. Is the odd chance that you might get shot by a homemade gun worth it when the vest itself might spontaneously kill you? Hard to say. Most people might choose to go without a vest and see if they could find something to protect them from knives.

In the analogy the vest represents the vaccine. The knives represent the 77% of viruses it is not effective against. The spontaneous explosion factor of the vest represents the fact that sometimes, though not often, the vaccine itself can kill. At some point the risk of spontaneous vest explosion overtakes the risk of being shot by a prison zip gun. But the risk of being shot by a prison zip gun is no way factored into the efficacy of the vest which simply compares how many times it stops the real main threat (knives) from the rare threat (zip guns).

I sincerely hope that helps.

[jmdrake]

We "need" a lot of things which can be deadly in too large of a dose. As mentioned, water is one. You can die from drinking too much water. Consuming too much salt can be fatal. Not enough of either and you can die as well. There are vitamins you need which can also be toxic at high levels. There isn't anything which will kill a human no matter how small the dose- 100% toxic. Whether or not you are harmed by something depends on how much you are exposed to and how your body responds to it. Some things your body can easily eliminate. Others can build up over time. Yes, toxicity does depend on dose.

And how much mercury do we "need" to be healthy? Oh that's right....none. Also Angela's fallacious claim that "everything is toxic" ignores the fact that if you take "too much" of water soluble vitamins you just piss them away anyway.

[Zippyjuan]

I certainly don't say everything is needed. But how much mercury is a toxic level? Do you get mercury poisoning from one molecule of it? Or is there a "threshold level" where you have negative side effects? Does it build up in your body? How much is contained in a vaccine (vaccines for kids don't have any- only a few vaccines do). Your body can also get rid of the type of mercury in vaccines (there are two types- the kind found in vaccines is half gone from your body in one week).

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

And how much mercury do we "need" to be healthy?

No, JM, you just don't understand the "science." You need to beware of water like you need to beware of bug spray. Now, commence reading the journals immediately!

[PaulConventionWV]

We "need" a lot of things which can be deadly in too large of a dose. As mentioned, water is one. You can die from drinking too much water. Consuming too much salt can be fatal. Not enough of either and you can die as well. There are vitamins you need which can also be toxic at high levels. There isn't anything which will kill a human no matter how small the dose- 100% toxic. Whether or not you are harmed by something depends on how much you are exposed to and how your body responds to it. Some things your body can easily eliminate. Others can build up over time. Yes, toxicity does depend on dose.

Which is exactly my point. It's absurd to call them all toxic because what's the point of that anyway? The notion that you can literally stuff yourself such that your body can't function properly is a complete red herring. It serves no purpose to point that out.

[PaulConventionWV]

I certainly don't say everything is needed. But how much mercury is a toxic level? Do you get mercury poisoning from one molecule of it? Or is there a "threshold level" where you have negative side effects? Does it build up in your body? How much is contained in a vaccine (vaccines for kids don't have any- only a few vaccines do). Your body can also get rid of the type of mercury in vaccines (there are two types- the kind found in vaccines is half gone from your body in one week).

So there IS mercury in vaccines, then? I don't know about you, but that kinda settles it for me. Mercury is one of the most toxic substances on earth. There's absolutely no place for it in something that's supposed to improve your health. What kind of function could mercury possibly have in your body?

[Zippyjuan]

Yes, everybody who gets vaccinated dies of mercury poisoning. There is mercury in breast milk. There is mercury in table salt. How much is in the few vaccines which use it? 0.00000025 grams (a 150 pound person is 68,000 grams). And your body gets rid of half of it within a week so it is impossible for it to accumulate to toxic levels.

A "toxic dose" for that same person would be 1-4 grams a day. http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/archiv.../08health.html

The acute lethal dose for mercury compounds for an adult is 14–57 mg/kg or 1–4 g for a 70-kg person. The minimum lethal dose of methyl mercury, the organic form of mercury, is 20–60 mg/kg.

That would be about four to sixteen MILLION vaccines in a single day.

But to note, this is not the same kind of mercury in vaccines but the more toxic kind- methyl mercury- the sort found in old thermeters. Ethyl mercury is the sort used in vaccines.

[TheTexan]

Yes, everybody who gets vaccinated dies of mercury poisoning. There is mercury in breast milk. There is mercury in table salt. How much is in the few vaccines which use it? 0.00000025 grams. And your body gets rid of half of it within a week so it is impossible for it to accumulate to toxic levels.

Cigarettes are good for you.. in the right dose.

[CPUd]

[Anti Federalist]

.....adults have about a four percent chance of catching the flu if they don’t get the vaccine and about a one percent chance if they do. Shay notes that while this estimate is reasonable, some flu seasons are worse than others, so the risk may be higher than 4 percent in some years (and some people) and lower than 4 percent in others. (And of course, the vaccine won’t protect against the nearly 200 viruses that cause flu-like symptoms but aren’t actually the flu.)

A 3 percent margin from 4 to 1 percent?

Meh, I'll take my chances.

[Zippyjuan]

There is perhaps a hundred million vaccine's worth of mercury in that pan (just to give some idea).

[PaulConventionWV]

There is perhaps a hundred million vaccine's worth of mercury in that pan (just to give some idea).

I don't know about anyone else, but that's not too comforting.

[PaulConventionWV]

Yes, everybody who gets vaccinated dies of mercury poisoning. There is mercury in breast milk. There is mercury in table salt. How much is in the few vaccines which use it? 0.00000025 grams (a 150 pound person is 68,000 grams). And your body gets rid of half of it within a week so it is impossible for it to accumulate to toxic levels.

A "toxic dose" for that same person would be 1-4 grams a day. http://pubs.acs.org/subscribe/archiv.../08health.html



That would be about four to sixteen MILLION vaccines in a single day.

But to note, this is not the same kind of mercury in vaccines but the more toxic kind- methyl mercury- the sort found in old thermeters. Ethyl mercury is the sort used in vaccines.

That's for a lethal dose. NO amount of mercury is actually good for the body, so again, what's the purpose of it at all? Mercury, by its very presence, is causing harm. There is absolutely no use the human body has for it. It takes way less than a lethal dose to have negative effects, plus it's being injected directly into the blood stream, and that's way worse than accidentally ingesting a little bit.

[donnay]

: Vaccine Ingredients Chart: This tells you how much of each ingredient (other than the actual virus or bacteria the vaccine is supposed to protect against) your child, or in this case, our hypothetical 16 year-old “Terry” will receive from this recommended schedule.

Aluminum: 865 micrograms (mcg)
Bovine Protein: Unknown amount. This is a protected trade secret. You’re not allowed to know how much cow DNA is being injected into your kids.
Egg Protein: Unknown amount. Another trade secret.
Formaldehyde (you know… like in embalming fluid): 200+ mcg
Genetically Engineered Human Albumin: 300 mcg
Human Protein from Fetal Cell Line WI-38: Unkown amount. You guessed it… trade secret. And yes, this comes from an aborted human fetus.
Human Protein from Fetal Cell Line Wistar RA 27/: Ditto to above.
Mercury: 50 mcg. (Note the small green bar on the right. That’s the EPA “safe” limit for mercury.)
Phenoxyethanol: Just slightly less than 6 milligrams or 600 micrograms
Polysorbate 80: 500 mcg.
Yeast Protein: Unknown amount. Trade secret.

http://vaxtruth.org/2012/01/aluminum...er-on-the-vic/