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Thread: 2 NYPD Cops Shot in Squad Car in Bed Stuy

  1. #271
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    It's not right, but it just is. If we want to stop this from happening then we need to change direction as a Nation, and muy pronto.
    Cops could end this in one day by standing down: admitting that military tactics, weapons, ranks, the CFC and military ROE have no place in policing "civil society".

    But they won't.
    Last edited by Anti Federalist; 12-22-2014 at 01:11 PM.



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  3. #272
    Quote Originally Posted by GunnyFreedom View Post
    As to this case, since everyone has an opinion, I will share mine.

    This was just a punk kid who thought with his lifestyle he was going to die soon or spend the rest of his life in prison. He figures if he's going out he's gonna go out with a bang where people will be writing Hip Hop songs about him still 20, 30 years down the road. He sees his route to glory and takes it.

    The only reason doing such a thing is even attractive at all is because of the perception that the people are oppressed and the police are the oppressors. If not for that impression, then there would not be the kind of attraction for the man who did this murder. Whether that impression is accurate or not is another debate, I think it is, but that is not a fruitful topic behind this event.
    Agree. This killer was like so many of the other shooters. His goal was to do something infamous before he killed himself.
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  5. #273
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    This is tragic, but in my opinion it's not any more tragic than if two private citizens had been murdered.
    I consider the murder of kops less tragic than the murder of a citizen...

    The kops, like a fireman, sign on knowing that the job carries risk and their salary reflects that risk..

    And that doesn't even take into account my personal disdain of their chosen profession...

  6. #274
    Quote Originally Posted by Weston White View Post
    And another attack in NYPD last night, officer now has a broken arm:

    NYPD Officer Attacked in Precinct House, Suffers Broken Arm
    “No less than 5 MOS (members of service) are guarding precinct doors. Emergency services are being dispatched to all precincts citywide until further notice,” the source added.
    So, 5 cops to protect their own green zone entrance. How much longer before sandbags, concertina wire and mobile barricades?

  7. #275
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I consider the murder of kops less tragic than the murder of a citizen...

    The kops, like a fireman, sign on knowing that the job carries risk and their salary reflects that risk..

    And that doesn't even take into account my personal disdain of their chosen profession...
    I figured you would say that, but the "pro law and order" Republican types would probably even consider me to be a cop hater just for saying that the lives of police officers aren't any more important than the lives of private citizens.

  8. #276
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I figured you would say that, but the "pro law and order" Republican types would probably even consider me to be a cop hater just for saying that the lives of police officers aren't any more important than the lives of private citizens.
    These "pro law and order Republican types" can go $#@! themselves. They are the biggest part of the problem.

  9. #277
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I figured you would say that, but the "pro law and order" Republican types would probably even consider me to be a cop hater just for saying that the lives of police officers aren't any more important than the lives of private citizens.
    Rhett Butler said it better than I can;


  10. #278
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I figured you would say that, but the "pro law and order" Republican types would probably even consider me to be a cop hater just for saying that the lives of police officers aren't any more important than the lives of private citizens.
    TC, I will agree with you on this. Have all the people taking the "screw the cops" attitude forgotten about the oathkeepers? I'm not saying these two that were killed were oathkeepers, but say if they were? Does that change the analysis?
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  11. #279
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    These "pro law and order Republican types" can go $#@! themselves. They are the biggest part of the problem.
    Yep. Nothing like having self-professed "conservatives" cheerleading for unionized government employees with extra-judicial rights.

    Of course, their idea of "government workers" or "union employees" doesn't seem to include the men in blue for some reason.
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  12. #280
    This is, almost predictably, the worst possible timing for something like this.
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  14. #281
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    I agree with everything you said except this. I don't think the "powers that be" are trying to get people to give up drugs. If they were they why protect opium fields in Afghanistan? Why did the U.S. purposefully bring 24 tons of cocaine (the only amount admitted to) from Costa Rica to be "incinerated" when we could have simply sent Costa Rica a new incinerator? (http://news.co.cr/costa-rica-will-st...o-miami/24277/) Why sell guns to Mexican drug lords? Why have the same CIA planes that transport terror suspects to be tortured also carried cocaine? There comes a time when it's not longer sane to try to brush aside every evil this government does as "incompetence." Drug use has been steadily dropping. In fact marijuana use has significantly dropped among teens since some states have legalized marijuana. And yet the policing is increasing. I refuse to believe anymore that this is due to "incompetence." These people setting up these evil policies know what they are doing.
    To be honest, I was using 'drugs' as a place filler for 'whatever bad policy of the month.' I tend to agree with you that us.gov is propping up addiction rates on purpose by securing origin point logistics an enabling drug transportation into the United States.

  15. #282
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Cops could end this in one day by standing down: admitting that military tactics, weapons, ranks, the CFC and military ROE have no place in policing "civil society".

    But they won't.
    Does every cop used militarized equipment and break into people's homes and so forth?

    I doubt it.

    Mind you, I agree that they should quit. Or at least refuse to enforce any laws against victimless crimes, which would lead to them getting fired unless enough of them did it.

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I consider the murder of kops less tragic than the murder of a citizen...

    The kops, like a fireman, sign on knowing that the job carries risk and their salary reflects that risk..

    And that doesn't even take into account my personal disdain of their chosen profession...
    Quote Originally Posted by Traditional Conservative View Post
    I figured you would say that, but the "pro law and order" Republican types would probably even consider me to be a cop hater just for saying that the lives of police officers aren't any more important than the lives of private citizens.
    I am still wrestling internally with this whole issue, but I am absolutely certain I at least some level agree with tod.

    Say two people get into a fight and one kills the other. At some level we understand when this happens. I'm not saying its excusable or that there's no punishment, but at some level its humanly understandable.

    Its also humanly understandable why soldiers kill other soldiers on the field of battle, even though it sucks and is generally immoral when it happens (note that I said "generally.")

    On the other hand, we generally see it as monstrous, unthinkable, when some guy goes out and kills some random person, especially a woman or child.

    Police have, like it or not, think its justified or not, chosen a profession in which they are going to be in conflict with other people. Even if you say the police are completely justified in what they are doing (which I view as an absurd stance to take) they still did choose at some level to engage in combat with other people. I don't know, it seems far more understandable to me why someone would decide to kill a cop than it is for someone to go after a random person who has nothing to do with them in any way. Note that I am NOT saying that makes it OK. But I do get it. That of course would make the "pro law and order" Republicans hate me, but I'm not putting myself in the "its OK to kill cops whenever" camp either. I know you are intelligent enough to understand the nuance of what I'm saying. Most Republicans aren't, which is why I try to avoid talking to them most of the time, because they are aggravating.
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  16. #283
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    TC, I will agree with you on this. Have all the people taking the "screw the cops" attitude forgotten about the oathkeepers? I'm not saying these two that were killed were oathkeepers, but say if they were? Does that change the analysis?
    There are varying degrees of "screw the cops" positions. I don't think we should go around killing cops, and not just because its not practical. I do think that doing so would be ethically wrong. At the same time, I do think that when you decide to take on the badge of a criminal gang, at some level you take responsibility for your actions.

    I don't know enough about oathkeepers to comment. If they actually think that police as they currently stand are constitutional and good at ANY level I'd say they are still well-meaning parts of the problem.

    On the other hand, if they are knowingly going behind enemy (government) lines to subvert the enemy, I think they need to understand that unless we know exactly who they are and what they are doing, they take on the risks associated with the position.

    Is it a tragedy when a well-meaning cop gets killed? Yes. But does it put anger in my soul the way someone who indiscriminately kills civilians does? No, maybe it should but its not. Its kind of like (though this analogy probably makes the cops look better than they should) I continually slap you across the face and you eventually just snap. Is it "OK"? Not really. Is it understandable? Yeah, why the heck did I think repetatively doing that to you would be a good idea?

    And really, the cops, knowingly or not, do far worse than slapping people across the face. They steal and they kidnap. I acknowledge that their ignorance is a mitigating factor, which is why I don't advocate "taking war to them" so to speak, and my Christian faith gives me a little bit of charity there that I understand why non-Christians would not be interested in having, but they still aren't "innocents." This scenario, to be blunt, is not comparable to two children who are playing ball in their backyards getting shot by a sociopath who just likes watching people die. It isn't. The victims were likely victims at SOME LEVEL, but they are by no means "innocent", even by the limited standard of non-aggression.

    I know my middle ground position isn't going to win me any friends either among those who want to hold out that there may be some "good cops", nor among those who want to start shooting yesterday. I'm willing to discuss further and refine based on logic and scripture, as I regularly do. And I love the opportunity to do it with the intelligent people of RPF that are actually thinking as opposed to the zombies that dominate the rest of my life.
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Yep. Nothing like having self-professed "conservatives" cheerleading for unionized government employees with extra-judicial rights.

    Of course, their idea of "government workers" or "union employees" doesn't seem to include the men in blue for some reason.
    That goes for the people here who don't count military as well.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  17. #284
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    That goes for the people here who don't count military as well.
    The moment a soldier, sailor or airman starts waging war on this country's citizenry I'll lend creedence to this position.

  18. #285
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    You know what? I agree. The problem is I have no idea how to make that happen. Do you? Prior to the Rodney King beating I didn't understand why black people rioted everytime a black man got shot. Then the Rodney King video came out. I was certain we had the answer! Video tape the cops, end the "he said/she said" problem inherent in these investigations, we'll get justice when it's deserved, no problem.

    And then the world was introduced to the "Rodney King" defense.

    Step 1: Attack the victim for his actions prior to the police encounter. (Rodney King was high on PCP and speeding and so everything else that happened to him was justified).

    Step 2: Attack the victim for his actions during the encounter: (Rodney King was "resisting". How he was resisting lying on the ground getting beat my multiple officers with batons is something I've never understood.)

    In every case, step 1 and step 2 gets used over and over again whether there is justification or no justification. Obama says the police should all have body cameras. How would that have helped in the Eric Garner case? Even some people here are defending the police position of "It wasn't a chokehold."

    Okay. We ca get an outside prosecutor. Who? Someone from the federal government? Okay. We've just increased the scope of the federal government. Maybe that's necessary.

    People are frustrated. It seems like, in some people's minds, no matter what the police do it's somehow "justified". Crime is at a 20 year low, police killings are at a 11 year high, and yet if you listen to talk radio the police killings are all because of black criminality. Well if that were the case the shouldn't police killings go down as the crime goes down?

    Note I'm not arguing against your position. I agree with it. I just don't see how to make it actually work.
    I know Ferguson was complicated and its hard to sort out what happened beyond a reasonable doubt (note that I am NOT asserting Wilson's innocence nor am I saying he shouldn't have been indicted). But, the fact that the Garner case didn't even get an indictment, and that even the killers of Kelly Thomas somehow managed to walk out when it was even less open to debate than Garner, proves that the system is broken. Even if these were the ONLY cases in which that happened, I would say the system is broken. There is video evidence. These criminals MUST be brought to justice, and the system can't do it. I'm not going to do it, but I wouldn't blame someone who decided he needed to do so, nor could I convict him in good conscience.

    I can see room for constructive debate on whether there are ways to MAKE the system work, and how to go about doing that, but the fact that it isn't working now seems beyond undeniable to me. I honestly want to slap the people (NAP purists forgive me) who try to tell me "the system works." I usually content myself with just laughing at them, and then giving fake apologies for doing so, because they really are idiots. And I know a lot of otherwise intelligent people who are moronic on this issue.

    I'm getting to the point where I only want to discuss political issues with people who at least SORT OF agree with me on this. I enjoy talking to people like TC, who probably think the system can somehow be reformed electorally, I enjoy talking to the fringe like Cantwell who want to take violent action now, and I enjoy talking to pacifists who just wouldn't use violence ever, though I don't agree with any of those positions (note that this is not an exhaustive list of people I enjoy talking to, I'm making a point.) But I don't get any enjoyment anymore out of debating with people or trying to get them to see that don't think there is at least some moral questionability about working as one of the government's enforcers, and that the system is messed up. I'm just getting exhausted and tired of it. What's the point? Bless their hearts, they are morons and not worth my time.
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  19. #286
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    The moment a soldier, sailor or airman starts waging war on this country's citizenry I'll lend creedence to this position.
    Are people from other countries less human?

