Results 1 to 22 of 22

Thread: Arguments that I don't get

  1. #1

    Arguments that I don't get

    "If you stay in a country you automatically consent to comply with its laws and taxes. Love it or leave it."

    "Enforcing of laws isn't actually violent unless you resist."

    I've seen so many otherwise intelligent people argue things like this with a straight face and expect me to take them seriously. I don't get it and I'm frankly getting tired of it. Arguing against these is like arguing against 2 + 2 = 5. It just isn't true.

    Maybe this belongs in the vent since it sort of is a rant but its sort of a legitimate discussion to. What to do when you get frustrated by the combination of stupidity and arrogance of statists...
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



  2. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  3. #2
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post

    What to do when you get frustrated by the combination of stupidity and arrogance of statists...
    Join a PAC. If you can't beat 'em, 'join em, I always say.

  4. #3
    It depends on how much you have invested in the relationship with the person. If it is someone you care about and intend to convert, you have to understand that it's a process that can take years in some cases, because they will necessarily go through cognitive dissonance. I once did a paper on Festinger in college, and I cannot emphasize enough the importance of allowing a person the opportunity to go through that phase without giving up on them.

    In the meantime, focus on things you know you have in common with them, and then sprinkle your conversations with historical fact. You have to have their trust and respect before they're going to accept your political philosophy. You will lose it immediately if you are in any way condescending.

    Again, it all depends on how invested you are in the conversion of the person. If it's someone you don't really care about, don't even bother getting your knickers in a twist over it.

    Just my .02
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    It depends on how much you have invested in the relationship with the person. If it is someone you care about and intend to convert, you have to understand that it's a process that can take years in some cases, because they will necessarily go through cognitive dissonance. I once did a paper on Festinger in college, and I cannot emphasize enough the importance of allowing a person the opportunity to go through that phase without giving up on them.

    In the meantime, focus on things you know you have in common with them, and then sprinkle your conversations with historical fact. You have to have their trust and respect before they're going to accept your political philosophy. You will lose it immediately if you are in any way condescending.

    Again, it all depends on how invested you are in the conversion of the person. If it's someone you don't really care about, don't even bother getting your knickers in a twist over it.

    Just my .02
    Thanks

    This thread isn't about any particular person, nor is it really about how much I care about them. In the immediate context this is about informal debates on college campus, but really, we've all heard these kinds of arguments all the time, so it doesn't really matter what particular conversation we are talking about. It it worth noting that, rare though it is, there are statists who do NOT use arguments like these, and I know a few.

    I get that people are going to go through cognitive dissonance. The smarter the person is, the more annoying it is...
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    "Enforcing of laws isn't actually violent unless you resist."

    What to do when you get frustrated by the combination of stupidity and arrogance of statists...
    Call CPS.

    *evil grin*
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by mosquitobite View Post
    Call CPS.

    *evil grin*
    lol!
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  8. #7
    Government works very hard on instilling the brainwashed propaganda automatic sound bite responses into the flock. It's much easier than actually making the effort and taking the time to think things through.

    My favorite one is, "If you don't vote, you can't complain."

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Government works very hard on instilling the brainwashed propaganda automatic sound bite responses into the flock. It's much easier than actually making the effort and taking the time to think things through.

    My favorite one is, "If you don't vote, you can't complain."
    If you don't vote, you can't complain when they impose their will on you because you didn't do anything about it, and if you do vote, you consent to the results and thus can't complain when they impose their will on you. Its a no-win, and its silly...

    Those arrogant people who think they know what they are talking about are frustrating to those of us who actually do...
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading



  10. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Government works very hard on instilling the brainwashed propaganda automatic sound bite responses into the flock. It's much easier than actually making the effort and taking the time to think things through.

    My favorite one is, "If you don't vote, you can't complain."
    I used to believe that one. Actually, before Dr. Paul, I believed a lot of what the average media-informed dope believes. That's why I try to be patient with people. It took me years to convert certain members of my family, but almost everyone, including the extended family "gets it" now. Mark has been very successful converting people at work, and I've had a little bit of success with old friends. We have two friends right now who we've started 'working' on. You just have to be careful so you don't come off like a loon. What we at this forum believe is NOT the norm, by any stretch, though we're making headway. But, as the Good Doctor has said: "Truth is treason in the empire of lies". So, in our quest to enlighten people, we must tread lightly.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I used to believe that one. Actually, before Dr. Paul, I believed a lot of what the average media-informed dope believes. That's why I try to be patient with people. It took me years to convert certain members of my family, but almost everyone, including the extended family "gets it" now. Mark has been very successful converting people at work, and I've had a little bit of success with old friends. We have two friends right now who we've started 'working' on. You just have to be careful so you don't come off like a loon. What we at this forum believe is NOT the norm, by any stretch, though we're making headway. But, as the Good Doctor has said: "Truth is treason in the empire of lies". So, in our quest to enlighten people, we must tread lightly.
    I was a statist before Ron Paul to. I am still trying to figure out how not to seem like a "loon." I don't believe in the State for crying out loud

