Shocking mistake in the Darren Wilson grand jury

[phill4paul]

We are probably a lot closer on this than it looks like but passing like ships in the night because of approaching from different paradigms.

I am approaching it from a 'pro constitutional Sheriff' paradigm and envisioning the 'utopia' having basically eliminated all of 'law enforcement' in America except for elected County Sheriffs and the Secret Service. You are probably closer to the "community posse" model, while I am putting the elected Sheriff (not that they are currently) as the organized embodiment of a community posse model.

An "elected" individual will probably feel the need for recompense. After all, a full time position would not allow one the time to tend to his own affairs of providing a living for his family.
And that right there is the "gotcha" of every interaction between humans and government. The newly elected sheriff says: "How much can I make? What can I do to make a better living out of what it is I do ( in this case "law" enforcement). What do I need to do to retain my position?"
No one is ever happy enough with what they are making. "I deserve more." Well if your job depends on collecting fines, imprisoning others, confiscation of personal property then where are we left?

[DevilsAdvocate]

Michael Brown WASN'T RUNNING AWAY!!! There is no evidence at all he was running away, in fact all the evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.

[GunnyFreedom]

An "elected" individual will probably feel the need for recompense. After all, a full time position would not allow one the time to tend to his own affairs of providing a living for his family.
And that right there is the "gotcha" of every interaction between humans and government. The newly elected sheriff says: "How much can I make? What can I do to make a better living out of what it is I do ( in this case "law" enforcement). What do I need to do to retain my position?"
No one is ever happy enough with what they are making. "I deserve more." Well if your job depends on collecting fines, imprisoning others, confiscation of personal property then where are we left?

We do differ there, maybe. I certainly do see a time in the future when "the human condition" will have advanced enough to abolish all forms of police as we understand them today, but I do not see the people in general being ready for such a thing any time soon. Indeed, I see one of the big points of the creation is to restore anarchy (ie 'the time of the judges") and I expect we will finally achieve 'true anarchy' among men around 700 years into the Millennium.

So I guess while I ultimately I agree with the ancaps, I'm just saying "that part's like 1000 years away" and "this here is as far as we are likely to to get in my lifetime."

[phill4paul]

Michael Brown WASN'T RUNNING AWAY!!! There is no evidence at all he was running away, in fact all the evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.

Rep Burn for inciting.

[phill4paul]

We do differ there, maybe. I certainly do see a time in the future when "the human condition" will have advanced enough to abolish all forms of police as we understand them today, but I do not see the people in general being ready for such a thing any time soon. Indeed, I see one of the big points of the creation is to restore anarchy (ie 'the time of the judges") and I expect we will finally achieve 'true anarchy' among men around 700 years into the Millennium.

So I guess while I ultimately I agree with the ancaps, I'm just saying "that part's like 1000 years away" and "this here is as far as we are likely to to get in my lifetime."

I don't see that time. That time would require sovereign individuals to shun petty tyrants to the extant that individuals would make an, albeit socially driven, choice not to be petty tyrants. There's more of them than there are of us. One thousand years? Perhaps. If there is an global human near-extinction event.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Rep Burn for inciting.

Because I am acting as a Devils Advocate, and confronting you with evidence you disagree with? If you want to take me to task, do it over facts.

[phill4paul]

Because I am acting as a Devils Advocate, and confronting you with evidence you disagree with? If you want to take me to task, do it over facts.

You're the least of the "Devil's Advocates" that have come before. You're late to the party. Sorry you jumped in so late for the gala. I think it is pretty much consensus here that there was enough evidence to go to trial. Feel free to read any of the numerous threads regarding this.
I dunno. Why don't you start a poll regarding that issue. That's what a "Devils Advocate" might do.

[DevilsAdvocate]

You're the least of the "Devil's Advocates" that have come before. You're late to the party. Sorry you jumped in so late for the gala. I think it is pretty much consensus here that there was enough evidence to go to trial. Feel free to read any of the numerous threads regarding this.
I dunno. Why don't you start a poll regarding that issue. That's what a "Devils Advocate" might do.

I'm also the first one I have seen that has posted Peter Schiff's take on the Ferguson riots. And as you might know, he is a very highly respected member of the liberty community. He is hyper-logical, and known for bluntly speaking his mind no matter what anyone else thinks. After seeing this video today and then seeing this thread, I thought it a good opportunity to inject it into the conversation.

Rather than trying to shut me up, you should stick to debating the facts. Instead of dodging and weaving around, looking for lines of attack where you can actually win because the facts aren't on your side.

[phill4paul]

I'm also the first one I have seen that has posted Peter Schiff's take on the Ferguson riots. And as you might know, he is a very highly respected member of the liberty community. He is hyper-logical, and known for bluntly speaking his mind no matter what anyone else thinks. After seeing this video today and then seeing this thread, I thought it a good opportunity to inject it into the conversation.

Rather than trying to shut me up, you should stick to debating the facts. Instead of dodging and weaving around, looking for lines of attack where you can actually win because the facts aren't on your side.

Or you could post the video without an inciting title or commentary in it's own thread.

I got through 3 mins and decided it wasn't worth a waste of time. It's pointed out time and again how the prostitution had no will to convince the jury for indictment. Shiff is wrong. Imagine that. I've never been a fanboy of his anyway,

[acptulsa]

Michael Brown WASN'T RUNNING AWAY!!! There is no evidence at all he was running away, in fact all the evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.

Michael Brown hits the cop upside the head and attempts to appropriate his pistol, then he advances toward the cop, then he falls down some four dozen or more feet away from the cop.

Well, of course he did! How could it be any other way?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

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[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

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[Henry Rogue]

We are probably a lot closer on this than it looks like but passing like ships in the night because of approaching from different paradigms.

I am approaching it from a 'pro constitutional Sheriff' paradigm and envisioning the 'utopia' having basically eliminated all of 'law enforcement' in America except for elected County Sheriffs and the Secret Service. You are probably closer to the "community posse" model, while I am putting the elected Sheriff (not that they are currently) as the organized embodiment of a community posse model.

Who does one defend the Bill of Rights against, but the oath takers. Those entrusted with the Constitution are the only ones that can possibly abuse it.

Will oath keepers ever be anything but a small percentage of oath takers? How does one enforce an oath? One could spend so much of himself defending the Constitution he leaves little to defend himself.

[DevilsAdvocate]

Michael Brown hits the cop upside the head and attempts to appropriate his pistol, then he advances toward the cop, then he falls down some four dozen or more feet away from the cop.

Well, of course he did! How could it be any other way?

He ran away, until the officer pulled out his gun and ordered him to stop. After which point Michael Brown charged the officer. The blood spatter evidence decisively proves that Michael Brown was moving towards the officer at the moment the bullets impacted him. All of the bullets hit him from the front, and the injuries indicate that his hands were not up at the time. 3 witnesses alleged his hands were up and that he was shot in the back, at least 7 indicated otherwise. After forensic evidence came out proving he wasn't shot in the back, the 3 witnesses changed their story. (It should be noted that one of these 3 witnesses was an accomplice to the convenience store robbery)

Rarely has there been a case where the evidence so overwhelmingly and decisively proves the innocence of the defense, let alone the lack of guilt.

Watch the videos I posted and expose yourself to a different point of view. Who knows, you might just change your mind.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

He ran away, until the officer pulled out his gun and ordered him to stop. After which point Michael Brown charged the officer. The blood spatter evidence decisively proves that Michael Brown was moving towards the officer at the moment the bullets impacted him. All of the bullets hit him from the front, and the injuries indicate that his hands were not up at the time. 3 witnesses alleged his hands were up and that he was shot in the back, at least 7 indicated otherwise. After forensic evidence came out proving he wasn't shot in the back, the 3 witnesses changed their story. (It should be noted that one of these 3 witnesses was an accomplice to the convenience store robbery)

Rarely has there been a case where the evidence so overwhelmingly and decisively proves the innocence of the defense, let alone the lack of guilt.

Watch the videos I posted and expose yourself to a different point of view. Who knows, you might just change your mind.

Your videos are from a talk radio show. They are not evidence.

The autopsy states that the upper ventral right arm sustained a bullet entrance wound. This is consistent with arms raised. It would be much more improbable to hit this spot with arms in a charging position.

The autopsy also reported a gunshot entrance wound of the dorsal right forearm. The pairs with the exit wound of the medial ventral right forearm. The bullet path is slightly upward, which would be consistent with Brown examining his thumb wound, with arm turned inward, while the arm is raised. This is consistent with some grand jury testimony. It is still however, difficult to determine the position of this arm when hit.

Blood splatter indicates Brown's path, not the direction he is facing when the blood drops. Each drop does not indicate whether Brown is coming or going when each drop hits the pavement.

Wilson's account is actually underwhelming. His claim that he recognized cigars contradicts Chief Jackson's statement that Wilson did not know about the robbery when encountering Brown. The squealing tires and Wilson practically running over Brown and Johnson is consistent with the evidence.

