Circumstances similar to Ferguson

[tod evans]

Florida sheriff’s deputy shoots, kills woman after she grabs gun

http://www.foxnews.com/us/2014/11/17...cmp=latestnews

A north Florida sheriff's deputy fatally shot a woman who had grabbed his stun gun during an altercation and pointed it at him.

The Citrus County Sheriff's Office says the shooting occurred early Monday morning at the entrance to a mobile home park in Inverness.

The deputy was responding to a disturbance call early Monday after someone called to report that 46-year-old Dawn Renee Cameron was trying to light her neighbor's truck on fire. According to an incident report, the deputy fired after she pointed the stun gun at him.

She was treated at the scene, then taken to a hospital where she died.

The deputy's name hasn't been released. He's on administrative leave, pending an investigation by the Florida Department of Law Enforcement.


Wrong age/sex and color.....

[staerker]

I look forward to the verdict on this...if someone points a stun gun at you, it is legal to take their life?

Good to know.

[sparebulb]

I'm sure that the officer feared for his life.

Magic words.


Next...

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

The deputy was responding to a disturbance call early Monday after someone called to report that 46-year-old Dawn Renee Cameron was trying to light her neighbor's truck on fire.

Yeah, uh huh. Lighting it on fire. I'm not believing that unless I see a video with her, gasoline, and some matches. I once doused my roommates belongings in kerosene to ruin her stuff and she told the police I was intending to burn down her house. This woman who was shot probably poured Boone's Farm on the truck seat while dangling a cigarette ash from her mouth.

[maybemaybenot]

I look forward to the verdict on this...if someone points a stun gun at you, it is legal to take their life?

Good to know.

Yep, you sure can, it can kill you. It can really $#@! with your heart. Frankly, I think I have the right to shoot someone in the face for scratching me, violent aggressors don't deserve to set the terms of the violence they start, my flawless skin is more important then their life. But legally, your life needs to be in danger, and a stun gun can kill you. And you could argue that after being tased, your life would be in more danger after that as well.

[morfeeis]

I disagree that this is similar to that of the Ferguson situation. the idea that he did grab the gun to inflect harm and not attempt to get an on the record liar to not shoot him for no reason is still up for debate.

[TheCount]

You have an awfully broad definition of similar.

[staerker]

Yep, you sure can, it can kill you. It can really $#@! with your heart. Frankly, I think I have the right to shoot someone in the face for scratching me, violent aggressors don't deserve to set the terms of the violence they start, my flawless skin is more important then their life. But legally, your life needs to be in danger, and a stun gun can kill you. And you could argue that after being tased, your life would be in more danger after that as well.

Indeed. But my point was that, if the cop is not guilty, then they are admitting what they don't want to admit.

[navy-vet]

Apples to oranges....victim is a common mundane and not an oppressed minority.
Pretty much what Todd said.

[SeanTX]

Funny how when a mundane points a taser at a cop (if that did happen) it's considered "lethal force" being directed against the officer, and the officer can then use lethal force in return.

However, a cop can use a taser against you just as a torture device because you pissed him/her off, and then it's considered "less than lethal."

[navy-vet]

A cop can't afford for someone to incapacitate them with a taser or any thing else. I mean, here you lie knocked out or incapacitated while the person removes your weapon and blows your head off.

[sparebulb]

A cop can't afford for someone to incapacitate them with a taser or any thing else. I mean, here you lie knocked out or incapacitated while the person removes your weapon and blows your head off.

Can anyone now?

[brushfire]

Apples to oranges....victim is a common mundane and not an oppressed minority.
Pretty much what Todd said.

Well, apples and oranges in other aspects as well. The deputy was actually dispatched due to the woman trying to light the truck on fire. Rational people generally dont tend to light trucks on fire (then again, maybe there was an undocumented ebola case or something). Who knows what went down, but on its face, if one has got a sidearm and is threatened with a taser, its probably not unreasonable to shoot. If the deputy is taken out of commission due to the tasing, the woman may then have access to the sidearm. Then what?

Again, this isn't judgment, my argument is that this case looks a little different in a number of ways. I completely understand that there are evil police out there, lots of them, but I also believe in one's right to defend themselves. Even if its a cop...

I'm sure there are a sh!t load of details that will come out - my opinion is based on the limited detail in this article, and that opinion is subject to change as the real story begins to develop.

[Wooden Indian]

Not a LEO supporter but if someone points a taser at me, I'd likely fire my weapon on them. Don't see much wrong here unless I missed something.

[staerker]

Not a LEO supporter but if someone points a taser at me, I'd likely fire my weapon on them. Don't see much wrong here unless I missed something.

Would it be equally as moral if a cop pointed a taser at you, and you shot?

[Wooden Indian]

Absolutely

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You have an awfully broad definition of similar.

How so? I see a lot of similarity:

• Someone called the police for alleged criminal activity in both cases.
• Both the unidentified Florida deputy and Darren Wilson claimed the alleged perp grabbed for the officer's weapon, but there is no corroborating evidence in either case.
• Both officers went unidentified immediately after the event.
• I would assume that both officers claimed fear for their safety in using their firearm. There is practically no other claim they can make.
• Both stories of officer safety imperiled seem dubious in both cases. Corroborated eyewitness accounts suggest Brown had his hands up. The idea of lighting a truck on fire is possible, but I will bet it did not happen. I will also bet that the 46 year old woman did not grab a stun gun and point it at the deputy. Sounds more improbable than possible. Bad $#@! and lies stink just the same.
• Dead people tell no tales.

[idiom]

Not a LEO supporter but if someone points a taser at me, I'd likely fire my weapon on them. Don't see much wrong here unless I missed something.

What the hell people.

LEO's job is talk down armed and threatening people. They are peace officers not war officers. If they are good at their jobs they should be able to get through life with naught but a truncheon.

It is reasonable for you to shoot when threatened, you are not a professional. It is not reasonable for a cop to shoot first ever.

One of the large differences between America and most of the west is that getting on the wrong side of the law in the US is game over. Elsewhere you murder someone, in rage or accidentally, you get ~5-10 years and rehabilitated, so you are much more likely to turn yourself in. When you get out you are probably a better citizen than when you went in.

In the US just getting arrested and charged is quite possibly the end of your productive life. There is no motive or expectation to co-operate with law enforcement. There is an insane mentality of 'never gonna take me alive' because the system is so extreme.

[squarepusher]

I am against police killing citizens !

[acptulsa]

Apples to oranges....victim is a common mundane and not an oppressed minority.
Pretty much what Todd said.

Sexist!

[aGameOfThrones]

How so? I see a lot of similarity:

• Someone called the police for alleged criminal activity in both cases.
• Both the unidentified Florida deputy and Darren Wilson claimed the alleged perp grabbed for the officer's weapon, but there is no corroborating evidence in either case.
• Both officers went unidentified immediately after the event.
• I would assume that both officers claimed fear for their safety in using their firearm. There is practically no other claim they can make.
• Both stories of officer safety imperiled seem dubious in both cases. Corroborated eyewitness accounts suggest Brown had his hands up. The idea of lighting a truck on fire is possible, but I will bet it did not happen. I will also bet that the 46 year old woman did not grab a stun gun and point it at the deputy. Sounds more improbable than possible. Bad $#@! and lies stink just the same.
• Dead people tell no tales.

[maybemaybenot]

How so? I see a lot of similarity:

• Someone called the police for alleged criminal activity in both cases.
• Both the unidentified Florida deputy and Darren Wilson claimed the alleged perp grabbed for the officer's weapon, but there is no corroborating evidence in either case.
• Both officers went unidentified immediately after the event.
• I would assume that both officers claimed fear for their safety in using their firearm. There is practically no other claim they can make.
• Both stories of officer safety imperiled seem dubious in both cases. Corroborated eyewitness accounts suggest Brown had his hands up. The idea of lighting a truck on fire is possible, but I will bet it did not happen. I will also bet that the 46 year old woman did not grab a stun gun and point it at the deputy. Sounds more improbable than possible. Bad $#@! and lies stink just the same.
• Dead people tell no tales.

I hate cops as much as anyone, I want cameras on them, but I'm not throwing Darren Wilson under the bus over it. There is corroborating evidence that Brown grabbed his gun (with the caveat that all of this is leaks, and technically we don't know any evidence): an autopsy report concluded that a gunshot to the hand was at close range (because of gun powder right by the wound itself?), and 6 black witnesses have told the grand jury that Brown reached into the vehicle and started the violent altercation. I don't know anything else, I'm not saying Wilson was right or wrong for firing shots after that, but there is evidence for Brown starting the altercation and trying to grab the gun.

Your only logic is that cops lie so stop trusting them, which really just amounts to cops not being allowed to kill when their life is in danger, because then you'll just assume it was murder and ignore their explanation (and forensic and eyewitness evidence that doesn't fit your predetermined view of the officer). Whether Wilson is a criminal or not, Michael Brown is a criminal for robbing a store and attacking an officer. He does not deserve the presumption that he was acting reasonably and innocently after initiating all of the violence in the first place (and he's not on trial, so f*ck the presumption of innocence, Wilson gets the presumption of innocence because he's the one whose freedom is on the line now).

[aGameOfThrones]

I hate cops as much as anyone, I want cameras on them, but I'm not throwing Darren Wilson under the bus over it. There is corroborating evidence that Brown grabbed his gun (with the caveat that all of this is leaks, and technically we don't know any evidence): an autopsy report concluded that a gunshot to the hand was at close range (because of gun powder right by the wound itself?), and 6 black witnesses have told the grand jury that Brown reached into the vehicle and started the violent altercation. I don't know anything else, I'm not saying Wilson was right or wrong for firing shots after that, but there is evidence for Brown starting the altercation and trying to grab the gun.

Your only logic is that cops lie so stop trusting them, which really just amounts to cops not being allowed to kill when their life is in danger, because then you'll just assume it was murder and ignore their explanation (and forensic and eyewitness evidence that doesn't fit your predetermined view of the officer). Whether Wilson is a criminal or not, Michael Brown is a criminal for robbing a store and attacking an officer. He does not deserve the presumption that he was acting reasonably and innocently after initiating all of the violence in the first place (and he's not on trial, so f*ck the presumption of innocence, Wilson gets the presumption of innocence because he's the one whose freedom is on the line now).

the aggressor changed?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

There is corroborating evidence that Brown grabbed his gun[/B] (with the caveat that all of this is leaks, and technically we don't know any evidence)

What evidence is that? The anonymous woman to the radio call in show whose story quickly unraveled? The broken eye socket that never materialized? The "$50 box of cigars" that actually turned out to be packs of cigars with an undetermined value? The false claim of Brown "bullrushing" Wilson that was not substantiated by anyone?

an autopsy report concluded that a gunshot to the hand was at close range (because of gun powder right by the wound itself?),

That's not evidence that Brown grabbed the gun or even reached for it. Brown could have stuck up his hand in a defensive posture. The only autopsy conclusion that can be possibly be drawn is the distance.

and 6 black witnesses have told the grand jury that Brown reached into the vehicle and started the violent altercation

No, that is totally inaccurate.

I don't know anything else

You have been totally inaccurate so far, so you might as well say you don't know anything at all.

Michael Brown is a criminal for robbing a store

No.

Michael Brown is a criminal for...attacking an officer.

No.

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

Your only logic is that cops lie so stop trusting them,

Everything I posted is based on evidence.

...because then you'll just assume it was murder and ignore their explanation

What explanation is that? Wilson has presented no public explanation. The police report narrative describing the incident is completely blank.

(and forensic and eyewitness evidence that doesn't fit your predetermined view of the officer).

My opinion is based on the autopsy and listening to the eyewitness accounts. Did you read the autopsy or just a the report about the autopsy? Did you listen to any of the eyewitness accounts?

[SeanTX]

That's not evidence that Brown grabbed the gun or even reached for it. Brown could have stuck up his hand in a defensive posture.

I still think that the other guy's story may be true, that Wilson pulled up next to them and slammed his car door into Brown (which would be assault if any of us lesser beings did such a thing). I've seen video of a cop intentionally slamming a car door on somebody's leg -- it's not outside the realm of possibility for a cop to do something so stupidly aggressive like that.

And Brown then reacted to that by pushing back and may have tried to get in a punch or two through the open window (which of course is wrong, mundanes are never allowed to assault officers who have assaulted them, he should have just said "yas suh, please don't hit me no mo suh" and then gone to his knees).

Since Brown had just stolen some cigars he was probably on edge already thinking that he was about to go down for that, so when that door hit him he went into total fight or flight mode, maybe thinking he was about to die like so many others have when stopped by the police.

As far as cop lies go, "the suspect tried to grab my gun" ranks right up there with cops yelling "stop resisting!" whle they beat the snot out of somebody who is curled up in a fetal position compliantly taking the beating.

I think Wilson was totally frightened that for once somebody tried to fight back against his bullying, so much that he panicked and went into mag dump mode -- with a final kill shot when Brown had retreated 30 feet away. And afterwards he knew he had an "out" by trotting out the old "he was going for my gun" line .

[maybemaybenot]

What evidence is that? The anonymous woman to the radio call in show whose story quickly unraveled? The broken eye socket that never materialized? The "$50 box of cigars" that actually turned out to be packs of cigars with an undetermined value? The false claim of Brown "bullrushing" Wilson that was not substantiated by anyone?




That's not evidence that Brown grabbed the gun or even reached for it. Brown could have stuck up his hand in a defensive posture. The only autopsy conclusion that can be possibly be drawn is the distance.

You've been watching the grand jury proceedings?

"But more than a half-dozen unnamed black witnesses have provided testimony to a St. Louis County grand jury that largely supports Wilson’s account of events of Aug. 9, according to several people familiar with the investigation who spoke with The Washington Post."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/politics/new-evidence-supports-officers-account-of-shooting-in-ferguson/2014/10/22/cf38c7b4-5964-11e4-bd61-346aee66ba29_story.html

And a gunshot wound close to the hand, combined with eyewitness testimony that he reached into the car, is evidence that he attacked the officer first. I'm not talking about ppl calling into radio shows.

[Wooden Indian]

What the hell people.

LEO's job is talk down armed and threatening people. They are peace officers not war officers. If they are good at their jobs they should be able to get through life with naught but a truncheon.

It is reasonable for you to shoot when threatened, you are not a professional. It is not reasonable for a cop to shoot first ever.

One of the large differences between America and most of the west is that getting on the wrong side of the law in the US is game over. Elsewhere you murder someone, in rage or accidentally, you get ~5-10 years and rehabilitated, so you are much more likely to turn yourself in. When you get out you are probably a better citizen than when you went in.

In the US just getting arrested and charged is quite possibly the end of your productive life. There is no motive or expectation to co-operate with law enforcement. There is an insane mentality of 'never gonna take me alive' because the system is so extreme.

Again, I don't just not "like" cops... I outright HATE them, their profession anyhow.
So, when I say this, it is not in defense of their policies, profession, or anything in between, but once a taser or a firearm is pointed directly at them, I am okay with them firing. Why? Once we lose muscle control, that firearm is hitting the dirt and him right a long with it. Does the shooter flee or grab it and finish me off?

If they chose door number 2, they are dead. No coming back. No more Turkey dinners, no more birthday cake, no more catch with the kids. Dead. While, I would rather they not exist in the first place, being that they do, when placed in actual mortal danger, I take no issues with them firing first.

Pointing a taser at a man with a gun is bat-$#@! crazy. Now, if this were a knife at 10+ feet, I'd be bitching.

Now, that I have defended a cop... I feel dirty. Need to take a shower with a brillo pad and some bleach. Be back later.

[morfeeis]

Since Brown had just stolen some cigars he was probably on edge already thinking that he was about to go down for that, so when that door hit him he went into total fight or flight mode, maybe thinking he was about to die like so many others have when stopped by the police.

From a psychological point of view this is the main things that have never sat well with me when looking at the brown case. This kid has never been in any type of physical assault problems and even in the video he uses his size to intimidate the store clerk and doesn’t use brutal force even when he had a clear advantage. But moments later he starts punching a cop and grabs his gun for a small beef over a box of smokes, that fits no profile I’ve ever read.


But since the powers that be say it is so, it must be right?

[NorthCarolinaLiberty]

You've been watching the grand jury proceedings?

No. And neither have you unless you are physically present at the court.

And a gunshot wound close to the hand,...is evidence that he attacked the officer first.

No, it is not.

combined with eyewitness testimony that he reached into the car

There is no publicly available eyewitness testimony that Brown reached in the car. There are no eyewitness accounts stating that Brown reached into the car. The only eyewitness account that discusses this, in fact, states that Brown's hands were outside the car, and that Wilson was pulling Brown into the car.

I'm not talking about ppl calling into radio shows.

You're talking about anonymous sources who told a newspaper that Wilson's account is supported by some grand jury witnesses. That's the extent of it.
The radio show woman was also anonymous. That woman's third hand story has since been shown to be completely at odds with no less than six eyewitnesses who contradicted her.




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