    That said, when I was a statist I hadn't really thought through my political philosophy much, and I already had some libertarian viewpoints. I had always acknowledged that taxes were theft even though I also believed (until 2013) that they were a necessary theft, and that there was a moral obligation to pay them anyway. I guess the difference between me and some others is that while I would not have agreed with libertarian conclusions initially, I didn't deny FACTS when they were presented to me either.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    I used to believe that one. Actually, before Dr. Paul, I believed a lot of what the average media-informed dope believes. That's why I try to be patient with people. It took me years to convert certain members of my family, but almost everyone, including the extended family "gets it" now. Mark has been very successful converting people at work, and I've had a little bit of success with old friends. We have two friends right now who we've started 'working' on. You just have to be careful so you don't come off like a loon. What we at this forum believe is NOT the norm, by any stretch, though we're making headway. But, as the Good Doctor has said: "Truth is treason in the empire of lies". So, in our quest to enlighten people, we must tread lightly.
    Congrats on your escape from the flock.

  14. #12
    The best way I have converted my fellow Christians is to equate their love of the state with idolatry. Not in a confrontational form, but in an educational one.

    When someone leaves the welfare office do they get on their knees and thank God for that help? Only if they were already saved - that government office doesn't bring people to Christ.

    When we allow the government to be in charge of "giving permission" on marriage we are where we are today - asking government, not God for approval.

    etc...
    Few men have virtue enough to withstand the highest bidder. ~GEORGE WASHINGTON, letter, Aug. 17, 1779

    Quit yer b*tching and whining and GET INVOLVED!!

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    If you don't vote, you can't complain when they impose their will on you because you didn't do anything about it, and if you do vote, you consent to the results and thus can't complain when they impose their will on you. Its a no-win, and its silly...

    Those arrogant people who think they know what they are talking about are frustrating to those of us who actually do...
    It's hard not to let it frustrate you. But try not to. Convert/influence when you see an opportunity to do so, and let the rest go. And pray they see the light before it's too late for them.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I didn't deny FACTS when they were presented to me either.
    The definition of cognitive dissonance is when facts conflict with our beliefs, and force us to re-think our positions. People who don't want to accept that, go through cognitive dissonance. Sometimes, they remain there forever. Even after I discovered Dr. Paul, I still went through a few years of cognitive dissonance.
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    "If you stay in a country you automatically consent to comply with its laws and taxes. Love it or leave it."
    This is a republic. It's a representative democracy. When I question the laws and the lawmakers, it's called being vigilant. When I discuss whether the lawmakers are actually representing you and me, I'm doing my job. I'm stepping up to my responsibility. Are you?

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    "Enforcing of laws isn't actually violent unless you resist."
    Go to Georgia and tell it to Baby Bou Bou.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    Those arrogant people who think they know what they are talking about are frustrating to those of us who actually do...
    Personally I have tended to realize how little I actually do know as I've aged...

    That said I've got to admit I did consider myself to be of above average intelligence when I was in my teens and throughout my 20's.....

    The regression I've suffered over the last few decades seems to have left me blathering in the corner...



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    The definition of cognitive dissonance is when facts conflict with our beliefs, and force us to re-think our positions. People who don't want to accept that, go through cognitive dissonance. Sometimes, they remain there forever. Even after I discovered Dr. Paul, I still went through a few years of cognitive dissonance.
    I, as I would say everybody does, always want to be right.

    So when it comes to debates I always keep an open mind (freely admitting I am wrong,) so that I can come away with a more educated, and correct view at the end.

    That is the definition of being 'right.' Conforming your views to the truth, not arguing in favor of your views, and painting them as the truth.

    I am just as arrogant and bullheaded as the next person, but I have identified the secret to always being right. Sadly some people would rather argue that they are right, instead of truly being so. I have always found that stance rather unintelligent.

  21. #18

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    From that site:

    British Dictionary definitions for cognitive dissonance

    cognitive dissonance
    noun


    1. (psychol) an uncomfortable mental state resulting from conflicting cognitions;
    usually resolved by changing some of the cognitions
    Diversity finds unity in the message of freedom.

    Dilige et quod vis fac. ~ Saint Augustine

    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    Above all I think everyone needs to understand that neither the Bundys nor Finicum were militia or had prior military training. They were, first and foremost, Ranchers who had about all the shit they could take.
    Quote Originally Posted by HOLLYWOOD View Post
    If anything, this situation has proved the government is nothing but a dictatorship backed by deadly force... no different than the dictatorships in the banana republics, just more polished and cleverly propagandized.
    "I'll believe in good cops when they start turning bad cops in."

    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    In a free society there will be bigotry, and racism, and sexism and religious disputes and, and, and.......
    I don't want to live in a cookie cutter, federally mandated society.
    Give me messy freedom every time!

  23. #20
    Maybe this will help:

    Try to come up with a way that they could be right! Observe:

    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    "If you stay in a country you automatically consent to comply with its laws and taxes. Love it or leave it."
    Well, there's something to that. Just as if I want to stay in your house, I am agreeing to follow your rules. You don't need to have signed a formal agreement for this to be true. It's implicit. So I can agree that your idea is based on a true principle.

