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Thread: Dr Al Mohler & Chris Date debate the traditional & conditionalist view of hell

  1. #1

    Dr Al Mohler & Chris Date debate the traditional & conditionalist view of hell

    http://www.premierchristianradio.com...tionalist-view

    Following an article in the New York Times about scholars who adopt an annihilationist (also called 'conditional immortality') view of hell rather than the traditional 'eternal conscious torment' view, Justin is joined by two evangelicals to debate the issue.

    Dr Al Mohler is President of Southern Baptist Theological Seminary. He spoke against the annihilationist view in an edition of his daily podcast The Briefing.

    Chris Date is one of the founders of Rethinking Hell and adopted an annihilationist view after he became convinced the Bible teaches it. They debate the scriptural evidence and whether scholarship is moving away from the traditional view.



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  3. #2
    Why would it matter??

    unless you intend to wind up there. (the details are irrelevant)

    It is easy to avoid.
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  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Why would it matter??

    unless you intend to wind up there. (the details are irrelevant)

    It is easy to avoid.
    Well, Christians could wind up there, depending on whether you believe in eternal security or not. Not every Christian believes in the doctrine of eternal security. But beyond that, I think it's important to interpret the Bible accurately and be accurate about God's character and what he's actually going to do. I think there's reason to believe that God won't be very happy with those who claim that he's going to torment people for all eternity if that's not what he's actually going to do. It's not a salvation issue. You aren't saved or not saved depending on what you believe about hell. But I feel that it's important nonetheless.

  5. #4
    I also never really understood how anyone could actually be happy in heaven if you knew that people were being tormented in hell, or if you could see people being tormented in hell. I don't see how I could ever enjoy any of the blessings of heaven if I knew that there were people somewhere else who were undergoing excruciating pain. Some of the people there might even be your immediate family and close friends. So why would that be an issue that isn't relevant to Christians? It would greatly affect what we experience in the next life on the new earth.

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I also never really understood how anyone could actually be happy in heaven if you knew that people were being tormented in hell, or if you could see people being tormented in hell. I don't see how I could ever enjoy any of the blessings of heaven if I knew that there were people somewhere else who were undergoing excruciating pain. Some of the people there might even be your immediate family and close friends. So why would that be an issue that isn't relevant to Christians? It would greatly affect what we experience in the next life on the new earth.
    well, one way or another we will be happy in heaven but I agree with your point. If you're right I'm unwittingly misrepresenting God's character and if I'm right you're unwittingly representing God's character. Either way its important, though I agree not a primary.

    As an eternal conscious torment believer (though not exactly thrilled about it) there are definitely some tricky verses for my position, like the one where the Bible literally says Satan will turn to ashes. But I think the verses in Revelation that say the unbelievers will be tormented forever is tricky for your position. I'm not saying they DEFINITIVELY prove you wrong, but I don't think its as easy as "oh, that book is symbolic, so let's just assume it doesn't mean what it plainly says."

    I want to watch the debate, would be interesting.
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  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    well, one way or another we will be happy in heaven but I agree with your point. If you're right I'm unwittingly misrepresenting God's character and if I'm right you're unwittingly representing God's character. Either way its important, though I agree not a primary.

    As an eternal conscious torment believer (though not exactly thrilled about it) there are definitely some tricky verses for my position, like the one where the Bible literally says Satan will turn to ashes. But I think the verses in Revelation that say the unbelievers will be tormented forever is tricky for your position. I'm not saying they DEFINITIVELY prove you wrong, but I don't think its as easy as "oh, that book is symbolic, so let's just assume it doesn't mean what it plainly says."

