Not at all! What I'm saying is, if there is nothing that anyone can do about it, then what possible difference could any of what you say make?Originally Posted by Sola_Fide
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
It's interesting how you responded to my comment that there are only two motivations, desire and fear. You claimed "love" was a third motivation.
It would be easy to argue that one would "desire" to be closer to God, or "fear" damnation, but let's go with love.
IMO, love is it's own reward. Anyone with children knows this. One loves because one can not do otherwise. Are we ever "perfect" in our love for our children? Are we "perfect" in how we behave towards our children? Of course not. Do we expect a reward for our love for our children? Of course not.
You believe the "purpose" for loving God is an expectation of a reward. That is not love. That is a bargain. If God damns us forever, is that any reason to love him less? If a child tells us to go $#@! ourselves, do we love them less?
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
No I don't. I said in that thread that the Christian man already has his reward. The love he has is simply gratitude for the previously shown unmerited grace.
You are describing salvation as an exchange where man gives something and then God responds. But salvation described in the Bible is an exchange between the persons of the Trinity. God accepts the perfect law keeping of Christ as the payment for the sins of the elect. Man's desire, effort, works is not part of that exchange.
Where have I even implied that?
What I am saying is that God commands and Man responds. Salvation is your hangup, not mine. It's pointless to be so focused on something beyond my control.
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
No. God commands and man doesn't respond.
Ok. God commands, man DOESN'T respond, some are damned, some are saved. And somehow, we're supposed to be concerned about something we're not involved in, and have no influence upon. I like your theology...it requires nothing.
All modern revolutions have ended in a reinforcement of the power of the State.
-Albert Camus
Yes. Salvation requires nothing from man. It is 100% free.
Have you ever lifted weights? If you lifted weights did you ever max out? If you lifted weights and you maxed out, did you ever find out later that you could lift more weight?
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Jesus Christ.
And he stands as advocate for any that call on him,, against the accuser of man.
And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Agree. So it's Him alone that saves me, not anything in me. Not my efforts, not my will, not my choice, not my good deeds.
Yes! Eternal Progression!
http://grooveshark.com/#!/s/One+Step...e/2CCuPx?src=5
We are co-eternal with God. We existed before we were born. We will always exist. We have always existed, though initially in a less-organized form than today.
This is one great key to understanding things such as "Why do bad things ever happen?", and "If God created everything, why did He create evil? Why did he create Satan?" The premises are off. God didn't create everything from nothing, and he most especially did not create any other personalities from nothing. I am Me, independent and eternal. And so are you, and so is Satan.
This is also the fundamental reason why we are free. If we are just creatures, somehow created from nothing (don't ask how!), and utterly dependent for existence on a capricious and illogical God, if everything about us and within us was poofed into being by God, then we have no freedom. We would just be puppets. Lego men.
As a side-note, life would have absolutely no meaning in such a Lego-men scenario. God zapped everything into being, from nothing, for reasons of His own, and He knows everything that will happen, and He chose to make everyone exactly how they are and to have them do exactly what they do and there is, needless to say, absolutely nothing any one of us can do about it.
That's not freedom. That's nothing. That's a void. An utter wasteland. If one person has all the power, then that same person also has all the responsibility.
Yeah, I know that is what Joseph Smith said, but this is contradictory to the Bible in so many places. This is one of the ways you can know he was a false prophet, he contradicted the revelation that came before him.
God ALONE is immortal:
1st Timothy 6:15-16
which God will bring about in his own time—God, the blessed and only Ruler, the King of kings and Lord of lords, who alone is immortal and who lives in unapproachable light, whom no one has seen or can see. To him be honor and might forever. Amen.
Last edited by Sola_Fide; 01-31-2015 at 03:11 PM.
...
John 8:51
"Truly, truly, I say to you, if anyone keeps My word he will never see death."
John 11:26
and everyone who lives and believes in Me will never die. Do you believe this?"
2 Corinthians 5:1-5
For we know that if the earthly tent which is our house is torn down, we have a building from God, a house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens. For indeed in this house we groan, longing to be clothed with our dwelling from heaven, inasmuch as we, having put it on, will not be found naked.
1 Corinthians 15:53-54
For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
1 Peter 1:23
for you have been born again not of seed which is perishable but imperishable, that is, through the living and enduring word of God.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
What do any of those verse have to do with what we are talking about?
What are you talking about? Guess you don't have ears?
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
The law requires a weight that no man could lift. Christ alone lifted the weight that God required and God accepted His sacrifice. That is why salvation is from God alone. This is one of the most important aspects of Christianity.
I was talking about the fact that the Bible teaches that God alone is immortal. Joseph Smith denied this. The verses you posted in response had nothing to do with the subject.
So you are saying the verses I posted had nothing to do with the subject of immortality? Are you sure?
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
No. They have to do with eternal life, not immortality. There is a difference. In the verse from 1st Timothy, it says that God ALONE posseses immortality (athanasian) as a unique character of his being. No other being, human or not, posses this.
Christians (and for that matter, unbelievers) have never-dying souls, but they don't possess athanasian as a unique character of their being.
Joseph Smith said that intelligences and matter always existed. In other words, humans existed in a pre-existent state. This is not Biblical. God alone posseses (unique to His being) immortality.
Last edited by Sola_Fide; 01-31-2015 at 06:38 PM.
Here you go taking one conversation and turning it into another then telling others what they can and cannot discuss. So when Bryan let you back on here again did he give you the keys to the place and tell you to keep idiots like me in their place or is this just your hubris speaking again?
And, for the record, I am not nearly as dim witted as you like to portray me, but immortality as a discussion was your choice of verbiage but as a concept these verse apply. I was just going with the discussion the OP put forth in the post you was splittin' hairs with him on. Ya know, the one where you started rambling about Joseph Smith and making a big hoopla about the word immortality.
