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Thread: The end of commercial fishing in New England

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by coastie View Post
    The only way this would work would for it to be overwhelming in numbers.
    Doesn't matter if the Cod are all dead.

    Better off putting some effort into intense research into what's gone wrong.
    In New Zealand:
    The Coastguard is a Charity
    Air Traffic Control is a private company run on user fees
    The DMV is a private non-profit
    Rescue helicopters and ambulances are operated by charities and are plastered with corporate logos
    The agriculture industry has zero subsidies
    5% of the national vote, gets you 5 seats in Parliament
    A tax return has 4 fields
    Business licenses aren't a thing
    Prostitution is legal
    We have a constitutional right to refuse any type of medical care



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  3. #32



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Inkblots View Post
    Treating the fisheries as a public commons and then regulating it via quotas that are subject to all kinds of political pressure is madness. Surely there must be some way to privatize the fisheries? If each sea sector were someone's private property, the tragedy of the commons wouldn't be an issue, and fish stocks could be managed without political interference and, yes, Regulation without Representation as Anti-Fed says.

    It wouldn't be easy, but I'm sure with careful planning it would be possible.
    I agree. It seems that with GPS technology, we'd be able to sell off large sections of the waters to private ownership. I see no reason why it has to be different than land.
    You could still have international seaways where ship traffic could travel while ensuring the private property rights of others' sea ownership. I know I'd take pretty good care of my section of the ocean if it meant more profitable sea life would migrate there.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    I agree. It seems that with GPS technology, we'd be able to sell off large sections of the waters to private ownership. I see no reason why it has to be different than land.
    You could still have international seaways where ship traffic could travel while ensuring the private property rights of others' sea ownership. I know I'd take pretty good care of my section of the ocean if it meant more profitable sea life would migrate there.
    I'm dead set against this idea!

    All I see is a more intrusive government trying to manage it.

    Not even discussing the men and women who have spent decades learning to fish open waters effectively....

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by scottditzen View Post
    Privatization could turn into an even worse nightmare. Man, I just don't say any good way to deal with this.
    As the yield of cod becomes lower in both size and quality the price will go up to the point that cod aquaculture becomes more profitable. It is already well established in Norway. Our course the environmentalists don't like it either. This is about CONTROL pure and simple.

    XNN

    Rapid growth in European cod farming prompts fears from green groups

    Norway, which accounts for around 80% of the world's farmed cod production, increased its national production by 59% from 10,375 tonnes in 2007 to 16,523 tonnes in 2008. The figures, from the country's Directorate of Fisheries confirm the rapid growth in the cod farming industry, but they have prompted fears from green groups that the expansion will lead to more escapes from farms and contamination of the gene pool of wild populations.

    "We are very concerned at the current levels of cod farming," said Nina Jensen, head of conservation at WWF Norway. "No environmental impact studies of cod farms have been done, there are no restrictions on location, there are no restrictions on the protection of spawning grounds and there are lots of fish that escape."
    "They sell us the president the same way they sell us our clothes and our cars. They sell us every thing from youth to religion the same time they sell us our wars. I want to know who the men in the shadows are. I want to hear somebody asking them why. They can be counted on to tell us who our enemies are but theyre never the ones to fight or to die." - Jackson Browne Lives In The Balance

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    You could still have international seaways where ship traffic could travel while ensuring the private property rights of others' sea ownership. I know I'd take pretty good care of my section of the ocean if it meant more profitable sea life would migrate there.
    And this wouldn't be an issue at all.

    Surface vessel traffic, no matter how large, has no real impact on fish stocks.

    The only conflict would be between fishing vessels and ships, but this is already well mitigated by centuries old "rules of the road" to avoid collisions and modern navigation equipment.
    Another mark of a tyrant is that he likes foreigners better than citizens, and lives with them and invites them to his table; for the one are enemies, but the Others enter into no rivalry with him. - Aristotle's Politics Book 5 Part 11

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    And this wouldn't be an issue at all.

    Surface vessel traffic, no matter how large, has no real impact on fish stocks.

    The only conflict would be between fishing vessels and ships, but this is already well mitigated by centuries old "rules of the road" to avoid collisions and modern navigation equipment.
    I was thinking about more of the "Get off my lawn" aspect. If I owned a section of ocean, I wouldn't want someone barging through unannounced and without payment regardless of their intention. It's my water. Doesn't matter if I use it to fish, use it for tidal generation, or sell access to it for travel. Hell, there could be lots of uses and you could make money in several different ways all at the same time. If you spill onto my water - I could sue. It just seems like there could be a new frontier of resource ownership with our GPS technology.
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by Anti Federalist View Post
    Taking count of a wild stock biomass is an inexact science, to put it in very mild terms.

    A more accurate way is to say it is a WAG, or "wild assed guess". To hear the people in the business, there is more cod than ever, and obviously enough to sustain a commecial fishery. One of the reason that there won't ever be "the last fish caught" scenario, is the fact the cost is too prohibitive to chase a diminishing stock. You reach a point of negative returns (a "broker" trip - where you go out broke and come back broker) before a stock is wiped out.

    I recall having a meeting once, back in the 80s, with the director of NMFS, Bill (?) Fox, who looked right across the table a group of us fishermen and flatly stated, "My job is to put half of you guys out of business".

    That was an indirect catalyst for the protest that ended up with a bunch of us getting roughed up.

    There is nothing to indicate to me that there is any hard science pointing to this decision, that it is much more heavily influenced by that same attitude.

    And this is nothing new, there has been, in my lifetime, a well coordinated attack on every "independent" lifestyle or way of living, by government.

    Fisherman, rancher, small farmer, indepenent trucker, small business owner...all are "disapproved" in the coming glorious future.

    These people are hard to put a thumb on, you see, and must be stamped out, controlled, throttled and regulated...until dead.

    Then theye will be coming for everybody else. This is already starting to happen, with "safety inspections" for private homes and apartments, "no refusal" blood draw roadblocks, "tax by mile" monitoring schemes and a host of others just like that.

    And that's what people that didn't give a $#@! what was happening to these people, do not understand.

    The precedent for total control and regulation without representation, was set by the tryannical decrees that have throttled the independent spirit in AmeriKa.
    Sounds like every industry the government has it's hand in. They start by destroying the ability of the small business owner to compete leaving only the large national government approved corporate monopolies that can. I suspect their day will come to since this is just another stepping stone on the long road leading to nationalization of private industries. (if they ever get that far).
    * See my visitor message area for caveats related to my posting history here.
    * Also, I have effectively retired from all social media including posting here and are basically opting out of anything to do with national politics or this country on federal or state level and rather focusing locally. I may stop by from time to time to discuss philosophy on a general level related to Libertarian schools of thought and application in the real world.

  11. #39
    Wonder if it has anything to do with this:


    Salt-Water Fish Extinction Seen By 2048


    Already, 29% of edible fish and seafood species have declined by 90% -- a drop that means the collapse of these fisheries. ... Worm and colleagues report their findings in the Nov. 3 issue of 'Science'.

  12. #40
    We are definitely going in the direction of the wealthy eating meat and fish, while those not well connected eat GMO cardboard. Feds are killing the cattle industry, seafood industry, fruit and veggies. Look at Michelle O's meals for the school kids... a slathering of boxed mashed potatoes and a Tyson pre-cooked chicken patty with a carton of milk. Do you think her kids eat that.. Do you think that beotch and its' adopted kids would ever touch that?



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    I'm dead set against this idea!

    All I see is a more intrusive government trying to manage it.

    Not even discussing the men and women who have spent decades learning to fish open waters effectively....
    You're dead set against property rights?

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by green73 View Post
    You're dead set against property rights?
    Nope, dead set against declaring the ocean divisible into parcels that would constitute taxable property.

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Nope, dead set against declaring the ocean divisible into parcels that would constitute taxable property.
    Well who the hell worth their spit isn't against property taxes?

  17. #44
    On day 2 I'm still all in AF. If there is an in to be had. Coupla weeks planning and a hell of a strategy could be formed between you Gunny, Coastie and myself.

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by idiom View Post
    Doesn't matter if the Cod are all dead.

    Better off putting some effort into intense research into what's gone wrong.
    Intense research?
    They know why.. Foreign flagged ships just outside the legal limit,(or undetected within it), not subject to any restrictions.

    It has been going on for decades. and it is known. I'm sure it is even in trade deals,, even if not written on paper.
    Last edited by pcosmar; 11-13-2014 at 09:21 PM.
    Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
    Ron Paul 2004

    Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
    It's all about Freedom

  19. #46
    Quote Originally Posted by invisible View Post
    Well, they had to do something to increase demand for contaminated seafood from the Gulf Of Mexico.

    The Gulf of Mexico will never be the same. There's an area the size of Rhode Island covered in oil that is completely dead to all of life. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-1...do-well-disast All one has to do is look at Valdez Alaska to know generations from now that areas of the Gulf of Mexico will still be covered in oil and dead. And the oil is moving to other areas of the Gulf: fishermen off the southwest coast of Florida below Tampa and even fishermen as far away as the Florida Keys have found BP oil in their catches. The Gulf Restoration Network is a small group of volunteers who give of their time and talents and have found over 2.5 million gallons of oil being spilled off Louisiana every single year: and they admit: they only cover a tiny portion of the tens of thousands of oil rigs out there. As they've said: 'if we find this much oil spilling off oil rigs every year in the small areas that we look, just imagine how many gallons of carcinogenic oil are spilling off those oil rigs in its entirety'. Bonny Schumaker is a retired physicist from NASA and she does flyovers of the Gulf and films videos of literally mile after mile after mile after mile of oil sheen sitting on top the Gulf.

    Sperm whales in the Gulf were shown to have higher toxins in their blubber than anywhere else on the planet:



    And, as you stated, what is being caught there is severely deformed -- shrimp with no eyes, fish having several tails... over 50,000 dolphins have died so far and thousands more in Barataria Bay are severely ill and dying slow, painful, deaths with lung disease in addition to other maladies that are consistent with the cancer-causing carcinogenic elements that are found within oil. I've watched videos year after year of mothers trying to prop up their dolphin calves for their first breath of air after birthing them, only to never see their still-born baby awaken. One mother stayed with her baby for over a week trying to push it up to breath, only to finally push it over to a small boat as if to ask the people in the boat to help her. It's heart wrenching what's going on down there. It really is.

    Sea monsters and devoured jobs are sinking shrimp harvesters four years after the BP blowout

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    On day 2 I'm still all in AF. If there is an in to be had. Coupla weeks planning and a hell of a strategy could be formed between you Gunny, Coastie and myself.
    You guys are like the baby boomers with a little extra zest. Bless ya. Good luck.

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by green73 View Post
    Well who the hell worth their spit isn't against property taxes?
    Nobody .



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Pericles View Post
    He has erected a multitude of new offices, and sent hither swarms of officers to harass our people, and eat out their substance.
    Yes

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Nope, dead set against declaring the ocean divisible into parcels that would constitute taxable property.
    Are you also against dividing land into parcels for private ownership because it ends up being taxed?
    "And now that the legislators and do-gooders have so futilely inflicted so many systems upon society, may they finally end where they should have begun: May they reject all systems, and try liberty; for liberty is an acknowledgment of faith in God and His works." - Bastiat

    "It is difficult to free fools from the chains they revere." - Voltaire

  25. #51
    Just wondering how overfished the Cod industry really is up there, in comparison to Real cod numbers?

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by CaptUSA View Post
    Are you also against dividing land into parcels for private ownership because it ends up being taxed?
    I'm against the taxation of land, I'm also against the separation of mineral rights from land possession, so I could only imagine the bureaucratic hell oceanic division would create.

    Government would grow her forces more than double trying to regulate and police private ocean space, look at the lawyers and court cases regarding land.

    Theoretically dividing any tangible item into sections for private ownership is logical but given the fluid nature of the ocean the whole endeavor sounds illogical to me.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by phill4paul View Post
    On day 2 I'm still all in AF. If there is an in to be had. Coupla weeks planning and a hell of a strategy could be formed between you Gunny, Coastie and myself.
    Same here. Because I'm self employed I can free up whatever schedule we want on a week's notice.

  28. #54
    Look up tragedy of the commons before posting such nonsense

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by 56ktarget View Post
    Look up tragedy of the commons before posting such nonsense
    Look it up yourself. Then take a good look at the way Obama obeyed his own selfish 'enlightened self interest' when he let BP off the hook for a pittance after their aquatic genocide in the Gulf of Mexico.
    Quote Originally Posted by Swordsmyth View Post
    We believe our lying eyes...

  30. #56
    It's not just cod. There was no shrimp season this year at all and they cut the elver limit way down. Shrimp isn't really that profitable, but elvers were the second most profitable fishery here after lobster.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by 69360 View Post
    It's not just cod. There was no shrimp season this year at all and they cut the elver limit way down. Shrimp isn't really that profitable, but elvers were the second most profitable fishery here after lobster.
    What right do some nebulous "they" have to just bankrupt families and put people out of business at the stroke of a pen?

    Regulation without Representation.

  33. #58
    Quote Originally Posted by charrob View Post
    The Gulf of Mexico will never be the same. There's an area the size of Rhode Island covered in oil that is completely dead to all of life. http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2014-1...do-well-disast All one has to do is look at Valdez Alaska to know generations from now that areas of the Gulf of Mexico will still be covered in oil and dead. And the oil is moving to other areas of the Gulf: fishermen off the southwest coast of Florida below Tampa and even fishermen as far away as the Florida Keys have found BP oil in their catches. The Gulf Restoration Network is a small group of volunteers who give of their time and talents and have found over 2.5 million gallons of oil being spilled off Louisiana every single year: and they admit: they only cover a tiny portion of the tens of thousands of oil rigs out there. As they've said: 'if we find this much oil spilling off oil rigs every year in the small areas that we look, just imagine how many gallons of carcinogenic oil are spilling off those oil rigs in its entirety'. Bonny Schumaker is a retired physicist from NASA and she does flyovers of the Gulf and films videos of literally mile after mile after mile after mile of oil sheen sitting on top the Gulf.

    Sperm whales in the Gulf were shown to have higher toxins in their blubber than anywhere else on the planet:



    And, as you stated, what is being caught there is severely deformed -- shrimp with no eyes, fish having several tails... over 50,000 dolphins have died so far and thousands more in Barataria Bay are severely ill and dying slow, painful, deaths with lung disease in addition to other maladies that are consistent with the cancer-causing carcinogenic elements that are found within oil. I've watched videos year after year of mothers trying to prop up their dolphin calves for their first breath of air after birthing them, only to never see their still-born baby awaken. One mother stayed with her baby for over a week trying to push it up to breath, only to finally push it over to a small boat as if to ask the people in the boat to help her. It's heart wrenching what's going on down there. It really is.

    Sea monsters and devoured jobs are sinking shrimp harvesters four years after the BP blowout
    Trust me.

    Not so.

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