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Thread: Voters ban red light cameras; city councils sue voters to bring them back

  1. #1

    Voters ban red light cameras; city councils sue voters to bring them back

    SMH...

    In November, voters in St. Charles County, Missouri, banned red light cameras with a 73 percent majority — but city council members of several towns within the county are now suing to bring them back. "They're suing their own residents," said St. Charles County Councilman Joe Brazil, who supports the ban.

    Critics like Brazil have alleged that the lawsuit is a transparent attempt to increase city revenues, while the lawsuit claims that there's no authority for voters at the county level to ban cameras within city limits. The lawsuit could take as long as several years to resolve.

    http://theweek.com/speedreads/index/...ring-them-back


    Cities challenge St. Charles County’s red light camera ban

    (KMOV.com) – St. Peters, O’Fallon, Lake St. Louis, and a councilman from O’Fallon are filing a lawsuit in attempt to block a ban on red light cameras in St. Charles County.

    Voters approved the ban November 4, with 73 percent of those who went to polls supporting the measure. However, those suing maintain the county has overstepped its legal bounds.

    “Seventy-three percent of the voters pass a ban on red light cameras so what these cities are doing are suing 73 percent of the voters in St. Charles County, within their own cities. They’re suing their own residents,” said St. Charles County Councilman Joe Brazil.

    Supporters of red light cameras say the cameras are for safety, while critics say they are just a money grab. Who can regulate and restrict red light cameras is open to debate. St. Peters issued a statement saying:
    No authority exists for St. Charles County to lay claim to the regulation of traffic on city streets.

    “I believe what’s the point of having a municipality if you’re not going to organize and establish your own right and regulations,” said Elizabeth LaFlamme.

    “The federal government has jurisdictions over the states, states have jurisdictions over the counties, the counties have jurisdictions over their municipalities, so it’s fairly clear that they have the right to impose laws on those municipalities, especially if those laws are voted into law by the voters,” said Roger Dalsky.

    The attorney representing the cities filing the lawsuit said the county’s legal authority is very clear.

    “The state can dictate what cities are authorized to do or prohibit the cities from doing things. There’s nothing in the Missouri Constitution that provides the county to do the same thing,” said attorney John Young.
    Young believes it may be months or years before the lawsuit is resolved in court.

    http://www.kmov.com/news/st-charles-...286714451.html



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  3. #2
    “I believe what’s the point of having a municipality if you’re not going to organize and establish your own right and regulations,” said Elizabeth LaFlamme.
    This quote is confusing and disturbing. Confurbing?
    All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
    -Albert Camus

  4. #3
    Lol, I love this. Pedal to the metal toward impending blowback.
    “One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

  5. #4
    If I lived in one of those towns I'd have a countersuit for harassment filed by the end of the year, not against the town, but against every local council member who supported the suit personally.

    And if the possibility of making a little money caused a Boobus or two to pay enough attention to politics to join me and make it a class action suit, I'd let them in on it. Because this is a sufficiently clear-cut example of subverting self-rule to set a beautiful precedent in American jurisprudence. Let the politicians learn that this is a representative democracy and it's going to remain one.
    "Stupidity got us into this mess. Why can't it get us out?"--Will Rogers

  6. #5
    The longer it taks to resolve this, the more city council members will realize this is political suicide
    I too have been a close observer of the doings of the Bank of the United States...When you won, you divided the profits amongst you, and when you lost, you charged it to the bank...You are a den of vipers and thieves. I have determined to rout you out, and by the Eternal, I will rout you out!

    Andrew Jackson, 1834

  7. #6
    This can't be. We've been assured that red light cameras aren't about revenue, but about public safety.

    Surely our brave government employees aren't placing the almighty dollar above the will of their constitutents.

  8. #7
    Recall (fire) the voter suing city council (employees) $#@!s.

  9. #8
    You guys just are not voting hard enough.

    SMH - Is it not clear enough yet?



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Czolgosz View Post
    Lol, I love this. Pedal to the metal toward impending blowback.
    LOL @ cops who say: "I just enforce the law. If you don't like the law, work within the system to change it".

  12. #10
    "They're suing their own residents,"
    Which demonstrates the city council views themselves as rulers not public servants.

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    LOL @ cops who say: "I just enforce the law. If you don't like the law, work within the system to change it".
    The system obviouly works in direct opposition to the will of the people.

    This is nothing short of a bully that threatens some form of harm unless you enable them the ability to bully you to begin with. How about we vote to Disban this City Council? Oh, and City Council members votes DO NOT COUNT.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  14. #12
    I actually live in this county

  15. #13
    Just another anecdotal data point supporting the view that few political bodies give the least damn what the rest want.

    This is why those two cops were shot dead in Brooklyn. This is why violence against Themme is going to grow and why Theye will respond with more force.

    Where, exactly, do we think this is going to lead?
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.

    BRING BACK THE BANANA! OF THIS MESSAGE I AM APPROVE.


  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Czolgosz View Post
    Lol, I love this. Pedal to the metal toward impending blowback.
    Those cameras are not inexpensive. A bat and a little elbow grease could cost the county a lot of cash and headaches.

    Not that I'd ever advocate such a thing, mind you.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.

    BRING BACK THE BANANA! OF THIS MESSAGE I AM APPROVE.


  17. #15
    Whether you like the red lights or whether the city council is being stupid is besides the point. I happen to agree with them. The city DOES have the right to decide for themselves.

    I wouldn't think you guys agree with the following:
    “The federal government has jurisdictions over the states, states have jurisdictions over the counties, the counties have jurisdictions over their municipalities, so it’s fairly clear that they have the right to impose laws on those municipalities, especially if those laws are voted into law by the voters,” said Roger Dalsky.
    I thought we were for smaller, more local govt control of things. I hope the city wins. And then promptly the entire city council loses reelection.

  18. #16
    Municipalities have always been odd to me. It seems to me that the county is the smallest level of government. County borders rarely, if ever, change, yet cities may grow and bloat and sometimes take up space in multiple counties. Cities increase taxes on the people within their limits, increase regulations, and justify annexations with a sewer line that no one asked for.. Why anyone would like to live under those terms seems to me to take a serious amount of liberal brainwashing.

    I've stopped doing business in the town I live 1 mile from. The county sheriff deputies are laid-back, down-to-earth folks. The city cops are always running around like they're living through the helicopter attack scene from Apocalypse Now. The same city cop is always sitting in the same Waffle House parking lot every $#@!ing night of the week. So I just go around the whole damn town.

    I've never seen a city founded for the purpose of expanding freedom, and therefore I would argue that counties are in fact the smallest level of government. Theoretically, maybe it SHOULD be that the city is the smallest level of government, but I've seen no indication that's how it works in reality.
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 12-27-2014 at 10:09 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    Some of you still watch the news, and it shows.

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me



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  20. #17
    Major Chicago study finds red light cameras not safer, cause more rear-end injuries
    "This entire program is strictly to generate revenue and always has been," alderman says.

    http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2...-end-injuries/

    -t

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Whether you like the red lights or whether the city council is being stupid is besides the point. I happen to agree with them. The city DOES have the right to decide for themselves.
    Not at all sure what you mean by any of this. What are the metes and bounds of their powers? You refer to the term "rights", but we all know cities have no such things, given they are inanimate things constructed by people.

    Perhaps some clarification and greater specificity are in order.
    Through lives and lives shalt thou pay, O' king.

    Freedom will be stolen from you in a heartbeat if you do not behave as a wild and ravening beast pursuant to its protection.

    "Government" is naught but a mental construct, a script to which people meekly accept and play out their assigned roles by those with no authority to dictate such.

    Pray for reset.

    BRING BACK THE BANANA! OF THIS MESSAGE I AM APPROVE.


  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Whether you like the red lights or whether the city council is being stupid is besides the point. I happen to agree with them. The city DOES have the right to decide for themselves.
    .
    So- who's the city? THAT is the question.
    There is no spoon.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    So- who's the city? THAT is the question.
    it is a Corporation silly.
    never been to corpus Christi? it is in Texas..

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Incorpo...%28business%29
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Ender View Post
    So- who's the city? THAT is the question.
    Well I thought it was rather obvious by the context of my comment. I don't think voters that don't live in the city should be determining laws that affect the streets of the city. If the voters that live in that city want red light cameras, they should be free to make that stupid decision themselves. If they don't want them, they should be free to vote them out.

  25. #22
    Seems like the only people who want them are the bureaucrats.



    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Whether you like the red lights or whether the city council is being stupid is besides the point. I happen to agree with them. The city DOES have the right to decide for themselves.

    I wouldn't think you guys agree with the following:


    I thought we were for smaller, more local govt control of things. I hope the city wins. And then promptly the entire city council loses reelection.
    Local governments can be, and often are, as corrupt as state governments or the federal government.

    Easier to change, you may say, but once a tapeworm becomes buried in the colon, it's hardly a simple 'vote them out.' Especially when the people populating said city are as ignorant or authoritarian-ly inclined as their representatives.
    “The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them.” --George Orwell

    Quote Originally Posted by AuH20 View Post
    In terms of a full spectrum candidate, Rand is leaps and bounds above Trump. I'm not disputing that.
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  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Well I thought it was rather obvious by the context of my comment. I don't think voters that don't live in the city should be determining laws that affect the streets of the city. If the voters that live in that city want red light cameras, they should be free to make that stupid decision themselves. If they don't want them, they should be free to vote them out.
    So at the very least, they should hold another vote which includes just the voters within the cities and see how that one goes.

    I doubt that will happen. Personally, I think it should be illegal for city councils to enter into contracts which exceed the duration of their elected officials' terms of office. I think it should be considered extremely immoral to subject future governance to the constraints of a contract that the people are powerless to change at a later date, which red-light camera contracts usually do. If the council members get voted out, then the contracts they entered into while in office should be null and void until renewed, or allowed to expire when their terms are up. But that's just my $0.02. In a way I see what you're saying. But as I stated before, I suppose depending on where you live, it may determine whether you view the city or the county as the 'most local' level of government. Where I'm from, it's the cities that always get too big for their own good, but that's probably because Georgia has almost as many counties as Texas, and we're a much smaller state geographically..
    Last edited by nobody's_hero; 12-28-2014 at 07:08 AM.
    Quote Originally Posted by timosman View Post
    This is getting silly.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    It started silly.
    T.S. Eliot's The Hollow Men

    Some of you still watch the news, and it shows.

    "One of the penalties for refusing to participate in politics is that you end up being governed by your inferiors." - Plato

    We Are Running Out of Time - Mini Me



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  29. #25
    ./
    Last edited by specsaregood; 05-16-2016 at 10:37 PM.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Well I thought it was rather obvious by the context of my comment. I don't think voters that don't live in the city should be determining laws that affect the streets of the city. If the voters that live in that city want red light cameras, they should be free to make that stupid decision themselves. If they don't want them, they should be free to vote them out.
    Sorry- I was being rhetorical.

    The City should obviously be the PEOPLE who live within the boundaries of said city and they should have the final word- NOT the "corporation" that calls itself a city.
    There is no spoon.

  31. #27
    The county should put a vote to wind-up the city and reabsorb it all back into county lands. That would show those city folks the error of their ways and will teach them to go messing with the county in the future! A lesson to be well-learned. heh

    Either that or all the cities voters should begin proceedings to recall that entire council, including the mayor and calling for the termination of the city manager and his/her assistant managers.

    What a boneheaded council. Seriously lame.
    The object of life is not to be on the side of the majority, but to escape finding one’s self in the ranks of the insane.” — Marcus Aurelius

    They’re not buying it. CNN, you dumb bastards!” — President Trump 2020

    Consilio et Animis de Oppresso Liber



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