    So here's the additional truth I want to add for your consideration: the politicians in Washington D.C. do not actually own the entire country. They did not purchase it. They did nothing to justly acquire it. They are just people, living in a swamp in Maryland. They are not the owners of this whole huge part of North America we call the United States. If they were, then I think that your point would be true. But I do not think that they are. Do you?

    You have the right to make the rules for your house because you own it. I deeply respect your right to do that. I do not have the right to make rules for your house, because I do not own it. For the same exact reason, because the politicians do not own the country, they do not have the right to make whatever rules they wish for the country. They don't have that right. They're not the owners. That's how I see it. Does that make sense?

    "Enforcing of laws isn't actually violent unless you resist."
    Well, that's true. It would only be violent if you resisted. However, violence isn't the only bad thing in the world. The threat of violence, for instance, can be almost as bad, wouldn't you agree?

    For instance, a bully shaking down a scrawny kid for his lunch money every day will not be violent at all as long as the scrawny kid does not resist. But the threat of violence is there, and that's what makes his actions wrong. His actions are wrong, aren't they?


    Just a thought, FF. Not saying you need to, or should, do this every time. But it's an additional communication strategy you might find fun and fruitful. Sometimes you will really have to get convoluted to come up with a way they could be right -- think of it as a challenge!

    Asking lots of questions -- not trap questions, real questions -- is good, too.

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by Deborah K View Post
    It's hard not to let it frustrate you. But try not to. Convert/influence when you see an opportunity to do so, and let the rest go. And pray they see the light before it's too late for them.
    Thanks. I do try not to. Sometimes I fail.

    Quote Originally Posted by acptulsa View Post

    Go to Georgia and tell it to Baby Bou Bou.
    Indeed...
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Personally I have tended to realize how little I actually do know as I've aged...

    That said I've got to admit I did consider myself to be of above average intelligence when I was in my teens and throughout my 20's.....

    The regression I've suffered over the last few decades seems to have left me blathering in the corner...
    I think you're above average intelligence to. I doubt you'd deny these types of facts, you wouldn't be on RPF otherwise.
    Quote Originally Posted by helmuth_hubener View Post
    Maybe this will help:

    Try to come up with a way that they could be right! Observe:

    Well, there's something to that. Just as if I want to stay in your house, I am agreeing to follow your rules. You don't need to have signed a formal agreement for this to be true. It's implicit. So I can agree that your idea is based on a true principle.

    So here's the additional truth I want to add for your consideration: the politicians in Washington D.C. do not actually own the entire country. They did not purchase it. They did nothing to justly acquire it. They are just people, living in a swamp in Maryland. They are not the owners of this whole huge part of North America we call the United States. If they were, then I think that your point would be true. But I do not think that they are. Do you?

    You have the right to make the rules for your house because you own it. I deeply respect your right to do that. I do not have the right to make rules for your house, because I do not own it. For the same exact reason, because the politicians do not own the country, they do not have the right to make whatever rules they wish for the country. They don't have that right. They're not the owners. That's how I see it. Does that make sense?

    Well, that's true. It would only be violent if you resisted. However, violence isn't the only bad thing in the world. The threat of violence, for instance, can be almost as bad, wouldn't you agree?

    For instance, a bully shaking down a scrawny kid for his lunch money every day will not be violent at all as long as the scrawny kid does not resist. But the threat of violence is there, and that's what makes his actions wrong. His actions are wrong, aren't they?


    Just a thought, FF. Not saying you need to, or should, do this every time. But it's an additional communication strategy you might find fun and fruitful. Sometimes you will really have to get convoluted to come up with a way they could be right -- think of it as a challenge!

    Asking lots of questions -- not trap questions, real questions -- is good, too.
    Good points, but that's not really admitting that the statist absurdities are correct, and rightfully not...
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Personally I have tended to realize how little I actually do know as I've aged...

    That said I've got to admit I did consider myself to be of above average intelligence when I was in my teens and throughout my 20's.....

    The regression I've suffered over the last few decades seems to have left me blathering in the corner...
    Indeed. The progression of life. My folks are in their mid-80's now and not a $#@! is given politically. To quote my dad " That's up to you guys." Him and mom voted for Ron. I made my case. For the most part they are honey badgers.
    I like to consider myself "above" the average. I'm getting to the point that I am tired of blathering.
    I'm just going to live or die. Based on my personal convictions.



Similar Threads

  1. Winning Arguments
    By Anti Federalist in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 4
    Last Post: 08-18-2012, 09:22 PM
  2. Replies: 1
    Last Post: 05-04-2012, 05:59 AM
  3. Curious about these arguments
    By bronc_fan23 in forum Economy & Markets
    Replies: 0
    Last Post: 09-21-2011, 03:59 PM
  4. Arguments for the Fed
    By Freedom 4 all in forum U.S. Political News
    Replies: 23
    Last Post: 07-09-2011, 04:58 PM
  5. Three Arguments…
    By Erazmus in forum Grassroots Central
    Replies: 10
    Last Post: 06-11-2007, 06:15 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •