Can a Christian support torture?

[Christian Liberty]

Note: This thread is primarily for those who consider themselves to be Christians. Those who don't believe in Christianity in any form (in other words, they do not consider themselves to be Christians) are welcome to comment, but will likely not understand the dilemma as to them "Christian" may not have an absolute meaning.

I have several friends who have responded to the whole CIA torture bit, not by denying that torture occurred, but by saying "torture is justified if it saves American lives."

I spent some time last night reading about torture... so I'm more sensetive to its horror than usual, but...

Is it even possible for a saved person to say torture is OK?

Poll coming:

[helmuth_hubener]

Christian

Christianity

Is it even possible for a saved person

I think that these are technical terms of art which for you have some very special, technical definitions. These definitions are hard for the rest of us to understand and they exclude most of us. Including, most emphatically, myself.

But I would say that I do not support institutional torture. And I do not believe that a true follower of Jesus could support institutional torture. A correct understanding of the teachings would preclude that, in my opinion. But, others have other interpretations and disagree with mine.

[Christian Liberty]

I think that these are technical terms of art which for you have some very special, technical definitions. These definitions are hard for the rest of us to understand and they exclude most of us. Including, most emphatically, myself.

But I would say that I do not support institutional torture. And I do not believe that a true follower of Jesus could support institutional torture. A correct understanding of the teachings would preclude that, in my opinion. But, others have other interpretations and disagree with mine.

Valid point. I'd appreciate any language that would make this conversation easier to understand. Let me put it this way. From a Biblical perspective, would we say that someone who says "torture is morally OK" is still going to heaven? Mind you, when I ask that question, I am not assuming that "believing torture is wrong" is some kind of work someone has to perform to be saved. Rather, I am asking if someone who has been saved by Christ could possibly think torture is OK.

[William Tell]

Note: This thread is primarily for those who consider themselves to be Christians. Those who don't believe in Christianity in any form (in other words, they do not consider themselves to be Christians) are welcome to comment, but will likely not understand the dilemma as to them "Christian" may not have an absolute meaning.

I have several friends who have responded to the whole CIA torture bit, not by denying that torture occurred, but by saying "torture is justified if it saves American lives."

I spent some time last night reading about torture... so I'm more sensetive to its horror than usual, but...

Is it even possible for a saved person to say torture is OK?

Poll coming:

I really hate polls like this. Do I think torture is Christian? NO! it is barbaric, and cowardly in my opinion. It is also treasonous and unpatriotic as it violates the Constitution. But... I think it is less bad for a person to voice support for immoral things than it is to do immoral things.

So, FF, do you think that a Christian can ever sin? I mean, the Bible says if we love him we will keep his commandments, do you take that to mean that any sin means we are not Christian? Obviously we are not supposed to, and sin is not something that is acceptable in Christianity. But I don't turn around and say someone is not a Christian at all because he did some particular sin. Now, when an entire life is centered around things that seem the opposite of Christianity... I think the actions of someone like George Bush or Barack Obama tell us who's will they do.

[William Tell]

And I really am ticked off today, seeing all these "conservatives" on Twitter who say they love the 2nd amendment. Posting stuff in support of actions which are forbidden in the 8th amendment.

[Christian Liberty]

I really hate polls like this. Do I think torture is Christian? NO! it is barbaric, and cowardly in my opinion. It is also treasonous and unpatriotic as it violates the Constitution. But... I think it is less bad for a person to voice support for immoral things than it is to do immoral things.

So, FF, do you think that a Christian can ever sin? I mean, the Bible says if we love him we will keep his commandments, do you take that to mean that any sin means we are not Christian? Obviously we are not supposed to, and sin is not something that is acceptable in Christianity. But I don't turn around and say someone is not a Christian at all because he did some particular sin. Now, when an entire life is centered around things that seem the opposite of Christianity... I think the actions of someone like George Bush or Barack Obama tell us who's will they do.

Oh, Christians can sin, and yes, that can include giving in to the pressure and torturing someone in a life or death situation. Heck, David committed murder for literally no good reason, yet he repented, and he was saved.

But... I don't know... torture just strikes me as the most obviously immoral thing anyone can support... Its like justifying a lifetime of adultery, only worse.

[Christian Liberty]

And I really am ticked off today, seeing all these "conservatives" on Twitter who say they love the 2nd amendment. Posting stuff in support of actions which are forbidden in the 8th amendment.

Same here. BTW: I didn't actually answer my own question. I am not convinced "yes" is the wrong answer. But I do think its a question that needs to be thought through more. 1 Corinthians 5 says that those who "call themselves a believer" and yet engage in various immoral acts should be shunned... where's the line?

[William Tell]

Oh, Christians can sin, and yes, that can include giving in to the pressure and torturing someone in a life or death situation. Heck, David committed murder for literally no good reason, yet he repented, and he was saved.

But... I don't know... torture just strikes me as the most obviously immoral thing anyone can support... Its like justifying a lifetime of adultery, only worse.

So, is it worse to "support" torture through a post on Twitter, or actually commit adultery? Or any 'lesser' sin for that matter.
And like I said, I hate torture too.

[Ronin Truth]

WWJD?

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

[Christian Liberty]

So, is it worse to "support" torture through a post on Twitter, or actually commit adultery?

Good point. Counterpoint: Is it worse to spend an ENTIRE LIFETIME supporting torture and never repent, vs committing adultery one time and then repenting.

BTW: I know the difficulties with categorizing sins. And, I'm still trying to learn here to. I post this thread in search of answers, not to preach them.

Or any 'lesser' sin for that matter.

Every sin, on principle, separates us from God. But we're supposed to deal with different sins in different ways.

1 Corinthians 5 gives us a list of sins which a person who does not repent from should excommunicate from the church. Do we not follow this command because "we all sin"? While I believe every sin is enough to separate us from God, I do believe there are certain sins that a believer will not be characterized by.

And like I said, I hate torture too.

I know. I'm glad.

[otherone]

WWJD?

"By their fruits, ye shall know them."

[William Tell]

Good point. Counterpoint: Is it worse to spend an ENTIRE LIFETIME supporting torture and never repent, vs committing adultery one time and then repenting.

I think without question committing adultery is worse than voicing support for torture in a way that does not effect policy. We are not talking about actually torturing here.

Adultery is listed in the 10 commandments, and if you commit it and repent, you will still have ruined the marriage of 2 other people. The fact that you repent and God forgives you, does not undo the harm you have caused.

Supporting torture when you have no effect on policy is not that important in my opinion. Its not like we are talking about Dick Cheney here, we are talking about nobodies. Now, if they vote for Dick Cheney, that is obviously not a good thing. But torture is not something most of us come into contact with personally.

I certainly think its good to oppose torture, and talk about such important issues with believers. I just would not call someone a non Christian just because he has an opinion on an issue that he will never have an effect on.

[VIDEODROME]

Maybe in the Afterlife

[Christian Liberty]

I think without question committing adultery is worse than voicing support for torture in a way that does not effect policy. We are not talking about actually torturing here.

Adultery is listed in the 10 commandments, and if you commit it and repent, you will still have ruined the marriage of 2 other people. The fact that you repent and God forgives you, does not undo the harm you have caused.

Supporting torture when you have no effect on policy is not that important in my opinion. Its not like we are talking about Dick Cheney here, we are talking about nobodies. Now, if they vote for Dick Cheney, that is obviously not a good thing. But torture is not something most of us come into contact with personally.

I certainly think its good to oppose torture, and talk about such important issues with believers. I just would not call someone a non Christian just because he has an opinion on an issue that he will never have an effect on.

What if somebody said adultery was OK but didn't do it?

[staerker]

Let me know when y'all have quantified every sin in a spreadsheet, and ordered them with respect to repulsiveness.

[William Tell]

What if somebody said adultery was OK but didn't do it?

Then he would be wrong, but would not have committed adultery.

[William Tell]

Let me know when y'all have quantified every sin in a spreadsheet, and ordered them with respect to repulsiveness.

That's funny.

[William Tell]

Then he would be wrong, but would not have committed adultery.

Its a bad example anyway, since the Bible is so clear on adultery.

[Crashland]

The question is not whether a true Christian can support torture -- the question is whether a true Christian can decide to choose between two evils (the lesser). I voted Yes, but being here on RPF I would imagine the response would be disproportionately "no", at least disproportionally compared to the general population. Many libertarians don't like choosing between two evils :-P

[HVACTech]

That's funny.

mebbe we need a poll to measure support for torture on RPF's?
I have not seen any.
unless of course, voting is an act of torture.

[Christian Liberty]

Then he would be wrong, but would not have committed adultery.

Would you at least question whether the guy who says that is Christian?

[specsaregood]

mebbe we need a poll to measure support for torture on RPF's?
I have not seen any.
unless of course, voting is an act of torture.

If you do, then you need to be careful to define torture. many of the pro-kill maniacs are arguing that what the CIA did wasn't torture and that they too against torture.

in the breitbart thing they are arguing that it is only torture if you only want to inflict pain, as long as you have a goal of extracting information then its all good.

[Crashland]

If you do, then you need to be careful to define torture. many of the pro-kill maniacs are arguing that what the CIA did wasn't torture and that they too against torture.

in the breitbart thing they are arguing that it is only torture if you only want to inflict pain, as long as you have a goal of extracting information then its all good.

I don't understand how these people think like that. If they are going to try and justify it, by all means make the argument, but to try and weasel around calling it for what it is, is intellectually dishonest. And it's an insult to any of our own soldier POWs who have been subject to "enhanced interrogation" in other countries, to tell them it's not torture.

[HVACTech]

If you do, then you need to be careful to define torture. many of the pro-kill maniacs are arguing that what the CIA did wasn't torture and that they too against torture.

in the breitbart thing they are arguing that it is only torture if you only want to inflict pain, as long as you have a goal of extracting information then its all good.

it is my understanding, that polluting the local language is a propaganda tactic.
it confuses people when they cannot communicate.
wrangling over the exact meaning of the words used. gives power.
is this "torture" ?



no.

[mosquitobite]

I argued with a guy from my church earlier today and said how can a nation that professes to be a so-called Christian nation tolerate such barbarism? How is it we would condemn an Arab for these acts and yet look the other way when it is our own? How do we chant that they are savages and yet have such a disconnect from our own savagery?

No tax dollars for abortion, but by golly it's ok to fund crimes against humanity!

[Christian Liberty]

I argued with a guy from my church earlier today and said how can a nation that professes to be a so-called Christian nation tolerate such barbarism? How is it we would condemn an Arab for these acts and yet look the other way when it is our own? How do we chant that they are savages and yet have such a disconnect from our own savagery?

No tax dollars for abortion, but by golly it's ok to fund crimes against humanity!

I refused to even debate this one with people at my school. I'm too angry to debate this right now. Not with its supporters. I'd rather discuss with people who agree this is barbaric on what the right way of dealing with the people who support it is.

From the CNN page:

A glimpse of these techniques details how the CIA employed sleep deprivation to wear down victims: It "involved keeping detainees awake for up to 180 hours,usually standing or in stress positions, at times with their hands shackled above their heads."
Other techniques included "rectal rehydration," "ice water 'baths,'" and threatening detainees with threats to harm detainees' families, including threats to "sexually abuse the mother of a detainee," according to the summary of the report.
Related:'This is not America'
Other psychological tactics involved keeping detainees in pitch-black rooms "with loud noise or music and only a bucket to use for human waste."
And the rooms were cold -- freezing.
One detainee, "who had been held partially nude and chained to a concrete floor" died in Nov. 2002 from suspected hypothermia.
CIA detainees who underwent these interrogation tactics were later found to experience "hallucinations, paranoia, insomnia and attempts at self-harm and self-mutilation."
Medical personnel were sidelined and their concerns quieted when it came to coercive interrogations -- which the report says took precedent.
The waterboardings of 9/11 mastermind Khalid Sheikh Mohammed became, according to the report,"a series of near-drownings." Mohammed was waterboarded at least 183 times.
Related:McCain makes passionate defense for torture report's release
Another detainee, Abu Zubaydah, became unconscious and nearly died while he was waterboarded by CIA personnel.
"In at least one waterboarding session, Abu Zubaydah 'became completely unresponsive, with bubbles rising through his open, full mouth,'" the committee reports. "[He] remained unresponsive until medical intervention, when he regained consciousness and expelled "copious amounts of liquid."
Videotape of Zubaydah's two waterboarding sessions during a 21-hour period disappeared from the CIA's records.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/12/09/politi...epage-t&page=0

I cannot fathom how a decent person could be OK with this whether Christian or not...

[Dr.3D]

Let me know when y'all have quantified every sin in a spreadsheet, and ordered them with respect to repulsiveness.

They are all equally wrong to a just God.

[pcosmar]

Can a Christian support torture?

I do not believe so.

it is possible for someone professing to be a Christian to do so,, many have.

I am not the final judge. And it is my consolation that there is one.

[Christian Liberty]

They are all equally wrong to a just God.

So you are saying that somebody who steals a pack of bubble gum is in the same moral category as someone who engages in brutal torture?

That's insane, and its not Biblical. This is part of why SOME crimes in the OT were punished by death, but not all.

[donnay]

Matthew 5:44 - But I say unto you, Love your enemies, bless them that curse you, do good to them that hate you, and pray for them which despitefully use you, and persecute you;

Leviticus 19:18 - Thou shalt not avenge, nor bear any grudge against the children of thy people, but thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself: I [am] the LORD.

Romans 12:20 - Therefore if thine enemy hunger, feed him; if he thirst, give him drink: for in so doing thou shalt heap coals of fire on his head.

Luke 6:27 - But I say unto you which hear, Love your enemies, do good to them which hate you,

Luke 6:37 - Judge not, and ye shall not be judged: condemn not, and ye shall not be condemned: forgive, and ye shall be forgiven:

Matthew 5:9 - Blessed [are] the peacemakers: for they shall be called the children of God.