Oh, and:
Even uses your term. Just sayin"...1 Corinthians 15:53-54
For this perishable must put on the imperishable, and this mortal must put on immortality. But when this perishable will have put on the imperishable, and this mortal will have put on immortality, then will come about the saying that is written, "DEATH IS SWALLOWED UP in victory.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
I don't think anyone is an idiot here. I really like the discussions we have here...and I like the discussions I have with you.
Right, it uses the term, but it is talking about eternal life there. Remember, I said there is a difference between eternal life and possessing immortality as a unique character of your being and alone being pre-existent (what God has).And, for the record, I am not nearly as dim witted as you like to portray me, but immortality as a discussion was your choice of verbiage but as a concept these verse apply. I was just going with the discussion the OP put forth in the post you was splittin' hairs with him on. Ya know, the one where you started rambling about Joseph Smith and making a big hoopla about the word immortality.
Oh, and:
Even uses your term. Just sayin"...
I am sure you do enjoy the conversations because how often do you get to publicly insult other folks like me and put them in their place for being unbiblical and clueless. (Your excessive use of "What do any of those verse have to do with what we are talking about?" is really rather trite)
Um, maybe you should back up and read what I wrote again? I was referring to the post you decided to go on a bender about and make some pet argument of yours while not even giving any credit to the person who was speaking to you about a concept which you are continuing to act like forum bully on. You are the one playing clipped form THEN you decided that you would insult my intelligence as though I don't know ANYTHING about, you know, ANYTHING.
If you reread what you said you will see all you gave HH was that God alone is immortal. That was it. Nothing else. Nope, not until after you tried to act like I was a child interrupting the adult's conversation. And now you are just rambling on. Don't let me interrupt you...Maybe you can throw unbiblical in there somewhere as a slur? Or bring up some historical character which you can castigate but no one else dare discuss the um, historical nature of your beliefs.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
Oh so you were agreeing with me? Great!
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
You must spread some Reputation around before giving it to moostraks again.
Did you read the verse? "Love the Lord your God with all your strength." It doesn't matter if the weight is too much for you to actually "lift."
Yes. Jesus lifted the weight. But He still wants us to love the Lord to the fullest extent that we can. Have you ever heard of isometric exercises? You can get stronger by attempting to lift a weight that you can't actually lift but only if you are putting everything you have into it. When doing isometric exercise you are expected to "fail" at moving the object you are pushing against. That doesn't mean don't push.Christ alone lifted the weight that God required and God accepted His sacrifice. That is why salvation is from God alone. This is one of the most important aspects of Christianity.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
John Calvin's commentary on loving the Lord God with all your heart, mind and strength.
What follows is an abridgment of the Law, [73] which is also found in the writings of Moses, (Deuteronomy 6:5.) For, though it is divided into two tables, the first of which relates to the worship of God, and the second to charity, Moses properly and wisely draws up this summary, [74] that the Jews may perceive what is the will of God in each of the commandments. And although we ought to love God far more than men, yet most properly does God, instead of worship or honor, require love from us, because in this way he declares that no other worship is pleasing to Him than what is voluntary; for no man will actually obey God but he who loves Him. But as the wicked and sinful inclinations of the flesh draw us aside from what is right, Moses shows that our life will not be regulated aright till the love of God fill all our senses. Let us therefore learn, that the commencement of godliness is the love of God, because God disdains the forced services of men, and chooses to be worshipped freely and willingly; and let us also learn, that under the love of God is included the reverence due to him.
Moses does not add the mind, but mentions only the heart, and the soul, and the strength; and though the present division into four clauses is more full, yet it does not alter the sense. For while Moses intends to teach generally that God ought to be perfectly loved, and that whatever powers belong to men ought to be devoted to this object, he reckoned it enough, after mentioning the soul and the heart, to add the strength, that he might not leave any part of us uninfluenced by the love of God; and we know also that under the word heart the Hebrews sometimes include the mind, [75] particularly when it is joined to the word soul What is the difference between the mind and the heart, both in this passage and in Matthew, I do not trouble myself to inquire, except that I consider the mind to denote the loftier abode of reason, from which all our thoughts and deliberations flow.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
The Holy Scriptures reveal to us that there were some who loved God and kept His Law in a fashion that pleased Him. For instance, we read in 1 Kings 11:38:
That's why King David could say things like:And it shall be, if thou wilt hearken unto all that I command thee and wilt walk in My ways and do that is right in My sight, to keep My statutes and My commandments, as David My servant did, that I will be with thee and build thee a sure house, as I built for David, and will give Israel unto thee. [Emphasis mine]
But having said all of that, I do agree that David's righteousness was not attained of his own weal, wit, or will; it was given to him by God the Father, through the working of the Holy Spirit, because of what Jesus Christ was going to do as the High Priest of a new covenant, in time to come.The LORD rewarded me according to my righteousness; according to the cleanness of my hands hath He recompensed me. For I have kept the ways of the LORD and have not wickedly departed from my God. For all His judgments were before me, and I did not put away His statutes from me. I was also upright before Him, and I kept myself from mine iniquity. Therefore hath the LORD recompensed me according to my righteousness, according to the cleanness of my hands in His eyesight. [Psalm 18:20-24]
"Then David said to the Philistine, 'You come to me with a sword, a spear, and a javelin, but I come to you in the name of Yahweh of hosts, the God of the battle lines of Israel, Whom you have reproached.'" - 1 Samuel 17:45
"May future generations look back on our work and say that these were men and women who, in moment of great crisis, stood up to their politicians, the opinion-makers, and the Establishment, and saved their country." - Dr. Ron Paul
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