Wilson's unequivocal claim that Brown did not raise his hands in any form at all is improbable. It is inconsistent with a majority of grand jury witnesses who testified that Brown had his hands raised in some fashion.

Wilson has the dubious distinction of spinning his cowardice into an unequivocal textbook and training scenario.

[GunnyFreedom]

Who does one defend the Bill of Rights against, but the oath takers. Those entrusted with the Constitution are the only ones that can possibly abuse it.

Will oath keepers ever be anything but a small percentage of oath takers? How does one enforce an oath? One could spend so much of himself defending the Constitution he leaves little to defend himself.

I actually drew out a whole system in my own version of the "Sheriff's First Act" where every single act of law enforcement engagement with a targeted person within the County must be recorded in a log, with the Constitutional justification for that act written out, and the log signed by the elected Sheriff. These logs must be published (redacting suspect identities) annually, and/or within 4 months prior to any election in which the office of Sheriff is in contest, and made easily and digitally available for constituent review prior to the election.

Not everyone would read the logs looking for the Sheriff lapsing his duty, but some would, enough to make a buzz. And the Sheriff will also be doubly on guard because he can't hide from the record.

It also makes the elected Sheriff directly responsible for everything the city cop, State Trooper, SBI, FBI or DHS does within the county. Which at least gives that Sheriff some kind of legal incentive to break out the shotguns and stop a bunch of FBI agents from defecating on the Constitution; or at least an official public log "this was done against my will and without my consent" which will shine a spotlight on the cockroach feds trying to blackbag folks all quiet-like.

[acptulsa]

Michael Brown WASN'T RUNNING AWAY!!! There is no evidence at all he was running away, in fact all the evidence seems to point in the opposite direction.

He ran away...

Well, now, this whole thing just gets more and more clear...

[Gaddafi Duck]

So, I'm curious...where's the "evidence" all you have that Michael Brown was fleeing when he was shot?

[Gaddafi Duck]

Well, now, this whole thing just gets more and more clear...

Continue past the ellipses. You seem to like to quote less than half a sentence and sit smugly as if you "zinged" someone in a debate.

I love how people keep messaging me saying the Alpha Idiot was 150 feet away. What a great shot this cop is if he can hit a moving target 50 yards away multiple times in the field with a pistol after getting clocked in the face.

And then I also love how these pansies mock the legitimacy of getting punched by a 6'4" 292 lbs solidly built individual because bruises weren't blatantly dark enough the day of the assault. For starters, Darren Wilson was punched below the eyes on the cheek where far fewer capillaries exist--so it's not as if extensive bruising necessarily will take place. Plus, external bruising peaks days after an injury. And as I said, bruising itself means little in terms of an injury. I can bump my knee of a coffee table and have a bruise; I can tear my ACL and have no external signals of an injury. Likewise, getting punched in the cheek may or may not yield significant bruising; however, a concussion or getting knocked into a daze are both very serious, and far worse than getting a black eye.

As I said before, how light of a hit do YOU think Michael Brown landed on the officer??? I mean, at 292 lbs and already an aggressive individual on video, do you think he tapped his cheek? Was it a love tap?

How do you think it would have felt to get clocked by a 6'4" 292 lbs solidly built individual? How would you react if that person reached for your gun? How would YOU react if the person who just punched you and reached for your gun then turned and charged you after you yelled for him to stop?

[acptulsa]

Continue past the ellipses. You seem to like to quote less than half a sentence and sit smugly as if you "zinged" someone in a debate.

Beats sitting smugly thinking about what a great American you are for arguing that the Constitution doesn't count for $#@!.

How do you think it would have felt to get clocked by a 6'4" 292 lbs solidly built individual? How would you react if that person reached for your gun?

I wouldn't wait until he was a hundred fifty feet away and holding his hands in the air and then dump the rest of my clip into him like I was as inhuman as a dog on a chain.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...getting punched by a 6'4" 292 lbs solidly built individual...

6'4" 292 is not solid. It's fat. This makes it more improbable that Brown scuffled with Wilson, got shot, ran 60+ yards, lost both his shoes, and then miraculously turned out and mustered the wind to rush Wilson. Brown likely stops because he's about to keel over from being winded.

It's even more improbable to impossible for Wilson to hit Brown's upper ventral arm if he is reaching in his waistband or charging, as Wilson claimed. Not to mention that Brown would not even be reaching for anything in a waistband because nothing was in his waistband or anywhere else.

The more the evidence came out and the more Wilson lied--the more it showed that Wilson is an itchy trigger coward.

[Gaddafi Duck]

6'4" 292 is not solid. It's fat. This makes it more improbable that Brown scuffled with Wilson, got shot, ran 60+ yards, lost both his shoes, and then miraculously turned out and mustered the wind to rush Wilson.

It's even more improbable to impossible for Wilson to hit Brown's upper ventral arm if he is reaching in his waistband or charging, as Wilson claimed. Not to mention that Brown would not even be reaching for anything in a waistband because nothing was in his waistband or anywhere else.

The more the evidence came out and the more Wilson lied--the more it showed that Wilson is an itchy trigger coward.

Uhm...have you seen photos of Michael Brown as in his full body? He's a large individual. Quit trying to paint it as a 300 lbs morbidly obese 5'5" dude who couldn't lift a Twinkie.

Go ahead and arm wrestle a clone of Michael Brown. Tell me how you do, and then tell me it wouldn't hurt to get clocked by him.

Oh, and does it really take an "in shape" person for a punch to hurt? I mean, getting punched in the head is getting punched in the head. Your knowledge of fighting demonstrates you know very little of it. There aren't facial muscles you can exercise to endure a punch. Meaning...if you're a full blown body builder, you're no more capable of withstanding a hay-maker than someone weighing 150 lbs who can't lift a 45 lbs bar. Your head is your head...you can't make it less prone to the effects of a punch like you could tighten your stomach like Houdini.

Go ahead and get clocked by a 6'4" 290 lbs individual. Tell me how you feel afterwards.

[Gaddafi Duck]

Beats sitting smugly thinking about what a great American you are for arguing that the Constitution doesn't count for $#@!.



I wouldn't wait until he was a hundred fifty feet away and holding his hands in the air and then dump the rest of my clip into him like I was as inhuman as a dog on a chain.

So wait, Michael Brown was 50 yards away and the majority of the bullets hit him in his center with one kill shot that happened to hit his forehead that two independent forensic coroners concluded had to come from someone LUNGING forward in a tackling manner?

Curious, have you shot a pistol before? How accurate are you at 50 yards away hitting a moving target to where not only do you land the majority of your shots, but you happen to finish it off with a headshot after getting clocked in the head by a 6'4" 292 lbs individual?

The more you talk and the more you fabricate the actual events, the more obvious it is you have no evidence nor a reasonable story. Also, if you've ran 50 yards away, what would make you stop and put your hands up? Are you even aware of how far 50 yards is?

Oh, that's right, Michael Brown wasn't 50 yards away. He was 10 yards away. And he had his thumb blown off for reaching for the cop's gun. His blood was in the cop car. The cop was assaulted while sitting in his car. You excuse not only the assault on the officer who was sitting in his car, but you excuse the fact that Michael Brown tried to seize a firearm from another individual, and somehow the individual who shoots Michael Brown is at fault?

SO, if that's the case, you've lost any credibility in debating the necessity of the 2nd amendment. Because you've basically neutered any credibility you had in saying someone has the right to defend themselves.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Uhm...have you seen photos of Michael Brown as in his full body?

Yeah, he's fat.

He's a large individual

.

Saying someone is 6"4" 292 is not the same thing as saying someone is 6'4" 292 AND solidly built.

Quit trying to paint it...

Quit trying to paint Wilson as he painted himself in his revisionist account. Wilson painted himself as someone who 100% followed textbook training and procedure. The event was much more mixed.

Wilson is a proven liar and a coward.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

...two independent forensic coroners concluded had to come from someone LUNGING forward in a tackling manner?

It's beyond the scope of the autopsy to determine anything like "lunging" or a "tackling manner."

...getting clocked in the head by a 6'4" 292 lbs individual?

The evidence indicates that Wilson did not get "clocked." More like deflected punches, if anything.

The more you talk and the more you fabricate the actual events

,

Just like Wilson's fabrications.

Also, if you've ran 50 yards away, what would make you stop and put your hands up?

Because Wilson is leaner and faster than Brown. Wilson runs after Brown. He gains on Brown, gets close, and can run him down because Brown is likely more spent from being overweight. Because Brown lost both shoes. Because Brown is fat and just had a scuffle, got shot, ran full out 60+ yards, and now is at the point of exhaustion.

[acptulsa]

So wait, Michael Brown was 50 yards away and the majority of the bullets hit him in his center with one kill shot that happened to hit his forehead that two independent forensic coroners concluded had to come from someone LUNGING forward in a tackling manner?

It takes a considerable amount of ignorance or a propensity for outright lying--one or the other, there's no third way--to avow that a coroner can tell if a shot entered someone's scalp because they were lunging blindly with their head down or because they were kneeling and their killer was standing over them.