    I want to watch the debate, would be interesting.
    Thanks for being civil and open minded about it. A lot of Christians just aren't willing to even consider the debate and react angrily to the position that I'm presenting, because they don't like going against centuries of tradition, or feel that it's just another example of sort of watering down the Bible and changing a doctrine because we can't handle the doctrine. But I think if you listen to Chris Date, he certainly believes in annihilationism because he believes that the Bible teaches it, not because he feels that the doctrine of eternal torment is somehow unfair. In fact, he's said that he doesn't believe that it would be unfair for God to torment people for all eternity, even if people were predestined to go to hell. (He's a Calvinist)

  8. #7
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Thanks for being civil and open minded about it. A lot of Christians just aren't willing to even consider the debate and react angrily to the position that I'm presenting, because they don't like going against centuries of tradition, or feel that it's just another example of sort of watering down the Bible and changing a doctrine because we can't handle the doctrine. But I think if you listen to Chris Date, he certainly believes in annihilationism because he believes that the Bible teaches it, not because he feels that the doctrine of eternal torment is somehow unfair. In fact, he's said that he doesn't believe that it would be unfair for God to torment people for all eternity, even if people were predestined to go to hell. (He's a Calvinist)
    Christians discussing religious differences in a civil manner? What is RPF coming to? Seriously though I look forward to watching the debate myself. I think one practical outcome on this belief is the further question of whether someone can do something for the relative being tormented in purgatory. Sure most Christian sects don't hold to that but some do. And just like there are verses that cause problems on both sides on conditional immortality, there are verses that cause problems on both sides for whether you can do something to help someone beyond the grave. (Paul talking about baptism for the dead for instance in 1 Cor 15:29.)
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  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Christians discussing religious differences in a civil manner? What is RPF coming to? Seriously though I look forward to watching the debate myself. I think one practical outcome on this belief is the further question of whether someone can do something for the relative being tormented in purgatory. Sure most Christian sects don't hold to that but some do. And just like there are verses that cause problems on both sides on conditional immortality, there are verses that cause problems on both sides for whether you can do something to help someone beyond the grave. (Paul talking about baptism for the dead for instance in 1 Cor 15:29.)
    Well, my view is that you can't help those beyond the grave, because they're just unconscious until the resurrection. Those who take the opposite view can point to a handful of verses that they think show otherwise, but I think the totality of what the Bible teaches from beginning to end is that there's no life after death until the resurrection.
    Last edited by Brett85; 01-05-2015 at 12:56 PM.



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Thanks for being civil and open minded about it. A lot of Christians just aren't willing to even consider the debate and react angrily to the position that I'm presenting, because they don't like going against centuries of tradition, or feel that it's just another example of sort of watering down the Bible and changing a doctrine because we can't handle the doctrine. But I think if you listen to Chris Date, he certainly believes in annihilationism because he believes that the Bible teaches it, not because he feels that the doctrine of eternal torment is somehow unfair. In fact, he's said that he doesn't believe that it would be unfair for God to torment people for all eternity, even if people were predestined to go to hell. (He's a Calvinist)
    I was partially influenced here by a solid Reformed guy that I know, who I know would never dream of saying God was "unfair" for any reason (in fact, he was one of the key individuals in my life who convinced me of Calvinism. Believe it or not I used to be Arminian). I've also been influenced by seeing some verses that I see as tricky for my own position. I still happen to think eternal torment is the correct view, at least for now. But, I have realized through some of these debates that its possible to honestly hold sola scriptura and come to a different conclusion. I'd probably actually say the case for annihilationism is probably better than the case for Arminianism.

    But I still have some difficulties with accepting your view. I'm willing to look into it, but I don't buy it yet.
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  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Christians discussing religious differences in a civil manner? What is RPF coming to? Seriously though I look forward to watching the debate myself. I think one practical outcome on this belief is the further question of whether someone can do something for the relative being tormented in purgatory. Sure most Christian sects don't hold to that but some do. And just like there are verses that cause problems on both sides on conditional immortality, there are verses that cause problems on both sides for whether you can do something to help someone beyond the grave. (Paul talking about baptism for the dead for instance in 1 Cor 15:29.)
    The problem with that is that Paul was simply commenting on this practice that was nowhere else mentioned in the Bible and certainly never actually commanded by the Bible. I think the most reasonable way to take that is that this was some local practice that Paul never actually commanded.

    I also think the theological problems with purgatory are MASSIVe. The problems with annihilationism do exist but are not nearly as serious as the problems with purgatory IMO (I'll also note that at the present time I would have to break with both Sola and Nang on whether or not this is an essential gospel issue. I don't think it is.)
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  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I was partially influenced here by a solid Reformed guy that I know, who I know would never dream of saying God was "unfair" for any reason (in fact, he was one of the key individuals in my life who convinced me of Calvinism. Believe it or not I used to be Arminian). I've also been influenced by seeing some verses that I see as tricky for my own position. I still happen to think eternal torment is the correct view, at least for now. But, I have realized through some of these debates that its possible to honestly hold sola scriptura and come to a different conclusion. I'd probably actually say the case for annihilationism is probably better than the case for Arminianism.

    But I still have some difficulties with accepting your view. I'm willing to look into it, but I don't buy it yet.
    Fair enough. I think the case for Calvinism is stronger than the case for eternal torment, although I still lean towards Arminianism. I think it's a close call though.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Well, Christians could wind up there,
    NO.. They won't.

    People that call themselves "Christian" might.

    a lot of NON-Christians call themselves Christian.



    "But you do not believe because you are not of My sheep. "My sheep hear My voice, and I know them, and they follow Me; and I give eternal life to them, and they will never perish; and no one will snatch them out of My hand.…
    Nevertheless, God's solid foundation stands firm, sealed with this inscription: "The Lord knows those who are his," and, "Everyone who confesses the name of the Lord must turn away from wickedness."
    Last edited by pcosmar; 01-05-2015 at 01:34 PM.
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  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    NO.. They won't.

    People that call themselves "Christian" might.

    a lot of NON-Christians call themselves Christian.
    Well, it's not like there's no debate at all among Christians when it comes to the doctrine of eternal security. The doctrine of eternal security wasn't even taught for the first 16 centuries of Christianity. But that's another debate not completely related to this. But even if you can't lose your salvation, it still seems as though you would have to say that many people who think they're Christians aren't actually Christians and will end up in the lake of fire. So I don't necessarily think it's the case that it's not something for those who call themselves Christians to worry about, because you would still have to wonder about whether or not you're truly saved or not.
    Last edited by Brett85; 01-05-2015 at 02:06 PM.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Well, it's not like there's no debate at all among Christians when it comes to the doctrine of eternal security. The doctrine of eternal security wasn't even taught for the first 16 centuries of Christianity. But that's another debate not completely related to this. But even if you can't lose your salvation, it still seems as though you would have to say that many people who think they're Christians aren't actually Christians and will end up in the lake of fire. So I don't necessarily think it's the case that it's not something for those who call themselves Christians to worry about, because you would still have to wonder about whether or not you're truly saved or not. I mean, there seem to be some people here who think that you can't be saved unless you're a hardcore libertarian politically, which would mean that something like 90% or more of those who claim to be Christians aren't actually saved.
    My issue here with the bold would be: If a truly saved Christian cannot support homosexuality or adultery as moral options, how can he support stealing, kidnapping, murder, and torture?

    I get that there are nuances here, and there will always be different views on precisely what falls into each category. For instance, some people here think that blackmail is inherently aggressive and thus would warrant legal violence. I don't take this position but I would never question that a Christian, or even a libertarian, could take such a position.

    But I don't see how the hardline utilitarian, democratic morality positions that most "Christians" take are compatible with Christianity. Can a new Christian simply have never thought about it? Of course. Do mature Christians continue down the path of American exceptionalism, neoconservatism, and utilitarianism? I doubt it, at least if actually living like Christ is an inevitable part of the Christian faith.
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  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    My issue here with the bold would be: If a truly saved Christian cannot support homosexuality or adultery as moral options, how can he support stealing, kidnapping, murder, and torture?
    I decided to delete that as to not get this thread any more off topic than it already is.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    The problem with that is that Paul was simply commenting on this practice that was nowhere else mentioned in the Bible and certainly never actually commanded by the Bible. I think the most reasonable way to take that is that this was some local practice that Paul never actually commanded.

