Girl, five, dies from a strain of the flu she was vaccinated against

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

It definitely is worth reading, if you want a laugh.

The hilarity might be too much. Angela's other "sources" provide all the comedy my splitting side can take right now.

[angelatc]

Here it's back up: https://puffthemutantdragon.wordpres...-kombucha-tea/

It definitely is worth reading, if you want a laugh.

I am still waiting for you to actually inject any facts into the discussion. What did the site say that is incorrect, exactly?

[jmdrake]

If the dose is 23% effective, it means that the odds of getting the flu is lower than if you do not get the vaccine.

You can lower your odds more using natural means.

There is no risk of getting the flu from the attenuated flu virus.

You can give the attenuated virus to others according to the CDC.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/nasalspray.htm
Can people who have gotten the nasal spray flu vaccine spread the vaccine viruses to others?

Yes, it is possible, but it is very rare. Data indicate that both children and adults vaccinated with nasal spray flu vaccine can shed vaccine viruses after vaccination, although in lower amounts than typically occurs during shedding of wild-type influenza viruses. Rarely, shed vaccine viruses can be transmitted from vaccine recipients to unvaccinated persons. However, serious illnesses have not been reported among unvaccinated persons who have been infected inadvertently with vaccine viruses.


So even the biggest cheerleaders for the flu vaccine admits that it sometimes has little appreciable benefit and that it comes with some risk. You basically oversell the benefit, ignore the risk, and ignore better alternatives.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Got a link for that?

Yeah, let me draw a logic flow chart for you.

[angelatc]

The hilarity might be too much. Angela's other "sources" provide all the comedy my splitting side can take right now.

Says the person who has no sources, and has yet to prove a single factual error in any of the pro-science statements.

[angelatc]

Yeah, let me draw a logic flow chart for you.

I would like to see some actual mathematical support for your contention. Do you have a mathematical case to support the contention that a 23% effective rate against the flu does not reduce the odds of getting the flu?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...you are, in fact, just a wanna-be bully...

Maybe you should report me to your precious government. Do they have a vaccine for the exploding bully problem yet?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I would like to see some actual mathematical support for your contention.

Maybe you should pull out your grade school math book.

[jmdrake]

I cited the CDC statistics that stated that the flu vaccine was 23% effective this year. Therefore, getting the flu shot reduces the odds of getting the flu. MR DonnaY posted another quote from something else I linked to that reiterated it.

You understand that 23% effective means that it only might work 23% of the time right? You could get the "right" batch and still not be protected. What we know for sure is that 77% of the time it gives you no protection at all.

http://www.cdc.gov/flu/about/qa/vaccineeffect.htm
How well the flu vaccine works (or its ability to prevent flu illness) can range widely from season to season. The vaccine’s effectiveness also can vary depending on who is being vaccinated. At least two factors play an important role in determining the likelihood that flu vaccine will protect a person from flu illness: 1) characteristics of the person being vaccinated (such as their age and health), and 2) the similarity or "match" between the flu viruses the flu vaccine is designed to protect against and the flu viruses spreading in the community. During years when the flu vaccine is not well matched to circulating viruses, it’s possible that no benefit from flu vaccination may be observed. During years when there is a good match between the flu vaccine and circulating viruses, it’s possible to measure substantial benefits from vaccination in terms of preventing flu illness. However, even during years when the vaccine match is very good, the benefits of vaccination will vary across the population, depending on characteristics of the person being vaccinated and even, potentially, which vaccine was used.

So really the honest number is somewhat less than 23% effective. Meanwhile 100% of people can build up their immune system to fight the flu naturally.

[jmdrake]

I would like to see some actual mathematical support for your contention. Do you have a mathematical case to support the contention that a 23% effective rate against the flu does not reduce the odds of getting the flu?

I've cited the CDC to show that you are overselling the "23% effective" number. I also cited the CDC to prove you are wrong in your claim that the nasal flu vaccine cannot spread the flu.

[angelatc]

Maybe you should pull out your grade school math book.

So again, that's a no.

[jmdrake]

So again, that's a no.

Again you don't understand the CDC statistics you are attempting to cite and I've proven that by citing the CDC.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

So again, that's a no.

I can't make you pull out your math book.

[jmdrake]

//

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

dupe

[angelatc]

I've cited the CDC to show that you are overselling the "23% effective" number.

Even if getting the vaccine was only 1% effective, it would still reduce the odds of you getting the flu.

I also cited the CDC to prove you are wrong in your claim that the nasal flu vaccine cannot spread the flu.

I never said that the nasal vaccine couldn't spread the flu. I said that you can't contract the flu from getting the vaccine.

Can people who have gotten the nasal spray flu vaccine spread the vaccine viruses to others?

Yes, it is possible, but it is very rare. Data indicate that both children and adults vaccinated with nasal spray flu vaccine can shed vaccine viruses after vaccination, although in lower amounts than typically occurs during shedding of wild-type influenza viruses. Rarely, shed vaccine viruses can be transmitted from vaccine recipients to unvaccinated persons. However, serious illnesses have not been reported among unvaccinated persons who have been infected inadvertently with vaccine viruses.

They are not spreading the flu per se. It is rare, but they can spread the vaccine virus to unvaccinated people. Serious illness as a result has not been reported.

