View Poll Results: Does Torture Prevent Terror?

Voters
49. You may not vote on this poll
  • Yes

    1 2.04%
  • No

    48 97.96%
Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast
Results 1 to 30 of 57

Thread: Does Torture Prevent Terror?

  1. #1

    Does Torture Prevent Terror?

    Simple question, and the foundation of the Legalization of Torture. Debate.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    I'd have to say its about as effective as droning schools and cluster bombing goat herding tribes.

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"



  4. #3
    A more interesting wording for this poll would have been "Is torture ever an effective interrogation tactic?"
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  5. #4
    I don't think too many on this forum will vote "yes". Nothing about Western foreign policy has done anything to prevent terrorism, by any empirical measure I'm aware of.

  6. #5
    Too complicated to answer yes or no.

    95% or more of the time, no it doesn't.

    I could build scenarios and so on. But the impossible absolutists on RPF will just call me names again.

    But really that 1 in 100 time it might be necessary, so I don't rule out it out.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    A more interesting wording for this poll would have been "Is torture ever an effective interrogation tactic?"
    It would be more interesting, but also more manipulative by distorting the perspective. I could have also rephrased "torture" as "Enhanced Interrogation Tactics" as a way to validate the methods performed by simply altering its phrasing. Processed Meat sounds less disgusting (but still somewhat disgusting to a few) than "Pink Slime". Policy and Contract insinuate the idea that something is Legal. It is just as much Policy for a Loan Shark to break someones kneecaps, despite the actions of the Policy not being deemed legal, unless youre a Cop. It is the phrasing that is critically important, and I am doing my best to not sugar coat it at all.

    If you want, we can try a different "phrasing" in a separate poll, and instead of not sugar coating it, go the other way and sugar coat it and fluff it up as much as is possible. I think the differences in the outcomes may be quite different than those in this poll...
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  8. #7
    If they capture enemy combatants from overseas that was actively engaging in "terrorist" activities.. maybe.. but if they just kidnap some baker of a bakery in the middle of the night, then yes. there would be a problem.

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard13mm View Post
    If they capture enemy combatants from overseas that was actively engaging in "terrorist" activities.. maybe.. but if they just kidnap some baker of a bakery in the middle of the night, then yes. there would be a problem.

    Tribal Leader: Hey, that goat in our neighbor's herd looks a lot like the one you lost last month! Those a$$holes stole our goat! Tell the Americans that they are jihads that work for al qaeda - teach those thieves a lesson.

    US: Off to gitmo - time for a chower...

    ^ The US plays the useful idiot here

    Gulag Chief:
    "Article 58-1a, twenty five years... What did you get it for?"
    Gulag Prisoner: "For nothing at all."
    Gulag Chief: "You're lying... The sentence for nothing at all is 10 years"





  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by alucard13mm View Post
    If they capture enemy combatants from overseas that was actively engaging in "terrorist" activities.. maybe.. but if they just kidnap some baker of a bakery in the middle of the night, then yes. there would be a problem.
    Im not sure that would be that effective either.

    Fighting, as in Active Combat, thats one thing. But after you've won your fight, continued fighting in the form of torture only perpetuates the very reason they hate us. It is possible that information can be extracted, but it isnt the only possible way to extract said information. What happens is when we do take the Baker, as mentioned, then torture the $#@! out of them until they say what is expected, we are creating at least as many new terrorists to replace the one just took out. It is the Violence and Fear Downward Spiral. As far as I am concerned, it is no way to end the "War on Terror", and we do it to eternally perpetuate it. It is no way for us to Lead by Example.

    Next problem is our Govt only hears what it wants to hear. They dont give two $#@!s about why those people became Terrorists to begin with. The only thing they want to hear out of the Terrorists that they Torture is something that will validate the existence of Torturers.

    Now, how is Torture not a form of Terrorism in and of itself?
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    It would be more interesting, but also more manipulative by distorting the perspective. I could have also rephrased "torture" as "Enhanced Interrogation Tactics" as a way to validate the methods performed by simply altering its phrasing. Processed Meat sounds less disgusting (but still somewhat disgusting to a few) than "Pink Slime". Policy and Contract insinuate the idea that something is Legal. It is just as much Policy for a Loan Shark to break someones kneecaps, despite the actions of the Policy not being deemed legal, unless youre a Cop. It is the phrasing that is critically important, and I am doing my best to not sugar coat it at all.

    If you want, we can try a different "phrasing" in a separate poll, and instead of not sugar coating it, go the other way and sugar coat it and fluff it up as much as is possible. I think the differences in the outcomes may be quite different than those in this poll...
    I was getting more to the distinction between the general effect that torture has on preventing terrorism, versus the specific effect that torture can have in an individual case. Nothing can really prevent terrorism in general, and torture can have the opposite effect by inciting more blowback. In specific cases though, if it can be an effective method to extract information, then it could prevent a particular act of terrorism.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  13. #11
    Torture is a battlefield tactic only.

    there is NO other appropriate use.
    I did not go to Nam, but I did learn from those who were there...


    Last edited by HVACTech; 12-18-2014 at 06:32 PM. Reason: wrong vid.
    "If you can't explain it simply, you don't understand it well enough." - Albert Einstein

    "for I have sworn upon the altar of god eternal hostility against every form of tyranny over the mind of man. - Thomas Jefferson.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    But really that 1 in 100 time it might be necessary, so I don't rule out it out.

    All presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously; for the law holds it better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent party suffer.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    All presumptive evidence of felony should be admitted cautiously; for the law holds it better that ten guilty persons escape, than that one innocent party suffer.
    It's a good quote, but it doesn't really apply here. No one advocates torture for the purpose of punishing guilty people -- the only justification being offered by some has to do with protecting other innocent people.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  16. #14
    There certainly are scenarios where torture and all sorts of other brutalities may be justified. If there really is a ticking bomb scenario with a person in custody who knows where it is and hundreds or even thousands of innocent lives in the balance, torture might be the way to go. The thing is, life isn't an episode of 24, regardless of how much neocons want to convince us it is.

  17. #15
    I don't think it's ever one of those things where it's all or nothing, that either it always works or never works. Hardly anything is like that. It's like asking whether Michael Jordan ever missed a free throw. Yeah, but not very often.

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by ThePaleoLibertarian View Post
    There certainly are scenarios where torture and all sorts of other brutalities may be justified. If there really is a ticking bomb scenario with a person in custody who knows where it is and hundreds or even thousands of innocent lives in the balance, torture might be the way to go. The thing is, life isn't an episode of 24, regardless of how much neocons want to convince us it is.
    Problem is, unless you have access to classified intelligence, you aren't in a position to know whether we do or don't in fact have ticking time bomb (or equivalent) scenarios going on.

    To quote jmdrake from the thread in the religion forum:
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    You don't have enough information to truly declare that the results of torture under these circumstances wouldn't match what was needed to be justified under your moral calculus.
    Of course, I am quite skeptical about it as well, but hence the dilemma. It is unwise to blindly trust the CIA to do the right thing, but it is also erroneous to make a claim about the situation surrounding an instance of torture that would be impossible for you to know.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    you would have to be an immoral person to the core to think torture in this context is somehow justified.

    You can give me all the possible scenarios you want, and it would still be immoral.

  21. #18
    I'm against it. It makes me sick to think about. No $#@!ing way.

    HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS!

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by JK/SEA View Post
    you would have to be an immoral person to the core to think torture in this context is somehow justified.

    You can give me all the possible scenarios you want, and it would still be immoral.
    ?
    So are you thinking that there is a context for which torture would be justified (but that this context isn't it), or are you saying it would still be immoral in any context?
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  23. #20
    Torture does not prevent terror.

    Just ask Nick Christie, an American citizen who went through pepper spray-boarding if it prevents terror.

    If anything, it causes terror.
    Quote Originally Posted by Sister Miriam Godwinson View Post
    We Must Dissent.

  24. #21
    Torture gets intelligence, intelligence can lead to preventing terrorism. The problem is that the intelligence is forced and therefore not reliable. It could potentially, but how would you know? I would think it would just confuse you even more, thats probably why it took 10 years to find 1 guy.
    A society that places equality before freedom with get neither; A society that places freedom before equality will yield high degrees of both

    Make a move and plead the 5th because you can't plead the 1st

  25. #22
    torture is terror.
    "I know the urge to arm yourself, because that’s what I did. I was trained in firearms. When I walked to the hospital when my husband was sick, I carried a concealed weapon. I made the determination that if somebody was going to try to take me out I was going to take them with me."

    Diane Feinstein, 1995

  26. #23
    For some interesting insights into the results of torture, check out the film "Unthinkable" if you can find a copy without the original ending edited out.
    Last edited by Suzu; 12-18-2014 at 04:28 AM.

  27. #24
    No , it will not , yes it will breed further violence.



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Lets say that torture is effective, and the President was faced with an imminent nuke in a city threat.

    If torture is going to disarm the threat, the the ethical path is for the President to order the torture, disable the threat, and then to surrender himself to police custody along with the entire chain of command that went along with it, and go to jail for as long as is deemed appropriate.

    That is accountability, that is leadership, that is the rule of law.

    Whether it is effective or not is immaterial.

    If people are ordering illegal things or carrying out illegal orders, then they should be will to go to jail for it.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  30. #26
    And what would have made said people want to nuke us to begin with? Are they just jealous of all our Freedoms? Or maybe this conflict is self sustaining and never ending and we do not listen to reason or random acts of peace? I think it is because they are sitting on something we want (*cough*, oil) and that gives the powers that be justifiable cause to make all people the enemy so TPTB can take what they want from their enemies. Every president, EVERY President since what, Kennedy, has attacked Iraq? And we still seriously sit here and wonder why they hate us? Of all the people you have ever heard of in your entire lives, have you ever heard of any that wanted to nuke Canada? How about the Dominican Republic? Ever hear of a Terrorist who has something against the lone state of Idaho, but no beef with the rest of the USA? I rather doubt it. If we truly understand why they hate us, maybe we can do something about it then. This BS of "they hate us for our Freedoms" has to stop because people stop thinking when they are fed any answer, even if it is the wrong one.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by HVACTech View Post
    Torture is a battlefield tactic only.
    ^^^^^^^^^^^^This!^^^^^^^^^^^^

    Politicians claiming the country is at war with ideas or behaviors are insane!

    War is waged against people, it's ugly, visceral and bloody and should never be entered into foolheartedly.

    Torture is a tool of war, politicians who advocate for it's use outside of a war footing must be punished, SEVERELY!

  32. #28
    Maybe those that think they have the authority to justify torture ought try getting waterboarded a few times before they condemn people and create even more Terrorists.
    1776 > 1984

    The FAILURE of the United States Government to operate and maintain an
    Honest Money System , which frees the ordinary man from the clutches of the money manipulators, is the single largest contributing factor to the World's current Economic Crisis.

    The Elimination of Privacy is the Architecture of Genocide

    Belief, Money, and Violence are the three ways all people are controlled

    Quote Originally Posted by Zippyjuan View Post
    Our central bank is not privately owned.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by DamianTV View Post
    Maybe those that think they have the authority to justify torture ought try getting waterboarded a few times before they condemn people and create even more Terrorists.
    I'm more of the opinion that Vlad's techniques should be employed against politicians who promote war-like behavior without a declaration of war...

  34. #30
    hXXp://www.dailykos.com/story/2014/12/16/1351969/-Cartoon-When-is-torture-torture-A-thought-experiment#

    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

Page 1 of 2 12 LastLast


Similar Threads

  1. Investigation Finds CIA Made Doctors Torture Terror Suspects
    By Lucille in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 11-05-2013, 02:06 PM
  2. Replies: 5
    Last Post: 10-23-2013, 06:54 PM
  3. Replies: 2
    Last Post: 05-17-2013, 10:12 AM
  4. CIA Drones Attack Pakistan to Prevent Terror Attack in Europe
    By FrankRep in forum World News & Affairs
    Replies: 1
    Last Post: 09-29-2010, 06:05 PM
  5. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 08-20-2009, 05:31 PM

Select a tag for more discussion on that topic

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •