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Thread: VICE: The One War Rand Paul Wants to Fight

  1. #1

    VICE: The One War Rand Paul Wants to Fight

    http://www.vice.com/read/the-one-war...wants-to-fight

    The One War Rand Paul Wants to Fight

    November 18, 2014
    By Grace Wyler




    ​Over the past 18 months, Kentucky Senator Rand Paul has made a habit of showing up places where he's not expected—at UC Be​rkeley and the National Urban League Confer​ence, co-sponsoring Kirsten G​illibrand's bill on sexual assault in the military, at Larry Ellison's house, in ​Ferguson. So I wasn't totally surprised to see him pop up on HBO this weekend, chatting it up with Bill Maher about climate change, the drug war, and the Islamic State.

    Wearing one of his mock turtlenecks, the Republican senator was friendly, even chummy, with his liberal host, dropping dad jokes about politicians and Maher's misspent youth. It was classic Paul: affable, earnest, occasionally tone-deaf—but nonetheless interesting, the word m​ost often used to describe Paul and his political ambitions. Even on climate change, an issue where he and Maher obviously disagree, the senator was conciliatory, looking for some environmental policy "middle ground" where Democrats and Republicans could agree. And as the interview wound down, and Maher's questions turned to the drug war and foreign policy, Paul won him over.

    "I think it's only a good thing for America when I'm not sure whom I'm going to vote for next time," was how Maher signed off.

    This, of course, was exactly the reaction Paul was looking for. The Kentucky Tea Party darling has positioned himself as the bridge between Republicans and the world outside the GOP bubble, building his all-but-declared presidential campaign around the idea that his libertarian views can broaden the party's appeal beyond old white men. Now, with that campaign basically underway, Paul's willingness to break with the hawks in his party—and to openly court a Hollywood liberal like Maher—is also an invitation to throw down with his Republican opponents, only intensifies internal party divisions over national security and foreign policy that will likely define the GOP race in 2016.

    The groundwork for this battle was laid last month, with Paul's speech to the Center for National Interest, a realist foreign policy think tank founded by Nixon acolytes. In a stuffy hotel ballroom on Central Park South, he laid out his foreign policy doctrine, christened "conservative realism," moonwalking the line between Republican hawkishness and non-interventionism.

    "America shouldn't fight wars where the best outcome is stalemate," Paul told the ballroom. "America shouldn't fight wars when there is no plan for victory. America shouldn't fight wars that aren't authorized by the American people, by Congress. America should and will fight wars when the consequences—intended and unintended—are worth the sacrifice. The war on terror is not over, and America cannot disengage from the world."

    Unlike his remarks to Maher, the CNI speech was obviously tailored to a Republican audience—in this case, a motley crew of Orthodox Jewish leaders, Nixon-era State Department wonks, and Grover Norquist. But beyond the obligatory praise of Ronald Reagan and equally obligatory jabs at Barack Obama, Paul's message seemed to be a repudiation of the post-9/11 foreign policies that have dragged the US through more than a decade of wars. "Stalemate and perpetual policing seem to be our mission now in Afghanistan, Iraq, and Syria," he said. "A precondition to the use of force must be a clear end goal. We can't have perpetual war."

    The speech didn't go nearly as far as some doves—including some fans of Paul's famously irascible father Ron—would have hoped. And his support for military intervention in Afghanistan, and against the Islamic State, seem particularly inconsistent with his not-fighting-any-wars-that-lack-a-plan-for-victory. But it succeeded in pitting Paul against his likely Republican presidential opponents—most of whom are still banging the drum for Bush-era "Mission Accomplished" jingoism—and also against the drone strikes and selective interventions of Obama and Hillary Clinton, the all-but-guaranteed 2016 Democratic presidential candidate.

    The speech was also remarkably well received ("I think I just heard Ronald Reagan speaking," quipped Norquist), elating Paul and his staff and emboldening his nascent campaign to take on the hawks. His camp's argument has always been that while the political establishment continues to buy into the post-9/11 war on terror doctrine, Paul is poised to tap into a growing isolationist streak among voters disillusioned and alienated by the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan.

    If Paul is looking for a fight, he's going to find one. The neocon wing of the GOP is in the midst of a resurgence thanks to public discontent over Obama's handling of foreign policy. All the new Republican senators elected in 2014 embrace more hawkish positions than Paul, which means that the neocon caucus will have a clear majority when the GOP takes control of the upper chamber next year. "The cavalry is coming over the hill!" South Carolina hawk ​Lindsey Graham gleefully told Jennifer Rubin, the Washington Post's resident neocon. That leaves Paul as a lone voice of dissent as the Senate grapples with questions like whether to send combat troops in to fight against the Islamic State, whether to keep troops in Afghanistan, and whether to approve a possible nuclear agreement with Iran. Since returning for the lame-duck last week, Paul has already said he will vote against the ​NSA​ reform package currently being considered in the Senate, in part because it extends the Patriot Act until 2017.

    Paul's positions put him in the center of an internecine battle that will, in all likelihood, define the Republican 2016 presidential race. In recent months, a steady parade of Paul's potential rivals have tried to pick fights over his supposed isolationism, jockeying to position themselves in relation to the libertarian-ish senator's foreign policy views. But Paul has mostly stayed steady, confident that this is a battle he will win. Win or lose, there's no question that he's got the party fighting on his terms.

    Follow Grace Wyler on ​Twitter.




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  3. #2
    I'll say this much, Rand Paul is downright brilliant. I just hope he's on my side.
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  4. #3
    the Washington Post's resident neocon
    That should be one of the Washington Post's resident neocons...

    "Foreign aid is taking money from the poor people of a rich country, and giving it to the rich people of a poor country." - Ron Paul
    "Beware the Military-Industrial-Financial-Pharma-Corporate-Internet-Media-Government Complex." - B4L update of General Dwight D. Eisenhower
    "Debt is the drug, Wall St. Banksters are the dealers, and politicians are the addicts." - B4L
    "Totally free immigration? I've never taken that position. I believe in national sovereignty." - Ron Paul

    Proponent of real science.
    The views and opinions expressed here are solely my own, and do not represent this forum or any other entities or persons.

  5. #4
    I'm ready.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Amash (R) MI-3rd
    "Young people want a Republican Party that believes in limited government and economic freedom and individual liberty, but they want a party that also acts on it.”

    THE FUTURE OF THE GOP = R[∃vo˩]ution 2.0: Rand Paul 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NOVALibertarian View Post
    First they ignore you= Ron Paul, 2007-2008
    Then they laugh at you= Ron Paul, 2012
    Then they fight you= Rand Paul, 2014-2015
    And then you win= Rand Paul, November 8th, 2016

  6. #5
    Quote Originally Posted by philipped View Post
    I'm ready.
    You're Ready for Rand?

    The First Libertarian-ish President of the United States?

  7. #6
    [T]he CNI speech was obviously tailored to a Republican audience—in this case, a motley crew of Orthodox Jewish leaders, Nixon-era State Department wonks, and Grover Norquist.
    I'd just like to point out that this is a great sentence. Ms. Wyler has an engaging prose style.
    “Do you not know, my son, with how little wisdom the world is governed?” - Oxenstiern

    Violence will not save us. Let us love one another, for love is from God.

  8. #7
    Would be great if when people dump a load of texts, they'd also have a tl;dr summary of what they just have read. It's good etiquette.

    Anyway, Rand's Rand. I'll sit this next election out, doing things I love. Too much time has been wasted on the last two campaigns. Beside, I'm pretty sure Rand's got a whole large base of voters that will dilute the libertarian name and there's nothing anarchists can do about it. "Libertariansim" has gone mainstream boys, run for the hills.

  9. #8
    I just hope during one of the debates Rand gets a chance to yell "Boo!" at one of the hawk-babies.

    Hey Grace -- you worried? Boo!
    The bigger government gets, the smaller I wish it was.
    My new motto: More Love, Less Laws



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    Would be great if when people dump a load of texts, they'd also have a tl;dr summary of what they just have read. It's good etiquette.

    Anyway, Rand's Rand. I'll sit this next election out, doing things I love. Too much time has been wasted on the last two campaigns. Beside, I'm pretty sure Rand's got a whole large base of voters that will dilute the libertarian name and there's nothing anarchists can do about it. "Libertariansim" has gone mainstream boys, run for the hills.
    I was libertarian before it was cool? You wasted time on two campaigns because it wasn't mainstream, now that it is you bail out? Makes sense.

  12. #10
    fans of Paul's famously irascible father Ron
    There must be a list words that never get used somewhere that journalist pass around to describe Ron Paul. I am sure I've never heard that word used in a sentence before.


    • irascible

      [ih-ras-uh-buh l] Spell Syllables




      adjective1.easily provoked to anger; very irritable:an irascible old man.


      2.characterized or produced by anger:an irascible response.









  13. #11
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    Would be great if when people dump a load of texts, they'd also have a tl;dr summary of what they just have read. It's good etiquette.

    Anyway, Rand's Rand. I'll sit this next election out, doing things I love. Too much time has been wasted on the last two campaigns. Beside, I'm pretty sure Rand's got a whole large base of voters that will dilute the libertarian name and there's nothing anarchists can do about it. "Libertariansim" has gone mainstream boys, run for the hills.
    Sitting the next one out is not an intelligent and brave way to stand up to the machine that stuck it to Ron and all of us all these years. And because Rand doesn't pitch the message exactly to your heart's content you're gonna run off? He's not trying to sell you anything, he's trying to reach all those people that you likely see on a daily basis and think to yourself how lost and ignorant they are of the facts. To gain those people and to keep the media and your opponents from running the demagogue train on your ass, you need to obviously speak slightly differently than the old man did while keeping the takeaway message mostly the same for all intents and purposes. Like me, a real ancap would see the value in trending and growing the smaller govt mentality in a way Rand's populist libertarian message is doing. Only then and after some semblance of prosperity returns can we even continue down the path to discussion of further marketization of all services currently being offered/forced on by the government and expect any traction from it outside measuring our shlongs in ancap iconoclasm 101 class.

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by FSP-Rebel View Post
    Sitting the next one out is not an intelligent and brave way to stand up to the machine that stuck it to Ron and all of us all these years. And because Rand doesn't pitch the message exactly to your heart's content you're gonna run off? He's not trying to sell you anything, he's trying to reach all those people that you likely see on a daily basis and think to yourself how lost and ignorant they are of the facts. To gain those people and to keep the media and your opponents from running the demagogue train on your ass, you need to obviously speak slightly differently than the old man did while keeping the takeaway message mostly the same for all intents and purposes. Like me, a real ancap would see the value in trending and growing the smaller govt mentality in a way Rand's populist libertarian message is doing. Only then and after some semblance of prosperity returns can we even continue down the path to discussion of further marketization of all services currently being offered/forced on by the government and expect any traction from it outside measuring our shlongs in ancap iconoclasm 101 class.
    I disagree. He should do whatever he wants. Rand Paul isn't the life and death of liberty. Neither is Ron Paul. Spread liberty in the way you want and don't listen to what other people tell you what you "should do" or whether it's the "brave or intelligent" way to do it.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    Would be great if when people dump a load of texts, they'd also have a tl;dr summary of what they just have read. It's good etiquette.
    Rand is ready for a fight against the neocons.

    Anyway, Rand's Rand. I'll sit this next election out, doing things I love. Too much time has been wasted on the last two campaigns. Beside, I'm pretty sure Rand's got a whole large base of voters that will dilute the libertarian name and there's nothing anarchists can do about it. "Libertariansim" has gone mainstream boys, run for the hills.
    Hasta la vista!
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    Would be great if when people dump a load of texts, they'd also have a tl;dr summary of what they just have read. It's good etiquette.

    Anyway, Rand's Rand. I'll sit this next election out, doing things I love. Too much time has been wasted on the last two campaigns. Beside, I'm pretty sure Rand's got a whole large base of voters that will dilute the libertarian name and there's nothing anarchists can do about it. "Libertariansim" has gone mainstream boys, run for the hills.
    Got to stop the train first. Then we can bring it back home. Rand will certainly stop the train and then some.
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
    James Madison

    "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams



    Μολὼν λάβε
    Dum Spiro, Pugno
    Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    Would be great if when people dump a load of texts, they'd also have a tl;dr summary of what they just have read. It's good etiquette.

    Anyway, Rand's Rand. I'll sit this next election out, doing things I love. Too much time has been wasted on the last two campaigns. Beside, I'm pretty sure Rand's got a whole large base of voters that will dilute the libertarian name and there's nothing anarchists can do about it. "Libertariansim" has gone mainstream boys, run for the hills.
    Agreed. Twenty years from now, we'll be looking back and say "Man, things were so much better when we were getting 1% of the vote and when Gary Johnson crowd-surfed. Winning and implementing our ideology just sucks."

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeman View Post
    I was libertarian before it was cool? You wasted time on two campaigns because it wasn't mainstream, now that it is you bail out? Makes sense.
    Holy smoke, people here actually think libertarianism has gone mainstream. Has delusion finally taken over from continually disappointment?

    Sarcasm does really get lost on the internet, even when I clearly quoted it. I'll be frank then, Rand Paul is not a libertarian or does he represents libertarianism. He calls himself a constitutionalist conservative(whatever that means). Rand wants to get far far away from the libertarian label if he could. But he will continually have to face that legacy simply by association through his father. The media will use his father as the crazy-cookie-libertarian against him. He'll then roll his dad under the bus like he has been doing since the endorsement of Romney in June 2012.

    I want to make it really clear for those who holds the libertarian message lightly going into 2016, the libertarian crowds will NOT be represented in Rand's campaign at any level. Not in the grassroots, not at the states level, nor even the organized DC Beltway libertarians. If libertarians think they will be included in the national scene in 2016, they are clearly delusional.

    The Rand's campaign machine will be hierarchically and corporationally lobbied. It will represent the old hacks of Tea Party-types, corporatist republicans, and probably even some moderate democrat organizations. The libertarians will only be the laughing-stock.

    Why? because the financial support from libertarians will be a blip compare to organizational donations. Libertarians have no financial strings to pull on Rand.

    So that's the case, I hope I was frank enough this time.
    Last edited by Nolan; 11-23-2014 at 05:56 PM.



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  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by FSP-Rebel View Post
    Sitting the next one out is not an intelligent and brave way to stand up to the machine that stuck it to Ron and all of us all these years. And because Rand doesn't pitch the message exactly to your heart's content you're gonna run off? He's not trying to sell you anything, he's trying to reach all those people that you likely see on a daily basis and think to yourself how lost and ignorant they are of the facts. To gain those people and to keep the media and your opponents from running the demagogue train on your ass, you need to obviously speak slightly differently than the old man did while keeping the takeaway message mostly the same for all intents and purposes. Like me, a real ancap would see the value in trending and growing the smaller govt mentality in a way Rand's populist libertarian message is doing. Only then and after some semblance of prosperity returns can we even continue down the path to discussion of further marketization of all services currently being offered/forced on by the government and expect any traction from it outside measuring our shlongs in ancap iconoclasm 101 class.

    I support Rand Paul, but I'll be honest, "winning" isn't the biggest thing for me. Principle is. In part, that's because of my faith. I know that even if I lose, I still win. I can see why a secular libertarian would be willing to do anything and everything that will get them a little bit more freedom in this life. I won't. And at a certain point, if Rand gets to a point where I can't morally support him, I won't.
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    Holy smoke, people here actually think libertarianism has gone mainstream. Has delusion finally taken over from continually disappointment?

    Sarcasm does really get lost on the internet, even when I clearly quoted it. I'll be frank then, Rand Paul is not a libertarian or does he represents libertarianism. He calls himself a constitutionalist conservative(whatever that means). Rand wants to get far far away from the libertarian label if he could. But he will continually have to face that legacy simply by association through his father. The media will use his father as the crazy-cookie-libertarian against him. He'll then roll his dad under the bus like he has been doing since the endorsement of Romney in June 2012.

    I want to make it really clear for those who holds the libertarian message lightly going into 2016, the libertarian crowds will NOT be represented in Rand's campaign at any level. Not in the grassroots, not at the states level, nor even the organized DC Beltway libertarians. If libertarians think they will be included in the national scene in 2016, they are clearly delusional.

    The Rand's campaign machine will be hierarchically and corporationally lobbied. It will represent the old hacks of Tea Party-types, corporatist republicans, and probably even some moderate democrat organizations. The libertarians will only be the laughing-stock.

    Why? because the financial support from libertarians will be a blip compare to organizational donations. Libertarians have no financial strings to pull on Rand.

    So that's the case, I hope I was frank enough this time.
    Just because Rand isn't a libertarian doesn't mean he doesn't want libertarians involved in his campaign. I think he'd flee from "anarchist" though...
    This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I support Rand Paul, but I'll be honest, "winning" isn't the biggest thing for me. Principle is. In part, that's because of my faith. I know that even if I lose, I still win. I can see why a secular libertarian would be willing to do anything and everything that will get them a little bit more freedom in this life. I won't. And at a certain point, if Rand gets to a point where I can't morally support him, I won't.
    I'm glad to have you on these forums even though we have plenty of disagreements. A few years ago I was much more like you than I am now.
    I'm a Christian as well but I don't feel the same conviction you do though about what I'd do so see more freedom in this life.

    I've got two young kids (4 and 2 y/o) and another on the way. They're my biggest motivation, honestly. Before I was a father I was a lot more idealistic but after my first child was born I felt a need to leave her as much freedom as I could. Purist principled ideology be damned if need be.
    I'm much more focused on results than I am principles now, but, the results are based on my principles (if that makes sense).

    This isn't meant to be argumentative, I'm just trying to explain myself.

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by Rudeman View Post
    I was libertarian before it was cool? You wasted time on two campaigns because it wasn't mainstream, now that it is you bail out? Makes sense.
    Basically half the movement to this point are political hipsters. The *entire* LP party are political hipsters. Their self-worth and self-identity are wrapped up in being outsiders and million to one long shots, its their excuse for failure, and their point of distinction.

    Psychologically a tonne of Ron Paul people *can't* handle the thought of actually winning. It's unfortunate because their support would be awesome.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Basically half the movement to this point are political hipsters. The *entire* LP party are political hipsters. Their self-worth and self-identity are wrapped up in being outsiders and million to one long shots, its their excuse for failure, and their point of distinction.

    Psychologically a tonne of Ron Paul people *can't* handle the thought of actually winning. It's unfortunate because their support would be awesome.


    Oh $#@! someone said it!
    "Liberty lies in the hearts of men and women; when it dies there, no constitution, no law, no court can save it; no constitution, no law, no court can even do much to help it."
    James Madison

    "It does not take a majority to prevail ... but rather an irate, tireless minority, keen on setting brushfires of freedom in the minds of men." - Samuel Adams



    Μολὼν λάβε
    Dum Spiro, Pugno
    Tu ne cede malis sed contra audentior ito

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Basically half the movement to this point are political hipsters. The *entire* LP party are political hipsters. Their self-worth and self-identity are wrapped up in being outsiders and million to one long shots, its their excuse for failure, and their point of distinction.

    Psychologically a tonne of Ron Paul people *can't* handle the thought of actually winning. It's unfortunate because their support would be awesome.
    There are two members of the LP I can name off hand. The first is Ron Paul. He obviously won his congressional district but rarely had first place showings (or close) in the primaries (he had more business in those debates and in that process than most). Your characterization of him above is off. The other member is Gary Johnson, ex-governor of New Mexico. I doubt he is a hipster however he might be filling some sort of hole in life.

    I value him and others filling a slot on the ballot I would otherwise leave blank.

    Either way, $#@! off.

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by Nolan View Post
    Holy smoke, people here actually think libertarianism has gone mainstream. Has delusion finally taken over from continually disappointment?

    Sarcasm does really get lost on the internet, even when I clearly quoted it. I'll be frank then, Rand Paul is not a libertarian or does he represents libertarianism. He calls himself a constitutionalist conservative(whatever that means). Rand wants to get far far away from the libertarian label if he could. But he will continually have to face that legacy simply by association through his father. The media will use his father as the crazy-cookie-libertarian against him. He'll then roll his dad under the bus like he has been doing since the endorsement of Romney in June 2012.

    I want to make it really clear for those who holds the libertarian message lightly going into 2016, the libertarian crowds will NOT be represented in Rand's campaign at any level. Not in the grassroots, not at the states level, nor even the organized DC Beltway libertarians. If libertarians think they will be included in the national scene in 2016, they are clearly delusional.

    The Rand's campaign machine will be hierarchically and corporationally lobbied. It will represent the old hacks of Tea Party-types, corporatist republicans, and probably even some moderate democrat organizations. The libertarians will only be the laughing-stock.

    Why? because the financial support from libertarians will be a blip compare to organizational donations. Libertarians have no financial strings to pull on Rand.

    So that's the case, I hope I was frank enough this time.
    What Rand has tried to get away from are the anarchists (which you seem to imply that you are one). Just because Rand doesn't label himself as libertarian does not mean his ideas/message aren't libertarian.

    I also think it's weird that people still hold onto a grudge over the Romney endorsement, if it didn't bother Ron then why should it bother you that much. You nor I have any idea what their (Rand and Ron) personal conversations were at the time so why get so twisted over it?

    Libertarians are already included in his campaign, it won't be exclusively libertarian and I honestly don't blame him if his intentions are to win. It won't guarantee a win but it will certainly improve the likelihood of his campaign being successful instead of a waste of time...

    BTW just a fyi you are right that sarcasm is lost on the internet otherwise you would have noticed my response was sarcastic. Your position was made fairly clear in your initial post and the secondary post only confirms it.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by FreedomFanatic View Post
    I'll say this much, Rand Paul is downright brilliant. I just hope he's on my side.
    That is the problem though, isn't it? I can't tell. I don't buy the "secret libertarian" conspiracy so many have about Rand only saying things to win over the party but he will be 100% libertarian once elected. I believe what the man says. Which makes him more of a paleo-conservative in my book. But there is still the small possiblilty he is playing a game of deception. If so, the problem is finding out who he is trying to trick, us or them.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by The Free Hornet View Post
    There are two members of the LP I can name off hand. The first is Ron Paul. He obviously won his congressional district but rarely had first place showings (or close) in the primaries (he had more business in those debates and in that process than most). Your characterization of him above is off. The other member is Gary Johnson, ex-governor of New Mexico. I doubt he is a hipster however he might be filling some sort of hole in life.

    I value him and others filling a slot on the ballot I would otherwise leave blank.

    Either way, $#@! off.
    Two people who ran against each other are your citations of the solidarity and pragmatism of the LP? Are you kidding me?
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care



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  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by PierzStyx View Post
    That is the problem though, isn't it? I can't tell. I don't buy the "secret libertarian" conspiracy so many have about Rand only saying things to win over the party but he will be 100% libertarian once elected. I believe what the man says. Which makes him more of a paleo-conservative in my book. But there is still the small possibility he is playing a game of deception. If so, the problem is finding out who he is trying to trick, us or them.
    If he came out as 100% libertarian when elected it would destroy libertarianism forever.

    You don't want that in one hit as much as you may dream about it in the wee hours.

    No candidate will will the Presidency if he runs on a platform of dissolving the United States in 2016, so one has to figure out what the hell one is trying to achieve.

    Democracy is largely incremental. It is the way it works best and the way the Republic is designed.

    You cannot trick the public into becoming honest citizens, they have to hit rock bottom and get there for themselves.
    Last edited by idiom; 11-24-2014 at 03:22 AM.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

  30. #26
    I can't believe how many people here will just run off, or worse, stick around to derail the the campaign of the most freedom oriented presidential prospect we have seen in our lifetimes - only because he doesn't take a strick libertarian stand on every single issue.

    Not to be insulting, but isn't that just the stupidest thing ever? I mean Rand has a very real shot at becoming president. Think about that. Instead of a McCain, a Grahm, a Bush, a Christie, a Obama, or a Hillary- there could be a Paul. He, like his every position or not, is LIGHTYEARS ahead of the long list of other establishment picks.

    Seriously, what alternative do you have to Paul that actually has a snowball's chance in hell?

    Libertarianism is NOT mainstream, certain ideas are becoming popular, but even myself, a lover of liberty, I would not vote for a libertarian over Paul just because it's a L instead of a R. Gary Johnson? Heck no, the dude is a dud he is not inspiring and his postitions do not represent me and mine.

    I truly believe that Rand can turn this nation of fools in a better direction. I believe he will use the power as president to do good things. And he could use your support. Unless there is a better alternative presented, there is no reason not to support the chance to get the 2nd best option in. I would have preferred Ron be in the White House too, but guess what- he's NOT. Fix the problem get support to someone who can win the hearts of people.

  31. #27
    I think Rand will end up running on the libertarian ticket after he's cheated out of the Republican nomination. There's no way Sheldon Adelson will allow Rand to get the nomination. He'll spend billions. That would fulfill Marty's rise of a 3rd party scenario. At this point, I just can't figure out who else it would be besides Rand.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by ctiger2 View Post
    I think Rand will end up running on the libertarian ticket after he's cheated out of the Republican nomination. There's no way Sheldon Adelson will allow Rand to get the nomination. He'll spend billions. That would fulfill Marty's rise of a 3rd party scenario. At this point, I just can't figure out who else it would be besides Rand.
    Rand will endorse ROMNEY AGAIN before running 3rd party to have a chance in 2020 if a Dem wins. He's libertarian-leaning but I'm pretty sure LP national officials wouldn't accept him. It's only because just this year he was sent in by GOP people to dim down libertarian candidate polling and ensure Republican victories.

    Rand wants to court the moderate middle of the ground in the party, while keeping libertarian ideals at the core of the philosophy and the campaign. I don't want to see a RAND PAUL LIBERTARIAN PARTY NOMINEE on my ballot in 2016. It would feel way to unauthentic. Let's work in the Republican Party to either create a landslide or a reluctance to nominate him. Nows not the time to back down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Amash (R) MI-3rd
    "Young people want a Republican Party that believes in limited government and economic freedom and individual liberty, but they want a party that also acts on it.”

    THE FUTURE OF THE GOP = R[∃vo˩]ution 2.0: Rand Paul 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NOVALibertarian View Post
    First they ignore you= Ron Paul, 2007-2008
    Then they laugh at you= Ron Paul, 2012
    Then they fight you= Rand Paul, 2014-2015
    And then you win= Rand Paul, November 8th, 2016

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by ctiger2 View Post
    I think Rand will end up running on the libertarian ticket after he's cheated out of the Republican nomination. There's no way Sheldon Adelson will allow Rand to get the nomination. He'll spend billions. That would fulfill Marty's rise of a 3rd party scenario. At this point, I just can't figure out who else it would be besides Rand.
    Rand will endorse ROMNEY AGAIN before running 3rd party to have a chance in 2020 if a Dem wins. He's libertarian-leaning but I'm pretty sure LP national officials wouldn't accept him. It's only because just this year he was sent in by GOP people to dim down libertarian candidate polling and ensure Republican victories.

    Rand wants to court the moderate middle of the ground in the party, while keeping libertarian ideals at the core of the philosophy and the campaign. I don't want to see a RAND PAUL LIBERTARIAN PARTY NOMINEE on my ballot in 2016. It would feel way to unauthentic. Let's work in the Republican Party to either create a landslide or a reluctance to nominate him. Nows not the time to back down.
    Quote Originally Posted by Justin Amash (R) MI-3rd
    "Young people want a Republican Party that believes in limited government and economic freedom and individual liberty, but they want a party that also acts on it.”

    THE FUTURE OF THE GOP = R[∃vo˩]ution 2.0: Rand Paul 2016

    Quote Originally Posted by NOVALibertarian View Post
    First they ignore you= Ron Paul, 2007-2008
    Then they laugh at you= Ron Paul, 2012
    Then they fight you= Rand Paul, 2014-2015
    And then you win= Rand Paul, November 8th, 2016

  34. #30
    Come 2020, Rand won't have a senate seat to defend, and will have 10 years under hi belt. He might even be the senior senator by then.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care

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