    No offense tod, but this is the one black mark on an otherwise excellently consistent position (though one I don't agree with.)

    Don't doubt for a second that the military will be used against us. Some people will refuse to comply, but others definitely will.

    But all of them are government employees.

    The weird thing that I don't understand about you, you seem to have more contempt for the janitor or the clerk at a random government building that gets his money from taxation but doesn't personally engage in any violence than you do for the military.

    Why is this? It makes no sense to me. It dumbfounds me. I've got no qualms with someone who takes money from the thieves, though I hope they are benefiting from the transaction more than they are giving back. I do have qualms with people who are willing and able to go kill foreigners when the orders are given, just as I have qualms with people who are willing to imprison, rob, and even kill peaceful Americans when the order is given.

    Is there really an ethical difference? Or do you just value Americans more because you are one?
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  20. #287
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Does every cop used militarized equipment and break into people's homes and so forth?

    I doubt it.
    No.

    So what?

    Did the lowly Unterscharführer at some remote supply depot personally march undesirables into the gas chambers?

    No.

    Did he wear the uniform and is he part of the system that did?

    Yes.

    Therefore is he culpable for the actions of his fellow man?

    Yes.

    I am, in my career, held to task and must comply with laws and regulations that have been enacted as a response to incidents, accidents and negligence of my peers, even though I have no control whatsoever over what they did.

  21. #288
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Are people from other countries less human?

    No offense tod, but this is the one black mark on an otherwise excellently consistent position (though one I don't agree with.)

    Don't doubt for a second that the military will be used against us. Some people will refuse to comply, but others definitely will.

    But all of them are government employees.

    The weird thing that I don't understand about you, you seem to have more contempt for the janitor or the clerk at a random government building that gets his money from taxation but doesn't personally engage in any violence than you do for the military.

    Why is this? It makes no sense to me. It dumbfounds me. I've got no qualms with someone who takes money from the thieves, though I hope they are benefiting from the transaction more than they are giving back. I do have qualms with people who are willing and able to go kill foreigners when the orders are given, just as I have qualms with people who are willing to imprison, rob, and even kill peaceful Americans when the order is given.

    Is there really an ethical difference? Or do you just value Americans more because you are one?
    All country's need a military, to what extent is debatable..

    I actually kind of lean toward the Swiss method of national defense but the necessity of defense isn't something I consider ripe for debate..

    I've noticed that you seem to view the military as individuals who engage in evil doings whereas I view them as nothing more than a tool of government...

    In my view the military, as a tool, is more important than the "Just-Us" system in it's entirety including the janitor.

    The politicians who wield the tool of military might are not worthy of being drawn and quartered, they deserve far worse in my opinion....



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  23. #289
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    The moment a soldier, sailor or airman starts waging war on this country's citizenry I'll lend creedence to this position.
    What about national guard troops?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #290
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    All country's need a military, to what extent is debatable..

    I actually kind of lean toward the Swiss method of national defense but the necessity of defense isn't something I consider ripe for debate..

    I've noticed that you seem to view the military as individuals who engage in evil doings whereas I view them as nothing more than a tool of government...

    In my view the military, as a tool, is more important than the "Just-Us" system in it's entirety including the janitor.

    The politicians who wield the tool of military might are not worthy of being drawn and quartered, they deserve far worse in my opinion....
    We do need defense. We also need justice. I think we both agree that justice is a necessity in society. The question is whether the Just-Us system is actually giving us justice, and the answer is no.

    If the military are a tool, why aren't the police? Why one and not the other?

    I would respect a position that demonizes both and essentially says both should be shot on sight. I wouldn't agree, but you'd be consistent.

    But to say that about police and then sort of excuse the military is inconsistent, just like it would be inconsistent were it the other way around.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  25. #291
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    No.

    So what?

    Did the lowly Unterscharführer at some remote supply depot personally march undesirables into the gas chambers?

    No.

    Did he wear the uniform and is he part of the system that did?

    Yes.

    Therefore is he culpable for the actions of his fellow man?

    Yes.

    I am, in my career, held to task and must comply with laws and regulations that have been enacted as a response to incidents, accidents and negligence of my peers, even though I have no control whatsoever over what they did.
    Are you saying you SHOULD be held responsible for things you had no control over?

    Was every single Nazi a valid target to kill? I don't know about that. I don't think saying "no" means they are totally innocent either.

    The cop who pulls people over for petty traffic infractions because he thinks he's "keeping the roads safe" is a bad guy, but not someone who should be shot.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  26. #292
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    All country's need a military, to what extent is debatable..

    I actually kind of lean toward the Swiss method of national defense but the necessity of defense isn't something I consider ripe for debate..

    I've noticed that you seem to view the military as individuals who engage in evil doings whereas I view them as nothing more than a tool of government...

    In my view the military, as a tool, is more important than the "Just-Us" system in it's entirety including the janitor.

    The politicians who wield the tool of military might are not worthy of being drawn and quartered, they deserve far worse in my opinion....
    Not according to the FF's, who are so revered/worshiped on RPF's. They did not want any standing army-preferring a small militia and a navy.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
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  27. #293
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    No.

    So what?

    Did the lowly Unterscharführer at some remote supply depot personally march undesirables into the gas chambers?

    No.

    Did he wear the uniform and is he part of the system that did?

    Yes.

    Therefore is he culpable for the actions of his fellow man?

    Yes.

    I am, in my career, held to task and must comply with laws and regulations that have been enacted as a response to incidents, accidents and negligence of my peers, even though I have no control whatsoever over what they did.
    You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to Anti Federalist again.
    :/ Wish I could mega- +rep that^^
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  28. #294
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Not according to the FF's, who are so revered/worshiped on RPF's. They did not want any standing army-preferring a small militia and a navy.
    I'm not sure "military" is necessarily synonymous with "standing army."

    I'd be comfortable saying that some type of professional fighting force is probably necessary (whether the FFs thought so or not) but that doesn't mean it has to be provided in a coercive fashion.

    Of course, there's some moral disconnect here for me, in that I think holding nuclear weapons is likely an EFFECTIVE way to avoid an attack, but I still think its IMMORAL for them to exist.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  29. #295
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    We do need defense. We also need justice. I think we both agree that justice is a necessity in society. The question is whether the Just-Us system is actually giving us justice, and the answer is no.

    If the military are a tool, why aren't the police? Why one and not the other?

    I would respect a position that demonizes both and essentially says both should be shot on sight. I wouldn't agree, but you'd be consistent.

    But to say that about police and then sort of excuse the military is inconsistent, just like it would be inconsistent were it the other way around.
    I've gone over this in the past with you and honestly don't see any sense in derailing this thread any more just to rehash old ground...

    I will however address the differences I see between the military and the police;

    The military is supposed to be used for national defense whereas the police are used for civil enforcement, to me that's one hell of a disconnect.

  30. #296
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Of course, there's some moral disconnect here for me, in that I think holding nuclear weapons is likely an EFFECTIVE way to avoid an attack, but I still think its IMMORAL for them to exist.
    huh?
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  32. #297
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Not according to the FF's, who are so revered/worshiped on RPF's. They did not want any standing army-preferring a small militia and a navy.
    Which made perfect sense in the 1700's when any substantial attack would have only arrived via water and when the federal government kept out of foreign affairs.

    "Military" to me is open to interpretation so long as its intention is to repel not attack....(I happen to believe this position would be in concert with what the FF intended given their wording at the time.)

  33. #298
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Yep. Nothing like having self-professed "conservatives" cheerleading for unionized government employees with extra-judicial rights.

    Of course, their idea of "government workers" or "union employees" doesn't seem to include the men in blue for some reason.
    That's signature material!

  34. #299
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    What about national guard troops?
    There's a special place in hell for politicians who use their position to bring military force to bear on the population of their state.

  35. #300
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I don't mean to sound heartless by saying "who cares" but why post this? Criminals commit crimes. Why is this a shock? And, the NYPD victimizes people all the time. I am not saying this is acceptable behavior, but I don't see why this is worth discussing here.
    I'm with you on this. Who cares... at least, any more than one would or ought to when some anonymous "piece of refuse" is found murdered in an alley.

    They were cops. So friggin' what?
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