[angelatc]

Again you don't understand the CDC statistics you are attempting to cite and I've proven that by citing the CDC.

I took math far and above statistics. It is one area that I am fairly confident in. But this is not difficult. Again, even if the vaccine is 1% effective, it reduces the odds that you will get the flu. Maybe not significantly, but that's a subjective term.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I would like to see some actual mathematical support for your contention.

I would like to see people in this country pass grade school math and high school logic, but I'm not counting on it. They can't muster basic fundamentals, but then rail on forums because they can't tell the difference between a "blog" and facts.

It's no wonder we have big government advocates like you.

[angelatc]

I can't make you pull out your math book.

I am still waiting on you to provide evidence for your contention. *crickets*

[angelatc]

I would like to see people in this country pass grade school math and high school logic, but I'm not counting on it. They can't muster basic fundamentals, but then rail on forums because they can't tell the difference between a "blog" and facts.

I am still waiting for you to provide evidence to support your contention. *crickets*

[jmdrake]

Even if getting the vaccine was only 1% effective, it would still reduce the odds of you getting the flu.

Sure. But at some point the benefit is no longer worth the risk. Anyway, if I've helped you to understand now that even the 23% number you are clinging to is most likely high, then I am making some progress with helping you see the truth. I'm happy for that.

I never said that the nasal vaccine couldn't spread the flu. I said that you can't contract the flu from getting the vaccine.

A person getting the flu is a person getting the flu.

They are not spreading the flu per se. It is rare, but they can spread the vaccine virus to unvaccinated people. Serious illness as a result has not been reported.

You realize that typically the flu itself doesn't count as a serious illness right? No....I guess not.

[angelatc]

A person getting the flu is a person getting the flu.

Eh, there are different strains of the flu. Getting the weakend attenuated version is probably not considered getting the flu.

You realize that typically the flu itself doesn't count as a serious illness right? No....I guess not.

No, I did not. Do you have a source for that?

ETA: According to the CDC, the flu is a serious disease:

Flu is a serious contagious disease. Each year in the United States, on average, more than 200,000 people are hospitalized from flu complications and 36,000 people die from flu.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I am still waiting for you to provide evidence to support your contention. *crickets*

Evidence for what? That you're a big government advocate? I'll let people read your posts and decide for themselves. I would not trust you in matters of mandatory vaccines and jailing people. Illogically linking two unrelated statements and posting from wikipedia blogs ain't exactly science.

[PaulConventionWV]

No, not at all. The opposite of toxic is not healthy or beneficial. The opposite of toxic is non-toxic. And that's dose dependent.

There are a lot of things that are beneficial to our systems in small doses that are dangerous in big doses. Warfarin is a very effective coagulant, which is why it also made a good rat poison.

It is the dose that makes the poison.

Don't be obtuse. Freakin' mercury is in the vaccines. What purpose could it possibly serve? I don't care how small of a dose. Why is it even there?

[PaulConventionWV]

This entire thread is not about mercury in vaccines. That's just a side issue. This thread was about a girl who died after getting a flu she was vaccinated against. Nothing to do with mercury.

Are you trying to make a point? Because I'm failing to see it.

[angelatc]

Evidence for what? That you're a big government advocate? I'll let people read your posts and decide for themselves. I would not trust you in matters of mandatory vaccines and jailing people. Illogically linking two unrelated statements and posting from wikipedia blogs ain't exactly science.

I asked for evidence with regard to several specific statements up above. Still waiting.

[jmdrake]

Eh, there are different strains of the flu. Getting the weakend attenuated version is probably not considered getting the flu.


No, I did not. Do you have a source for that?

ETA: According to the CDC, the flu is a serious disease:

I think you are don't understand what you are quoting. Most people who get the flu neither die nor are hospitalized. So most of the time the flu is not serious.

http://www.flu.gov/about_the_flu/seasonal/
Seasonal flu is a contagious respiratory illness caused by flu viruses. Approximately 5-20% of U.S. residents get the flu each year.

There are about 320 million people in the U.S. Going with the low number of 5%, that is 16 million cases of the flu. Of that 200,000 are hospitalized. So basically that's 1.25%. So no, the flu is typically not a serious illness and the CDC does not consider the flu to typically be a serious illness. It's a serious illness for 1.25% of the people who get it by the CDC's own numbers.

[PaulConventionWV]

The source of information does not negate the accuracy.

...

Once again, an opinion piece backed up by no facts. She ignored the request for actual facts about her last assertion, and just posts something else entirely unrelated to that discussion.

This is trolling.

What's that? The source of the information does not negate the accuracy? Is it just me or is there a ridiculous double standard there? You call out Donnay all the time for her sources.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

No, I did not. Do you have a source for that?

ETA: According to the CDC, the flu is a serious disease:

Do you have a source for that? Show me the original data of all those hospitalized people. "Complications" is an amorphous term that is abused no end.

People go to the hospital for all sorts of nonsense. My wife works a in hospital. People go to the emergency room because they ran out of dope, they're homeless, got kicked out of their house, or they just want something to eat. The doctors make sure they get their money with the insured "patients." It's starts with excessive blood tests just to keep the hospital in business, and goes from there.

There are your cute consumer FAQs and TV, and then there's reality.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

I asked for evidence with regard to several specific statements up above. Still waiting.

I'm waiting for you to logically connect two unrelated statements.