Curious, have you shot a pistol before? How accurate are you at 50 yards away hitting a moving target to where not only do you land the majority of your shots, but you happen to finish it off with a headshot after getting clocked in the head by a 6'4" 292 lbs individual?

I always 'land' my shots at fifty yards, provided I'm shooting the Ruger and not someone's POS, whether the target is moving or not. Can't say I've ever tried it after getting clocked in the head by someone of that exact weight and height. But if I'm conscious and not seeing double, I don't know why that would affect it. And Wilson was presumably trained and in practice.

The more you talk and the more you fabricate the actual events, the more obvious it is you have no evidence nor a reasonable story. Also, if you've ran 50 yards away, what would make you stop and put your hands up? Are you even aware of how far 50 yards is?

I am repeating things. I haven't made any of it up. And you know it. You've heard it all before I said it. I would stop and put my hands up if I looked enough like swiss cheese that I thought I couldn't get away, and I presumed that my assailant wasn't a $#@!ing psychopath more interested in ventilating me than apprehending me.

Oh, that's right, Michael Brown wasn't 50 yards away. He was 10 yards away. And he had his thumb blown off for reaching for the cop's gun. His blood was in the cop car. The cop was assaulted while sitting in his car. You excuse not only the assault on the officer who was sitting in his car, but you excuse the fact that Michael Brown tried to seize a firearm from another individual, and somehow the individual who shoots Michael Brown is at fault?

Link or you're lying yet again. Which you are.

SO, if that's the case, you've lost any credibility in debating the necessity of the 2nd amendment. Because you've basically neutered any credibility you had in saying someone has the right to defend themselves.

Wilson failed to defend himself, and is damned lucky that Brown broke off the attack before finishing him off. Too bad he decided not to be equally chicken$#@! or human, depending on whether we're talking about your point of view or a human point of view.

Yes, the facts are clear. And no, they obviously cut no ice with you.

Now that I've answered your slew of baseless charges, I don't suppose you'd be kind enough to answer one little, simple question: How did Miriam Carey scare the living hell out of a dozen secret service agents to the point where they had to ventilate her?

[Anti Federalist]

Now that I've answered your slew of baseless charges, I don't suppose you'd be kind enough to answer one little, simple question: How did Miriam Carey scare the living hell out of a dozen secret service agents to the point where they had to ventilate her?

I'm always told that this "is not the hill to die on", that Brown cuts an unappatizing figure and makes a poor poster child for the "cops are out of control" argument.

But it's just a bunch of excuses, there will always be something that leads so folks to say: "they did this to themselves."

Carey's executioners got a Congressional standing ovation...how can you argue with that?

*sigh*

We're well and truly $#@!ed, I'm afraid...

[Anti Federalist]

Now that I've answered your slew of baseless charges, I don't suppose you'd be kind enough to answer one little, simple question: How did Miriam Carey scare the living hell out of a dozen secret service agents to the point where they had to ventilate her?

I'm always told that this "is not the hill to die on", that Brown cuts an unappatizing figure and makes a poor poster child for the "cops are out of control" argument.

But it's just a bunch of excuses, there will always be something that leads so folks to say: "they did this to themselves."

Carey's executioners got a Congressional standing ovation...how can you argue with that?

*sigh*

We're well and truly $#@!ed, I'm afraid...

[AuH20]

I'm always told that this "is not the hill to die on", that Brown cuts an unappatizing figure and makes a poor poster child for the "cops are out of control" argument.

But it's just a bunch of excuses, there will always be something that leads so folks to say: "they did this to themselves."

Carey's executioners got a Congressional standing ovation...how can you argue with that?

*sigh*

We're well and truly $#@!ed, I'm afraid...

Especially when the Brown incident is being exclusively used as a racial weapon. I've already provided the study that shows that police officers are less likely to shoot persons of color as opposed to a Caucasian, due to the inherent fear of being labeled a racist. The Wilson incident had very little to do with race.

[Anti Federalist]

Now that I've answered your slew of baseless charges, I don't suppose you'd be kind enough to answer one little, simple question: How did Miriam Carey scare the living hell out of a dozen secret service agents to the point where they had to ventilate her?

I'm always told that this "is not the hill to die on", that Brown cuts an unappatizing figure and makes a poor poster child for the "cops are out of control" argument.

But it's just a bunch of excuses, there will always be something that leads so folks to say: "they did this to themselves."

Carey's executioners got a Congressional standing ovation...how can you argue with that?

*sigh*

We're well and truly $#@!ed, I'm afraid...