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Thread: Can a nation-wide corporation ignore a State's laws?

  1. #61
    The state of California had NO right to forbid people from using marijuana (or any other drug) in the first place,

    By the same token, it has NO right to forbid employers from refusing to hire or retain employess who use marijuana (or any other drug) ...



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  3. #62
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    Insofar as the company is citing federal law in defense of its policy, the Tenth Amendment still does not apply - because the US federal government isn't doing anything here, one way or the other. The Tenth Amendment ONLY applies to what the federal government may or may not do - nothing else.
    Okay, makes sense. Was wondering if a plaintiff could use it in an argument in a court of law.

    And even if the Tenth Amendment did apply, all the company would have to do to get around this is to change its defense of the policy so that it did not make reference to federal law at all. (For example, they might defend the policy on the grounds of avoiding exposure to legal or civil liabilities due to the actions of drug-impaired employees. Or if the compnay was privately owned, perhaps the owner might have religious or conscientous objections to drug use. Or etc.)
    Drug impaired employees, for example someone who is drunk, are pretty obvious and can be immediately terminated. This is strictly an off-the-clock issue.

    Also, the company is not "trumping" state law in any case. The company's policy does not conflict with or contradict the state's decision to stop prosecuting and imprisoning marijuana users. Just because the state of California is saying that it will no longer jail marijuana users, it does not follow that employers are therefore forbidden from adopting discriminatory policies with respect to the employment of marijuana users .
    It's more than that. Doctors can prescribe medical marijuana cards to patients, and this company dismisses it out of hand. RSO oil, which is cannabis oil, is widely known to kill cancer, but American doctors are legally forbidden from administering alternative treatments to cancer. Some of them get around it now, in Cali, by prescribing MM cards.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  4. #63
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    And we go back to: find a different employer or start your own business.
    Scrap the entire ADA? I can get behind this argument. But this is really not relevant to this thread. You're discussing legislation; what ought to be lawful. The OP is concerned with enforcement; what is legal.
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    The state of California had NO right to forbid people from using marijuana (or any other drug) in the first place,

    By the same token, it has NO right to forbid employers from refusing to hire or retain employess who use marijuana (or any other drug) ...

    For all intents and purposes I agree. But that doesn't change the fact that an employer who test or fires someone for presumably taking a prescribed medication is (assuming failure to prove need) in violation of the ADA as enacted.
    Last edited by presence; 12-19-2014 at 12:56 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

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    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  5. #64
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    The state of California had NO right to forbid people from using marijuana (or any other drug) in the first place,

    By the same token, it has NO right to forbid employers from refusing to hire or retain employess who use marijuana (or any other drug) ...
    Again I ask you, if a company can dictate to you what you do on your own time, where does it end? If we're going to have laws, they should at the very least be laws that protect our individual freedom. IMO, a company doesn't have the right, anymore than the government does, to take those rights away. And the "just quit, start your own business, find another job" response isn't the only answer to this. It just isn't that cut and dried .
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  7. #65
    ./
    Last edited by specsaregood; 05-16-2016 at 10:37 PM.

  8. #66
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    So, in your opinion, we need another law that forces employers to hire people who use cannabis? I think this issue could be solved in a better way.

    I think, a bigger issue here, based on the comments is, if we're ever going to be a society that believes people have the right to do what they want on their own time, like drinking raw milk (to use one of Ron's examples) or go to a whore house, etc., how is that ever going to happen if employers have the right to dictate to you what you do in your own time? How are they any better than the government?
    They are better than the government because they are not forcibly preventing you from doing anything. They are not coercively punishing you (or threatening to coercively punish you) for doing something you should be (and are) rightfully free to do.

    They are simply saying that if you do something (such as smoke pot), then they will not do something else (such as hire or retain you as an employee). This is not even remotely similar to anything the government does in this regard (such as locking people up in rape-cages - or seizing their property under so-called "civil asset forfetiure" - or killing people - or mangling babies asleep in their play-pens - or etc., etc.)

    They aren't "dictating" to you what you do in your own time. They are saying, "if you want to be employed by us, then don't do X." They have every right to do this - just as you have every right to do X.

    If I say, "I saw you smoking pot somewhere else the other day, and I don't want pot smokers in my home - so get out of my house!" then would you say that I should not be allowed to do that? If I should be allowed to do that, then why shouldn't employers be allowed to do it as well? And if you want to forbid employers from doing that, then don't you have to forbid me from doing that, as well?