    I also think the theological problems with purgatory are MASSIVe. The problems with annihilationism do exist but are not nearly as serious as the problems with purgatory IMO (I'll also note that at the present time I would have to break with both Sola and Nang on whether or not this is an essential gospel issue. I don't think it is.)
    It seems like believing in life immediately after death and a conscious intermediate state opens up the possibility of purgatory and makes it more likely. If soul sleep is true, then it makes the doctrine of purgatory impossible. I would argue that that's another reason why it's a more Biblical doctrine.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Well, my view is that you can't help those beyond the grave, because they're just unconscious until the resurrection. Those who take the opposite view can point to a handful of verses that they think show otherwise, but I think the totality of what the Bible teaches from beginning to end is that there's no life after death until the resurrection.
    Well as you know I have the same view.

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    The problem with that is that Paul was simply commenting on this practice that was nowhere else mentioned in the Bible and certainly never actually commanded by the Bible. I think the most reasonable way to take that is that this was some local practice that Paul never actually commanded.

    I also think the theological problems with purgatory are MASSIVe. The problems with annihilationism do exist but are not nearly as serious as the problems with purgatory IMO (I'll also note that at the present time I would have to break with both Sola and Nang on whether or not this is an essential gospel issue. I don't think it is.)
    I'm sure you realize that I don't agree with purgatory. My point is that if you don't believe people are immortal in hell then you don't even reach the idea of purgatory. But yes, there are other reasons not not to believe in purgatory either. It's interesting to note the various different explanations for baptism for the dead though. For instance Calvin at one point said baptism of the dead was really talking about people near death getting baptized.

    http://www.studylight.org/commentari...gi?bk=45&ch=15
    It appears from the writings of the Fathers, that as to this matter, also, there crept in afterwards a superstition, for they inveigh against those who delayed baptism till the time of their death, that, being once for all purged from all their sins, they might in this state meet the judgment of God. (71) A gross error truly, which proceeded partly from great ignorance, and partly from hypocrisy! Paul, however, here simply mentions a custom that was sacred, and in accordance with the Divine institution — that if a catechumen, who had already in his heart embraced the Christian faith, (72) saw that death was impending over him, he asked baptism, partly for his own consolation, and partly with a view to the edification of his brethren. For it is no small consolation to carry the token of his salvation sealed in his body. There is also an edification, not to be lost sight of — that of making a confession of his faith. They were, then, baptized for the dead, inasmuch as it could not be of any service to them in this world, and the very occasion of their asking baptism was that they despaired of life.
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    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
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  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I decided to delete that as to not get this thread any more off topic than it already is.
    If I start another thread will you answer the question?
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  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Well as you know I have the same view.
    Yeah, I know. I just wasn't sure why you brought up the issue at first.

  23. #20

    It Has Serious Ramifications Upon Behavior and Thought in This Life

    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    Well, Christians could wind up there, depending on whether you believe in eternal security or not. Not every Christian believes in the doctrine of eternal security. But beyond that, I think it's important to interpret the Bible accurately and be accurate about God's character and what he's actually going to do. I think there's reason to believe that God won't be very happy with those who claim that he's going to torment people for all eternity if that's not what he's actually going to do. It's not a salvation issue. You aren't saved or not saved depending on what you believe about hell. But I feel that it's important nonetheless.
    Also, if annihilationism is true, then there's no reason to see the seriousness of sin and its need to be eternally dealt with by God, Who is eternally just.

    If annihilationism is true, then there really is no incentive for the unrighteous to fear God's "Day of Judgment" where they will have to give an account of their deeds and suffer the consequences of God's fierce wrath, due to His hatred of sin. If all that is going to happen to the wicked (those outside of a saving relationship with Christ) is being burned away into nonexistence, then why not give in to every fleshly desire and act upon every wretched thought? In the end, all God is going to do is be very angry at you, throw you in some fire, and burn you into nothingness. It may hurt for a little while, but, hey, the pains of eternal flames will be over soon enough for you.

    Nonexistence, then, becomes your reward for sinning against God without repentance. And what is the point of warning others to flee the wrath which is to come (Luke 3:7)?
    "Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45

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  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Also, if annihilationism is true, then there's no reason to see the seriousness of sin and its need to be eternally dealt with by God, Who is eternally just.

    If annihilationism is true, then there really is no incentive for the unrighteous to fear God's "Day of Judgment" where they will have to give an account of their deeds and suffer the consequences of God's fierce wrath, due to His hatred of sin. If all that is going to happen to the wicked (those outside of a saving relationship with Christ) is being burned away into nonexistence, then why not give in to every fleshly desire and act upon every wretched thought? In the end, all God is going to do is be very angry at you, throw you in some fire, and burn you into nothingness. It may hurt for a little while, but, hey, the pains of eternal flames will be over soon enough for you.

    Nonexistence, then, becomes your reward for sinning against God without repentance. And what is the point of warning others to flee the wrath which is to come (Luke 3:7)?
    The Bible says that men fear death more than anything else. We also see that in our society with the fear that people have of death. Most people are scared to death of dying. People have an inherent longing to live, to experience life. This is part of our God given nature. Being deprived of life for all eternity is a terrible punishment. In our society, the punishment of death is the harshest punishment that exists. In our society, the death penalty is considered to be a more severe penalty than life in prison. So again, what basis is there when you look at either our society or the Bible to conclude that men don't fear death? I think it's absolutely clear that most people have a terrible fear of death.

    I would also argue that the doctrine of eternal torment in hell hasn't done a thing to make this world more moral, to scare people into not giving into fleshly desires and not committing evil. Despite the fact that the doctrine of eternal torment has been taught for quite some time, we still live in a world with murder, theft, rape, drunkenness, sexual immorality, adultery, and every other sin you can think of. It seems as though our culture and our society is as evil and immoral as it's ever been. So where's the evidence that the doctrine of eternal torment has actually served as any kind of deterrent against people committing evil acts? I would also argue that the doctrine of eternal security contributes far more to the attitude among Christians that they can engage in as much sin as they want to and still be saved and make it to heaven. If you're eternally secure the moment you're saved, if you can never lose your salvation, then you're free to live your life however you want to free of any consequences. And Christians in today's society do that. They just say, "well, the Bible teaches that we're saved by faith, and once we're saved by faith we can never lose our salvation, so I'm just going to go out and live however I want to since I won't have to worry about facing any consequences for that." So I think if you're concerned about a certain doctrine in Christianity which causes Christians to live lives of sin and give into their fleshly desires, you should aim your focus on the doctrine of eternal security, not annihilationism.

    Lastly, I'm not really interested in philosophical arguments anyway. I'm interested in what the Bible actually says about this subject. I believe the Bible clearly teaches annihilationism. All throughout the New Testament, the fate of the wicked is described as "death, perishing, destruction, slaughter, being consumed, being killed," etc. I don't think that can be any more clear than it is. You can argue that you don't think that annihilationism is "tough enough" on the unsaved, but ultimately it doesn't matter whether you think it's tough enough or in some way "unfair." Ultimately God is God, and he'll do what he says he's going to do. He'll do exactly what he says he'll do in Matthew 10:28.

    "Do not fear those who kill the body but are unable to kill the soul; but rather fear Him who is able to destroy both soul and body in hell."
    Last edited by Brett85; 01-07-2015 at 06:02 PM.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Also, if annihilationism is true, then there's no reason to see the seriousness of sin and its need to be eternally dealt with by God, Who is eternally just.

    If annihilationism is true, then there really is no incentive for the unrighteous to fear God's "Day of Judgment" where they will have to give an account of their deeds and suffer the consequences of God's fierce wrath, due to His hatred of sin. If all that is going to happen to the wicked (those outside of a saving relationship with Christ) is being burned away into nonexistence, then why not give in to every fleshly desire and act upon every wretched thought? In the end, all God is going to do is be very angry at you, throw you in some fire, and burn you into nothingness. It may hurt for a little while, but, hey, the pains of eternal flames will be over soon enough for you.

    Nonexistence, then, becomes your reward for sinning against God without repentance. And what is the point of warning others to flee the wrath which is to come (Luke 3:7)?
    I'm not an annihilationist, but O d not agree with all of this.

    First of all, annihilationists have different views regarding suffering in Hell. None of them believe the suffering literally lasts forever. But many still believe in conscious torment, not just eternal conscious torment. TC happens to think the torment is limited to one full day at most (taking "day" ) literally, but I know another annihilationist that says the torment could be an exteremly long amount of time, "100,000 years" or even longer perhaps. Taking all of these ideas as a jumble, if God said "those who don't believe will be tormented for an indefinite amount of time and then cease to exist" that alone would be pretty scary. Add "those who do believe will get to be in heaven with me living life more abundantly than any man on earth" and I don't really think the whole "do what you want" argument even partially follows.

    I still think this issue is important because it deals with the character of God, how exactly we preach the gospel, and it has huge ramifications on the eternal destinies of billions of people. But if TC is right, I don't think that means it makes sense to reject God.
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  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I still think this issue is important because it deals with the character of God, how exactly we preach the gospel, and it has huge ramifications on the eternal destinies of billions of people. But if TC is right, I don't think that means it makes sense to reject God.
    Yes -- if the only reason you accept God is because you think God will allow you to be eternally tortured if you don't, is that really accepting God? Even if it was true, I don't think it makes sense to approach unbelievers with that kind of gospel. But it's obvious why it tends to get used - fear is an extremely powerful motivator.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

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  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Yes -- if the only reason you accept God is because you think God will allow you to be eternally tortured if you don't, is that really accepting God? Even if it was true, I don't think it makes sense to approach unbelievers with that kind of gospel. But it's obvious why it tends to get used - fear is an extremely powerful motivator.
    Well,, I think it is overused as a rule..
    That is the end result in continuing on one path. And perhaps that does trigger some to reevaluate their lives.
    For some it is other things. Some are in hell and screaming to get out. Some in foxholes and some in cells.
    That is the message of salvation. The good news. You don't have to go there.


    But that is the rest of the story..
    Last edited by pcosmar; 01-07-2015 at 11:42 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom



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  29. #25
    Oh,, and I had never even heard of "annihilation-ism" till here.

    Can an eternal being be annihilated? There is no time in eternity. no end.

    I guess we'll see when we get there.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Oh,, and I had never even heard of "annihilation-ism" till here.

    Can an eternal being be annihilated? There is no time in eternity. no end.

    I guess we'll see when we get there.
    I hadn't heard of it until a couple of years ago either. I believed in eternal torment for most of my life. I also believed the fire was literal, and that unbelievers would literally burn in a lake of fire for all eternity. I've just come to realize how absurd that view is though, given that the Bible teaches that God is a consuming fire, and that no one is guaranteed life when they're outside the presence of God. Are we eternal beings? Well, I believe that Adam was created as an eternal being, but he lost the gift of immortality when he ate the forbidden fruit. Adam clearly understood the consequence of his sin; death. Had he not eaten of the forbidden fruit, he would've lived forever. He forfeited the gift of eternal life by willingly disobeying God. Thus, the entire message of the gospel is that the only way that we can receive eternal life and live forever is by accepting Jesus Christ as our Lord and Savior.

    Also, I don't really like the term "annihilationism," even though that's what this view is usually called. It just seems like a really weird word to me. Conditionalism or conditional immortality sounds a lot better to me. That simply means that immortality, the gift of eternal life, is conditioned upon receiving Jesus Christ as your personal Lord and Savior. It's not that everyone is born with an immortal soul, and that everyone has to live forever somewhere, either in heaven or hell. It's that no one can live at all without accepting Christ. Those who don't accept Christ and die in their sins will be outside the presence of God for all eternity, and no one who is outside the presence of God can receive any kind of life. We rely on God's omnipresence to sustain us, to keep us alive.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by Theocrat View Post
    Also, if annihilationism is true, then there's no reason to see the seriousness of sin and its need to be eternally dealt with by God, Who is eternally just.

    If annihilationism is true, then there really is no incentive for the unrighteous to fear God's "Day of Judgment" where they will have to give an account of their deeds and suffer the consequences of God's fierce wrath, due to His hatred of sin. If all that is going to happen to the wicked (those outside of a saving relationship with Christ) is being burned away into nonexistence, then why not give in to every fleshly desire and act upon every wretched thought? In the end, all God is going to do is be very angry at you, throw you in some fire, and burn you into nothingness. It may hurt for a little while, but, hey, the pains of eternal flames will be over soon enough for you.

    Nonexistence, then, becomes your reward for sinning against God without repentance. And what is the point of warning others to flee the wrath which is to come (Luke 3:7)?
    The atheist condemned in human courts doesn't sit around and think "Oh great! I've got the death penalty but I don't have to worry about hell at least." And if your reason not to sin is fear of hell then you probably aren't saved anyway. Besides, you believe in unconditional election right? If God has predestined you to go to heaven then He doesn't have to have an eternally burning hell just to motivate you to go. And for the record, annialationists don't believe there is no punishment. If you're burned in hell for 1,000 years and then finally die you've still been punished.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 01-08-2015 at 08:29 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by pcosmar View Post
    Oh,, and I had never even heard of "annihilation-ism" till here.

    Can an eternal being be annihilated? There is no time in eternity. no end.

    I guess we'll see when we get there.
    That's just it. The only eternal being is God. Of course God can't be annihilated but that doesn't mean His creation can't be. The first lie ever told was "You shall not surely die." Note the adjective "surely." Ask any Christian what the wages of sin is and he/she will quickly say "death." But most Christians do not believe that the sinner will surely die.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    And for the record, annialationists don't believe there is no punishment. If you're burned in hell for 1,000 years and then finally die you've still been punished.
    I would go even further than that and say that I don't believe you have to be conscious to be punished. Because I think if you accept the traditionalist argument that the only way the unsaved can be "punished" is through being alive and experiencing torment, then the annihilationist view would contradict Matthew 25:46, which uses the term "eternal punishment." That's why I don't argue that the unsaved will be "punished" for a period of time after the judgment and then will be annihilated. I do think they probably experience some amount of physical pain and torment, but I still think their primary punishment is death, eternal death. I think the punishment of death is an eternal punishment, because it has results which last forever. The death sentence is never undone. There won't be a second resurrection of the dead for those who perish in the lake of fire. So the way that I phrase it, and the way that Chris Date phrased it in the debate is that we don't disagree with traditionalists that the unsaved will receive eternal punishment, as Matthew 25:46 states. We just disagree on the nature of the punishment. We believe that the ultimate eternal punishment the unsaved will receive is death. (Clearly taught in Romans 6:23 and other passages) Traditionalists believe that the eternal punishment the unsaved receive is torment.

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The atheist condemned in human courts doesn't sit around and think "Oh great! I've got the death penalty but I don't have to worry about hell at least." And if your reason not to sin is fear of hell then you probably aren't saved anyway.
    Exactly. If you don't believe in an afterlife, then this is it. The death penalty means losing the only life that you will ever have, which is a big deal. Although, losing the only life you will ever have is still better than being tortured for all of eternity.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

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