    EDIT:
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Again I ask you, if a company can dictate to you what you do on your own time, where does it end? If we're going to have laws, they should at the very least be laws that protect our individual freedom. IMO, a company doesn't have the right, anymore than the government does, to take those rights away. And the "just quit, start your own business, find another job" response isn't the only answer to this. It just isn't that cut and dried .
    Sorry, I didn't see this post by you until after I had replied to the one above. I'll let my answer to that one stand as my answer to this one - to wit: such companies are not "dictating" what you can or can't do on your own time.
    Last edited by Occam's Banana; 12-19-2014 at 01:17 PM.

  9. #67
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    And we go back to: find a different employer or start your own business.
    That's not an answer. Answer the question. How does it make them any different than the government telling us what to do? Because they're private and not public? Why do private organizations have the right to treat us that way but not the government? What's the difference? And don't say: "The difference is you have a choice in the private market." Because that's too simplistic and a cop-out.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  10. #68
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    That's not an answer. Answer the question. How does it make them any different than the government telling us what to do? Because they're private and not public? Why do private organizations have the right to treat us that way but not the government? What's the difference? And don't say: "The difference is you have a choice in the private market." Because that's too simplistic and a cop-out.
    Can you seriously not answer that question yourself?

  11. #69
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    That's not an answer. Answer the question. How does it make them any different than the government telling us what to do? Because they're private and not public? Why do private organizations have the right to treat us that way but not the government? What's the difference? And don't say: "The difference is you have a choice in the private market." Because that's too simplistic and a cop-out.
    So....strippers can force Christian elementary schools to let them keep their day jobs?

    Edit: But I would like to help. What is the name of the company? Why not organize a boycott?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  12. #70
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    And that is all great information. What I would suggest trying first is creating a presentation with all that information and try to get an opportunity to show it to mgmt. at the company. Argue why changing their policy (at the very least in states where it is legal) is the moral thing. At least trying that first is better than defaulting to the legal argument.

    Although, one problem that I know AF has pointed out repeatedly is that a lot of these rules aren't due to mgmt. decisions, but due to insurance policies.
    Yes, I'm aware of what Obamacare is doing to companies that are taking it lying down. This company is definitely lying down with regard to Obamacare. Attempting to appeal to their humanity is always an option, but a bigger fight might be necessary, not only for the sake of the MMcard holder, but for the sake of all the MMcard holders in Cali.
    Last edited by Deborah K; 12-19-2014 at 01:20 PM. Reason: typo
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  13. #71
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Yes, I'm aware of what Obamacare is doing to companies that taking it lying down. This company is definitely lying down with regard to Obamacare. Attempting to appeal to their humanity is always an option, but a bigger fight might be necessary, not only for the sake of the MMcard holder, but for the sake of all the MMcard holders in Cali.
    I wasn't even talking about obamacare.

  14. #72
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    So....strippers can force Christian elementary schools to let them keep their day jobs?
    LOL, say wut? That one went - WOOOOSH!

    Edit: But I would like to help. What is the name of the company? Why not organize a boycott?
    Thanks, but this company is in bed with the city governments who use their services. Their services are essential. They are a waste management corporation.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  16. #73
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post

    I'd like to know from the Constitutional and State law types what they think about this situation.
    I think that pickin' and choosin' which edicts one follows in relation to their labor force is an extremely bad idea...

    Just come right out and state that if someone consumes weed they're fired, don't try and argue law...

    As for the stoner (who I sympathize with) he needs to look elsewhere for work and just let it go......

  17. #74
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    I wasn't even talking about obamacare.
    When you mentioned that insurance companies dictate to private companies, I thought you were referring to medical insurance, since this would kind of be a health issue from the perspective of the company. What insurance were you referring?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  18. #75
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I think that pickin' and choosin' which edicts one follows in relation to their labor force is an extremely bad idea...

    Just come right out and state that if someone consumes weed they're fired, don't try and argue law...

    As for the stoner (who I sympathize with) he needs to look elsewhere for work and just let it go......
    It's more complicated than that, but if you're standing on principle, then I guess that wouldn't matter anyway. Read through the thread. If nothing else, it's interesting. At least to me.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  19. #76
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Can you seriously not answer that question yourself?
    Specs, I already know what I think. I'd like to know what you think.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  20. #77
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Again I ask you, if a company can dictate to you what you do on your own time, where does it end? If we're going to have laws, they should at the very least be laws that protect our individual freedom. IMO, a company doesn't have the right, anymore than the government does, to take those rights away. And the "just quit, start your own business, find another job" response isn't the only answer to this. It just isn't that cut and dried .
    Were I the companies attorney I'd couch the argument that the company didn't give a $#@! about what you did on your own time but whatever chemical detritus you came to work harboring was the companies concern...

  21. #78
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    When you mentioned that insurance companies dictate to private companies, I thought you were referring to medical insurance, since this would kind of be a health issue from the perspective of the company. What insurance were you referring?
    Take your pick:
    Property
    Workers Compensation
    General Liability
    Professional Liability
    Does the company insure key employees? life insurance
    Does the business own/run vehicles? auto insurance

    Probably more in specialized fields.

    edit: I recall back in the .com days. at a startup I was working at, we had a free soda machine with a "beer" button. Its was fun, we all used it responsibly; but sometimes at the end of the day people would gather in the break room and drink a beer together.
    Then we were getting ready to go public, and some suits came in, include an insurance guy and he saw the button and freaked out. We had to get rid of the button and beer in order to qualify for some business insurance they the bankers were requiring us to hold to IPO. It was a sad day.
    Last edited by specsaregood; 12-19-2014 at 01:31 PM.

  22. #79
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    LOL, say wut? That one went - WOOOOSH!
    Sorry. Let me explain. If a company can't fire someone for doing something on his/her own time because it doesn't violate state law (medical marijuana), then doesn't that mean a company can't fire someone for doing something on his/her own time that doesn't violate state or federal law (stripping)?

    Of course is your argument is couched solely in the "medical necessity" argument then I suppose that's somewhat different. I have to wonder though, will company plans eventually be required to cover medical marijuana?

    Thanks, but this company is in bed with the city governments who use their services. Their services are essential. They are a waste management corporation.
    Well that's the answer. Sufficient pressure needs to be put on city counsel members to dump the company. If the medical marijuana lobby is strong enough, a statewide ballot measure to bar companies that discriminate against medical marijuana from getting state and local contracts.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  23. #80
    When I read this thread it gets me to thinking that if libertarians and anarchists ever run the roost then the country may very well become more of a tyrannical state than it is now. And that is saying something because the two establishment parties have pretty much allowed for industry and corporations to repatriate our legal and political processes in their favor by way of the federal government. Ultimately, it just comes down to growth versus survival. We The People, as our framers understood them to be, have gradually had their identity hijacked and stolen from them in the representation department. It's really an unfortunate truth that libertarianism does, in fact, serve as the stalking horse for fascism itself. Is a shame.
    Last edited by Natural Citizen; 12-19-2014 at 01:51 PM.



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  25. #81
    Quote Originally Posted by Occam's Banana View Post
    They are better than the government because they are not forcibly preventing you from doing anything. They are not coercively punishing you (or threatening to coercively punish you) for doing something you should be (and are) rightfully free to do.

    They are simply saying that if you do something (such as smoke pot), then they will not do something else (such as hire or retain you as an employee). This is not even remotely similar to anything the government does in this regard (such as locking people up in rape-cages - or seizing their property under so-called "civil asset forfetiure" - or killing people - or mangling babies asleep in their play-pens - or etc., etc.)

    They aren't "dictating" to you what you do in your own time. They are saying, "if you want to be employed by us, then don't do X." They have every right to do this - just as you have every right to do X.

    If I say, "I saw you smoking pot somewhere else the other day, and I don't want pot smokers in my home - so get out of my house!" then would you say that I should not be allowed to do that? If I should be allowed to do that, then why shouldn't employers be allowed to do it as well? And if you want to forbid employers from doing that, then don't you have to forbid me from doing that, as well?

    EDIT:


    Sorry, I didn't see this post by you until after I had replied to the one above. I'll let my answer to that one stand as my answer to this one - to wit: such companies are not "dictating" what you can or can't do on your own time.
    Here's the problem I have with privatizing everything: Tyranny can take more than one form. And I'm not interested in exchanging one form of tyranny for another. For all of you who think private business has the right to dictate what someone does off the clock, in my mind you're compromising the principle of individual freedom - that is - you'll accept dictating someone's behavior on their own time - as long as it's done in the market. Allowing that thinking to be acceptable opens the door to more of the same. And voila! We eventually end up right where we are.

    Rather than accepting it in any form, I believe we should fight it where it is, regardless of whether it's a private business or the government.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  26. #82
    Quote Originally Posted by specsaregood View Post
    Well as a business owner, I resent the idea that you think I shouldn't be able to fire any employee for whatever reason and shouldn't be able to require drug testing as condition of employment. And I'm certainly no ancap.
    I don't blame you, and I'm right here working toward that with you. But in the meantime, the lady is trying to use one stupid law as a lever to leverage us a little more breathing room with respect to another stupid law. And I like it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Here's the problem I have with privatizing everything: Tyranny can take more than one form.
    Don't get too damned theoretical, the OP will get pissed at you

    I think the ADA provision above will work unless some other regulation that triggers an exception applies. For example, I'd bet hard money that there are certain DOT, NHTSA and FRA regulations that the ADA itself says trump everything.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 12-19-2014 at 01:41 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  27. #83
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    OK in what sense?

    These are all substances. People all have the perfect and absolute right (and uninfringible ability!) to have whatever attitudes regarding these substances they wish. And people have the right to associate with other people taking into account whatever they wish, including whatever attitudes they have regarding these substances.
    Why? Because said substances are sanctioned by the fedgov? What makes the right to use these substances superior to the right to use cannabis, which is now legal (for all intents and purposes) in Cali?
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  28. #84
    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I don't blame you, and I'm right here working toward that with you. But in the meantime, the lady is trying to use one stupid law as a lever to leverage us a little more breathing room with respect to another stupid law. And I like it.
    Thank you. I think....
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  29. #85
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Were I the companies attorney I'd couch the argument that the company didn't give a $#@! about what you did on your own time but whatever chemical detritus you came to work harboring was the companies concern...
    lol "chemical detritus"

    that's all carry on

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  30. #86
    Sorry, I edited too slow.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post
    I think the ADA provision above will work unless some other regulation that triggers an exception applies. For example, I'd bet hard money that there are certain DOT, NHTSA and FRA regulations that the ADA itself says trump everything.
    So, it comes down to what this person does for a living.
    Last edited by acptulsa; 12-19-2014 at 01:46 PM.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  31. #87
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    Here's the problem I have with privatizing everything: Tyranny can take more than one form. And I'm not interested in exchanging one form of tyranny for another. For all of you who think private business has the right to dictate what someone does off the clock, in my mind you're compromising the principle of individual freedom - that is - you'll accept dictating someone's behavior on their own time - as long as it's done in the market. Allowing that thinking to be acceptable opens the door to more of the same. And voila! We eventually end up right where we are.

    Rather than accepting it in any form, I believe we should fight it where it is, regardless of whether it's a private business or the government.
    The issue isn't the goal. It's the method. That and the likelihood of success.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  32. #88
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Sorry. Let me explain. If a company can't fire someone for doing something on his/her own time because it doesn't violate state law (medical marijuana), then doesn't that mean a company can't fire someone for doing something on his/her own time that doesn't violate state or federal law (stripping)?

    Of course is your argument is couched solely in the "medical necessity" argument then I suppose that's somewhat different. I have to wonder though, will company plans eventually be required to cover medical marijuana?



    Well that's the answer. Sufficient pressure needs to be put on city counsel members to dump the company. If the medical marijuana lobby is strong enough, a statewide ballot measure to bar companies that discriminate against medical marijuana from getting state and local contracts.
    So, your angle is to go after them with public pressure. That's a possibility.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!



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  34. #89
    As an aside... its really $#@!ed up how society is conditioned to believe that state deemed "recreational" substances nearly always pose adverse effects on one's ability to work and prescribed "medical" substances nearly always pose positive effects on one's ability to work... which is further complicated by the fact that what constitutes medicine is defined by someone outside of oneself; namely a "licensed" "doctor". It seems so anecdotal and anti qualitative to rely upon what some doctor prescribes as the primary test in what improves or detriments work performance.

    Personally, I've always been more productive after an unsanctioned safety meeting. Maybe I have medical issues? LOL; no such thing for my doctor to prescribe in my state. SMDH even if there was.
    Last edited by presence; 12-19-2014 at 02:00 PM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  35. #90
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    The issue isn't the goal. It's the method. That and the likelihood of success.
    The issue should be the method AND the goal. The likelihood of success for prohibition has already been played out. And so has "forming a more perfect union" under supposed self-governance. What I'm stating is, anytime our personal liberties are trifled with, as in this case, it doesn't really matter who the source is. It should be quelled if we really love freedom.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

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