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Thread: 4 States Have Banned Bail Bonding

  1. #1

    4 States Have Banned Bail Bonding



    Should It Cost Less to Get Out of Jail if You're Rich?

    10/15/2013


    Private Prisons


    By Jesse Lava, Campaign Director, Beyond Bars & Sarah Solon, Communications Strategist, ACLU at 1:34pm



    Eric Amparan likes the system the way it is now. As a bail bondsman, he's part of an industry that pulls in $2 billion in revenue every year. Eric lays out how he profits off of financial desperation in our latest video in the Prison Profiteers series:





    Here's how it typically works: If you're booked into jail, you can either sit in a cell for months waiting for your trial – losing your job and missing your childcare commitments in the process – or you can pay bail to the court. Bail functions like a promise; the court will return it to you when you show up for your court date.



    The median bail amount is $25,000. If you don't happen to have this amount sitting in your bank account, odds are you'll need to borrow it from a bail bondsman, like Eric Amparan. Here's the catch: Eric will keep 10% of this amount as his non-refundable fee, even if you're found innocent. So you pay thousands of dollars to get out of jail if you're poor or middle class, but you pay nothing if you're rich.



    Bail is not a fine. It is not supposed to be used as punishment.

    The traditional purpose of bail is simply to ensure that people will return for their court date. But the commercial bail industry's business model is to make it more expensive for people of lesser means to move through the criminal justice system.


    Most states have laws saying that the default should be that people are released from jail while waiting for their trial solely based on their promise to return to court – unless there's a really compelling reason to hold them. And these laws could work – studies show that most people can be safely released based on their promise to return without jeopardizing public safety or fleeing.



    But judges often ignore these laws, and instead make people pay bail – which feeds right into the bail profiteers' business model. When judges set higher bail amounts, bail bond companies pull in higher profits. The American Bail Coalition – a lobbying group that represents the bail bondsmen, powerful insurance companies and wealthy investors – is working hard to make sure these profits keep coming in. They spent $3.1 million dollars lobbying state lawmakers between 2002 and 2011 and drafted twelve bail bills that encourage judges to set high bail amounts and give the bail industry more leeway to profit off incarceration.


    Four states – Illinois, Kentucky Oregon and Wisconsin – have abolished the bail bonding industry. Other states should do the same.

    We shouldn't have two criminal justice systems one for the rich and one for the rest of us. The commercial bail industry needs to know we're watching.

    The bail industry is just one the many powerful entities getting rich off mass incarceration. Meet the other Prison Profiteers and take action to fight their abuses at prisonprofiteers.org.
    https://www.aclu.org/blog/prisoners-...-if-youre-rich

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  3. #2

    Liberty for Sale!


    This series of articles examines commonplace aspects of the American justice system that are actually unique in the world.


    AMERICAN EXCEPTION: Illegal Globally, Bail for Profit Remains in U.S.



    http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/29/us...nted=all&_r=1&

    By ADAM LIPTAK
    Published: January 29, 2008


    FORT LAUDERDALE, Fla. — Wayne Spath is a bail bondsman, which means he is an insurance salesman, a social worker, a lightly regulated law enforcement agent, a real estate appraiser — and a for-profit wing of the American justice system.
    American Exception






    What he does, which is posting bail for people accused of crimes in exchange for a fee, is all but unknown in the rest of the world. In England, Canada and other countries, agreeing to pay a defendant’s bond in exchange for money is a crime akin to witness tampering or bribing a juror — a form of obstruction of justice.
    Mr. Spath, who is burly, gregarious and intense, owns Brandy Bail Bonds, and he sees his clients in a pleasant and sterile office building just down the street from the courthouse here. But for the handcuffs on the sign out front, it could be a dentist’s office.
    “I’ve got to run, but I’ll never leave you in jail,” Mr. Spath said, greeting a frequent customer in his reception area one morning a couple of weeks ago. He turned to a second man and said, “Now, don’t you miss court on me.”
    Other countries almost universally reject and condemn Mr. Spath’s trade, in which defendants who are presumed innocent but cannot make bail on their own pay an outsider a nonrefundable fee for their freedom.
    “It’s a very American invention,” John Goldkamp, a professor of criminal justice at Temple University, said of the commercial bail bond system. “It’s really the only place in the criminal justice system where a liberty decision is governed by a profit-making businessman who will or will not take your business.”
    Although the system is remarkably effective at what it does, four states — Illinois, Kentucky, Oregon and Wisconsin — have abolished commercial bail bonds, relying instead on systems that require deposits to courts instead of payments to private businesses, or that simply trust defendants to return for trial.
    Most of the legal establishment, including the American Bar Association and the National District Attorneys Association, hates the bail bond business, saying it discriminates against poor and middle-class defendants, does nothing for public safety, and usurps decisions that ought to be made by the justice system.
    Here as in many other areas of the law, the United States goes it alone. American law is, by international standards, a series of innovations and exceptions. From the central role played by juries in civil cases to the election of judges to punitive damages to the disproportionate number of people in prison, the United States has charted a distinctive and idiosyncratic legal path.
    Bail is meant to make sure defendants show up for trial. It has ancient roots in English common law, which relied on sworn promises and on pledges of land or property from the defendants or their relatives to make sure they did not flee.
    America’s open frontier and entrepreneurial spirit injected an innovation into the process: by the early 1800s, private businesses were allowed to post bail in exchange for payments from the defendants and the promise that they would hunt down the defendants and return them if they failed to appear.
    Commercial bail bond companies dominate the pretrial release systems of only two nations, the United States and the Philippines.
    The flaw in the system most often cited by critics is that defendants who have not been convicted of a crime and who turn up for every court appearance are nonetheless required to pay a nonrefundable fee to a private business, assuming they do not want to remain in jail.
    “Life is not fair, and I probably would feel the same way if I were a defendant,” said Bill Kreins, a spokesman for the Professional Bail Agents of the United States, a trade group. “But the system is the best in world.”
    The system costs taxpayers nothing, Mr. Kreins said, and it is exceptionally effective at ensuring that defendants appear for court.
    Mr. Spath’s experience confirms that.
    If Mr. Spath considers a potential client a good risk, he will post bail in exchange for a nonrefundable 10 percent fee. In a 35-month period ending in November, his records show, Mr. Spath posted about $37 million in bonds — 7,934 of them. That would suggest revenues of about $1.3 million a year, given his fee.
    Mr. Spath, who is 62, has seven bail agents working for him, including his daughters Tia and Mia. “It probably costs me 50 grand a month to run this business,” he said.
    Mr. Spath hounds his clients relentlessly to make sure they appear for court. If they do not, he must pay the court the full amount unless he can find them and bring them back in short order.
    Only 434 of his clients failed to appear for a court date over that period, and Mr. Spath straightened out 338 of those cases within the 60 days allowed by Florida law. In the end, he had to pay up only 76 times.
    That is a failure rate of less than 1 percent.
    But he had just taken a $100,000 hit. “Everything I worked for this year, I lost because of that one guy,” he said. “If I write a bad bond, it takes me 17 to make it right.”
    Mr. Spath had thought the defendant, accused of drug trafficking, was a good bet because he had been cooperating with the government. The defendant is in Brazil now, but Mr. Spath is very good at finding people, and he is not giving up. He is working travel records, phone companies and a former girlfriend, and he is getting closer.
    He sometimes requires collateral in addition to his fee, and has accepted rugs, an airplane and a winning Rhode Island lottery ticket. But mostly he is interested in houses.
    “In this business, you have to understand real estate,” Mr. Spath said. When the real estate market goes south, he said, bail bondsmen get hurt.
    According to the Justice Department and academic studies, the clients of commercial bail bond agencies are more likely to appear for court in the first place and more likely to be captured if they flee than those released under other forms of supervision.
    That may be because bail bond companies have financial incentives and choose their clients carefully. They also have more power. In many states, bond enforcement agents, sometimes called bounty hunters, may break into homes of defendants without a warrant, temporarily imprison them and move them across state lines without entering into the extradition process.
    Still, critics say, efficiency and business considerations should not trump the evenhanded application of justice.
    The experiences in states that have abolished commercial bail bonds, prosecutors say, have been mixed.
    “The bail bond system is rife with corruption,” said Joshua Marquis, the district attorney in Clatsop County, Ore. Since bond companies do not compete on price, they have every incentive to collude with lawyers, the police, jail officials and even judges to make sure that bail is high and that attractive clients are funneled to them.
    Mr. Kreins, the industry spokesman, acknowledged scandals in Illinois, where “basically all the agents were in collusion with the judges,” and in Louisiana, where sheriffs were also in the mix.
    “We have acted responsibly every time an incident has occurred to seek stronger legislation,” Mr. Kreins said. Mr. Marquis, the Oregon prosecutor, said doing away with commercial bonds had affected the justice system in a negative way as well. “The fact of the matter is,” he said, “that in states like Oregon the failure-to-appear rate has skyrocketed.” Oregon uses a combination of court deposits, promises to appear and restrictions on where defendants can live and work.
    The rest of the world considers the American system a warning of how not to set up a pretrial release system, F. E. Devine wrote in “Commercial Bail Bonding,” a 1991 book that remains the only comprehensive international survey of the subject.
    He said that courts in Australia, India and South Africa had disciplined lawyers for professional misconduct for setting up commercial bail arrangements.
    Other countries use a mix of methods to ensure that defendants appear for trial.
    Some simply keep defendants in jail until trial. Others ask defendants to promise to turn up for trial. Some make failure to appear a separate crime. Some impose strict conditions on release, like reporting to the police frequently. Some make defendants liable for a given sum should they fail to appear but do not collect it up front. Others require a deposit in cash from the defendant, family members or friends, which is returned when the defendant appears.
    But injecting money into the equation, even without the bond company’s fee, is the exception. “Even purged of commercialism, most countries avoid a bail system based chiefly on financial security deposits,” Mr. Devine wrote.
    In the United States, the use of commercial bail bonds is rising, and they became the most popular form of pretrial release in 1998. More than 40 percent of felony defendants released before trial paid a bail bond company in 2004, up from 24 percent a decade earlier, according to the Justice Department.
    Forty percent of people released on bail are eventually acquitted or have the charges against them dropped. Quite a few of them paid a substantial and nonrefundable fee to remain free in the meantime.
    Kate Santana, a 20-year-old waitress, had spent eight days in jail when she found her way to Mr. Spath.
    “Me and my husband got into a fight,” Ms. Santana explained, “and the cops were called and I was arrested because there was a bite mark on his shoulder.”
    Mr. Spath took her $200 and posted her $2,000 bail. “I checked her criminal history out,” he said. “I found out she was a mother and really she shouldn’t be in jail.”
    But when a friend of a man accused of identity theft and perjury turned up seeking a $16,000 bond, Mr. Spath took a different attitude. “You bet your fanny I’m going to take collateral,” he said. “I’ll take his firstborn.”
    Mr. Spath is not much concerned with how the rest of the world views commercial bail bonds, but he was worked up about recent talk of a greater government role in pretrial release here in Broward County.
    “Here’s what everybody forgets,” he said. “The taxpayers have to pay for these programs. Why should they pay for them? Why should they? When we can provide the same service for free. I’d rather see the money spent in parks, mental health issues, the homeless. Let the private sector do it. We do it better.”
    Last edited by presence; 11-07-2014 at 09:40 AM.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  4. #3
    Sniping at the tentacles of the "Just-Us" department might feel good but in the end nothing is going to change...

    The head of this monster must be severed!

  5. #4
    http://www.justicepolicy.org/news/4389
    Release: The Bail Bond Industry is For Profit, But Not For Good

    Published: September 18, 2012
    FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
    Tuesday, September 18, 2012
    Contacts: Zerline Hughes – 202.558.7974 x308 or 617.596.6958 zhughes@justicepolicy.org
    Adwoa Masozi – 202.558.7974 x306 / amasozi@justicepolicy.org
    The Bail Bond Industry is For Profit, but Not For Good:
    New report supports elimination of for-profit bail bonding as part of justice system

    WASHINGTON, DC – As early as 1912 – one hundred years ago – critics were concerned that poor people remained in jail while awaiting trial solely because of their inability to pay even small bail amounts, that bail bondsmen had become too prominent in the administration of justice and that corruption plagued the industry. Amazingly, these issues still apply to the for-profit bail bond system in today, the Justice Policy Institute shows in its new report, For Better or For Profit: How the Bail Bonding Industry Stands in the Way of Fair and Effective Pre-Trial Justice.

    There are approximately 15,000 bail bond agents working in the United States, writing bonds for about $14 billion annually. Bail bond companies take billions from low-income people, with no return on investment in terms of public safety and added costs to communities, according to JPI’s findings. Backed by multibillion dollar insurance giants, the for-profit bail bonding industry maintains its hold in the pretrial system through political influence.

    “For-profit bail bonding harms individuals, families and the integrity of our pretrial justice system,” said Spike Bradford author of For Better or For Profit and senior research associate for JPI. "The industry's political influence also perpetuates the use of money bail instead of other alternatives that allow people deemed low risk of re-offending or failing to appear in court to remain free until their trial. The practice of for-profit bail bonding should be eliminated.”

    While most places in the U.S. still use money as a primary release mechanism, and allow for-profit companies to post bond for people, some states and communities are moving away from money bail and bail bonding towards the use of Pretrial Service (PTS) agencies and risk assessments.“Bail bondsmen shouldn’t be mistaken for criminal justice professionals,” said Tracy Velázquez, JPI Executive Director.

    “They’re more like bankers, trying to decide whether to give you a mortgage. While banks try to determine your risk of not being able to make your house payment, bail bondsmen only look at the likelihood of your not showing up for your court date, which is the only time their money is at risk. And given how the system is set up to minimize the instances when bail bondsmen must pay forfeitures – and that they’ll come after the person who paid for the bond for the full bail amount anyway – this risk is low indeed.”

    PTS agencies, on the other hand, make sure someone appears at court, but they also want to ensure that people released pretrial don’t reoffend while in the community. They have tools – validated risk assessments – that not only can help them decide whether someone should be held in jail pretrial, but under what conditions of supervision a person might be released. For example, someone arrested for drunk driving might need to take random breathalyzer tests, or be required to wear a GPS bracelet so law enforcement can monitor their whereabouts. Pretrial service agencies can also help connect people with services they need to help them be successful in the community both until their trial and afterwards, including treatment, housing, etc. While PTS agencies are a government expense, this is more than offset by reduced court costs, fewer jail beds, improved public safety and more people able to remain in the community meeting their obligations to their employers and families.

    Some other key points in the report include the following:

    • Bail amounts are increasing. Court officials who believe that the more money someone pays the more likely they are to show up in court have been increasing bail amounts to take into account that people who use bondsmen must only come up with a percentage – often ten percent – of the total bail amount in cash to secure their release. In a vicious cycle, this has led to some bail bondsmen lowering their fee or allowing people to pay on installments, which in turn leads judges to set even higher bails, to the point that most people can no longer pay their own bail. This in turn, leads to more people in jail because they cannot make bail. Between 1992 and 2006 the average bail amount more than doubled from $25,400 to $55,500, far outpacing inflation for that period.
    • Political influence keeps bail bondsmen in business. Today, the industry does a conservative estimate of $2 billion in revenue annually and is supported by around 30 insurance companies who underwrite them, who in turn are worth even more. The for-profit bail industry engages in multimillion dollar lobbying efforts to attack and defund pretrial services and increase their profitability by reducing regulation and financial risk. In California alone, the bail industry has spent almost a half million dollars on lobbying since 2000. In addition to lobbying, bail agents, businesses and associations have contributed over $3.1 million to state-level political candidates from 2002 to 2011, with over 4 in 5 dollars spent in ten states.
    • The American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) has been a driver of harmful bail legislation since 1994. Since the formation of The American Bail Coalition (ABC) and its association with ALEC, the for-profit bail industry has flourished while non-financial release has declined and bail amounts have risen. In the decade following their partnership, the percentage of arrested felons who were released without financial conditions fell from 41 to 25, while those release on a surety bond—that is, a bail bond—increased from 25 to 42 percent. ABC has joined forces with ALEC to draft model bills which reduce regulation and oversight of bail agents, promote higher bail amounts in bail schedules, increase the court’s burden in pursuing bond forfeitures and restrict the funding of PTS agencies and the populations eligible to participate in their programs.
    • By its very nature, for-profit bail is ripe for corruption and abuse. That for-profit bail bonding introduces money and profit into the pretrial process and gives bail agents complete control of an accused person’s liberty has led to numerous instances of abuse and corruption in the industry. Cases abound of bondsmen bribing jailers and inmates for increased accessed to potential clients, employing brutal and illegal methods to extort money and information and even using their extralegal powers to coerce people into sexual acts. The industry laments the negative image these abuses create, but it is the system itself which enables such behavior.
    • Alternatives to for-profit bail bonding exist and are effective. Effective pretrial release programs employ rigorous, validated risk assessments, offer pretrial release recommendations and supervise and monitor released persons within a continuum of options. Successful models of pretrial services can be found in Multnomah County, Oregon, Kentucky and the Federal System.

    For Better or For Profit makes the following recommendations for improving pretrial justice:

    • End for-profit bail bonding. Every jurisdiction should follow the lead of the four states where for-profit bail bonding is banned and institute robust, risk-based pretrial programs. Short of legislative banning, jurisdictions should implement non-financial release guidelines and procedures as well as work to reshape outdated pretrial attitudes and beliefs.
    • Promote and further institutionalize pretrial services. Pretrial services are the most effective means of managing the pretrial assessment and possible release of people awaiting a criminal trial. They should be incorporated in justice systems where they are absent and supported where they currently exist. These agencies require political commitment to maintain adequate funding and to support legislation solidifying PTS as a jurisdiction’s primary method of pretrial decision-making.
    • Require greater transparency within the industry. Until such a time that for-profit bail bonding can be eliminated from our nation’s pretrial systems, the industry must be held more accountable and to a greater standard of transparency.

    “People may think that the for-profit bail bond industry is good for people with little income, because it means they won’t have to spend days or weeks in jail while awaiting trial,” Bradford.“But the fact is, the industry is driving up bail amounts so that no one can afford to pay their own bail, while keeping a substantial fee that no one gets back – even if found innocent. Given there are fairer and more effective pretrial justice options, the continuance of for-profit bail is not in society’s best interest.”

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  6. #5
    http://www.napsa.org/publications/napsafandp1.pdf

    The Truth About Bail Bonding in the US

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  7. #6
    http://www.npr.org/2010/01/21/122725...d-With-Inmates

    Bail Burden Keeps U.S. Jails Stuffed With Inmates

    January 21, 2010 2:00 PM ET

    Laura Sullivan








    Listen to the Story


    Across the street from the county jail in Lubbock, Texas, is a row of one-story offices housing Lubbock's bond companies. There are about a dozen bail bond companies in this city of 250,000.

    Katie Hayes for NPR

    Leslie Chew spent his childhood working long days next to his father on the oil rigs of southern Texas. No school meant he never learned to read or write. Now in his early 40s, he's a handyman, often finding a place to sleep in the back of his old station wagon.
    America's Overstuffed Jails


    Chart: Jails Stuffed To Capacity In Many U.S. Counties



    But he got by — until one night in December 2008 when the station wagon got cold, and he changed the course of his life.
    "Well, I stole some blankets to try to stay warm," he says quietly. "I walked in and got them and turned around and walked right back out of the store. [The security guard] said, 'Excuse me, sir, come here. Are you planning to pay for these?' I said, 'No, sir. I don't have no money.' That's when he arrested me right then."
    When I first spoke to Chew last summer, he'd been inside the Lubbock County jail since the night he was arrested: 185 days, more than six months.
    Chew is like one of more than a half-million inmates sitting in America's jails — not because they're dangerous or a threat to society or because a judge thinks they will run. It's not even because they are guilty; they haven't been tried yet.
    More Stories In This Series

    PART 2: Inmates Who Can't Make Bail Face Stark Options Jan. 22, 2010

    PART 3: Bondsman Lobby Targets Pretrial Release Programs Jan. 22, 2010






    They are here because they can't make bail
    — sometimes as little as $50.
    Some will wait behind bars for as long as a year before their cases make it to court.
    And it will cost taxpayers $9 billion this year to house them.





    On this day that I met him, Chew's bail is $3,500. He would need to leave that much as a cash deposit with the court to leave jail. Or he could pay a bail bondsman a $350 nonrefundable fee to do it for him. If he had either amount, he could stand up and walk out the door right now. But he doesn't.
    The money, says Chew, "is like a million dollars to me."
    When Chew headed down the grocery aisle and put four $30 blankets under his arm, he set in motion a process almost unique to the United States that rewards the wealthy and punishes the poor. And, NPR has found, it exists almost solely to protect the interests of a powerful bail bonding industry.
    i
    Leslie Chew, in Lubbock County Jail for theft, said his $3,500 bail was "like a million dollars to me."

    Laura Sullivan/NPR

    The result is that people with money get out. They go back to their jobs and their families, pay their bills and fight their cases. And according to the Justice Department and national studies, those with money face far fewer consequences for their crimes.
    People without money stay in jail and are left to take whatever offer prosecutors feel like giving them.
    'Too Much Money'
    On this day, Chew is still waiting for the offer. He is ready to plead guilty and accept his punishment, but court cases take time, and prosecutors have come to visit him only once.
    The price tag to house, clothe and feed Chew so far for these past six months: $7,068.
    "That's a lot of money," Chew says, sitting at a metal table in the middle of the jail's white concrete day room. "That's really too much money."
    I watch the calluses on his hands start to leave marks on the painted steel. He says he's worried that his customers, who hire him to fix and move things, are turning to someone else. And he's worried about his white 1987 Saturn station wagon.
    "I was going to get a regular car," Chew explains, "but I figured a station wagon would be better, because if I ever get in a bind, I can lay down the back seats and have a place to sleep."
    Chew's feet begin to tap under the table.
    "If I lose that car, that's it. I don't know what I'd do," he said. "Cuz that's how I get around."
    Chew doesn't know it now, as he waits at this table for lunch, but he's going to lose his customers. And he's going to lose his car. And across this barren room of orange jumpsuits, most of Chew's fellow inmates aren't going to fare much better.
    A Life Swayed By $150
    Doug Currington is sitting on his bunk absent-mindedly running his fingers through a paperback book. Like Chew, Currington tried to steal something: a television from Walmart at 2 a.m. while high on methamphetamine. Currington has been here 75 days so far, at a cost to taxpayers of $2,850. Standing between him and the door: $150.

    Doug Currington landed in the Lubbock County Jail for trying to steal a television. All that stands between him and the door: $150 bail.

    Laura Sullivan/NPR

    He's already lost his apartment and his job. His truck has been repossessed, and he has no money to pay child support. And perhaps even more important in terms of getting punished, he doesn't have the opportunity to show the court he's sorry.
    "If I can get out and hire an attorney, I can go to rehab," he says. "I can get my job back. And when I go to court, my lawyer has something to work with."
    "The lawyer can say, 'This guy has been clean. He's voluntarily gone to rehab. He hasn't committed another crime. He's had the same job. He's paying child support,' " Currington says. "They're not going to want to throw you back in jail."
    Currington's gut feeling about his situation is backed up by statistics from the Justice Department and industry groups. Defendants who make bail do less time. Several defense lawyers in Lubbock said that in their experience, if Currington could get out, go to rehab and pay restitution, he would very likely get probation. Prosecutors are offering him five years in prison.
    "It's stressful," Currington says, shaking his head. "It's stressful knowing your life can be swayed over $150. It's a matter of being free in two hours if I had $150 to being free in three or four years when I make parole on a 10-year sentence."
    'I'm Praying ... Not Too Much Longer'
    All across this jail, everyone seems to have a similar story: a daunting offer from prosecutors, a bail so small that most people would just need to get to the ATM.
    And in here, most inmates seem to think they're just hours away from someone — a friend, a relative, maybe a boss — coming to bail them out.
    "Right now my family's working on it to come up with the bond to get me out," says 34-year-old barber Raymond Howard. "So I'm praying [it won't be] too much longer. Not too much longer."
    i
    At the intake area of the Lubbock County Jail, inmates can place a call to family, friends or one of the 12 bail bonding companies in town.

    Katie Hayes for NPR

    Howard needs $500. He has been here more than four months, after he forged a check against a company. Like Currington and Chew, Howard has no history of violence and has always shown up for court. That's why he was granted bail.
    Up to this day, the city of Lubbock has already spent $5,054 to house him. Lawyers say Howard would most likely get time served and probation if he was on the outside. But in jail, he has little bargaining power and nothing to show for himself. Prosecutors are offering Howard a sentence so long, he catches his breath as he said it.
    "They started with seven," he says, pausing. "Seven years."
    With three young boys at home, he says, it's almost more than he can bear.
    "I love my boys to death," Howard says. "It's pretty much all I have."
    But despite all his hoping, Howard's family isn't coming with the $500. In fact, he isn't going to see his three young boys for a very long time.
    Released On Their Own Recognizance
    Walking through the jail with Lubbock's then-Sheriff David Gutierrez last summer, it was easy to see the impact of housing all these men. (Not long after, Gutierrez was promoted to the Texas Board of Pardons and Paroles.)
    "We're out of room. Completely out of room," Gutierrez says.
    In the maze of hallways, there are corridors where there used to be windows and cells where there used to be closets.
    "It really needs to be closed," Gutierrez says. "I think you'll see it's not quite adequate. When you try to bring in today's technology and standards into a 1931 building, it's really pretty challenging."
    It wasn't always like this. Twenty years ago nationally and in Lubbock, most defendants were released on their own recognizance. In other words, they were trusted to show up again. Now most defendants are given bail — and most have to pay a bail bondsman to afford it.
    Considering that the vast majority of nonviolent offenders released on their own recognizance have historically shown up for their trials, releasing more inmates on their own recognizance seems like an easy solution for Lubbock. But that is not the solution Lubbock has chosen.
    County officials have instead decided to build a brand new megajail, costing nearly $110 million. And Lubbock is not alone. At least 10 counties every year consider building new jails to ease a near-epidemic of jail overcrowding nationwide, according to industry experts.
    Pretrial Release: An Elusive Option
    There is one other solution. It's a county-funded program called pretrial release. Nonviolent inmates are released under supervision, often with ankle bracelets, drug testing or counseling. It costs only a couple dollars a day, compared with the national average of $60 a day in jail.
    Bail Bonds and State Laws

    The regulation of bail bond agents varies widely across the country. Many states require bondsmen to be licensed. Generally, bond agents must undergo eight to 16 hours of training, submit to fingerprinting and a background check and be a resident of the state to receive a license. However, some states do not require bondsmen to be licensed. In Wyoming, for example, agents using their own capital are not required to be licensed.
    Some states ban commercial bail bondsmen outright and have the state's court act as the bail bond business. But in others, the American Legislative Exchange Council, an organization backed in part by the bail bond lobby, has worked to pass the Citizen's Right To Know Act, a law that requires reformatting and increased reporting of pretrial release information and encourages the use of commercial bail bondsmen.
    Citizen's Right To Know Act:
    Enacted: Florida (2009), Texas (1995)
    Enrolled (in legislature): Iowa (2009), North Carolina (2009), Tennessee (2009)
    Failed: Virginia (2009)
    States that ban commercial bail bondsmen:
    Illinois, Kentucky, Oregon, Wisconsin
    Sources: NPR research; American Legislative Exchange Council; American Bail Coalition; Pretrial Justice Institute; baillaws.com; state of Wyoming; state of Arkansas; state of Washington
    — Rose Raymond



    Kelly Rowe, chief deputy of the Lubbock jail, says that pretrial release is an important option. In Lubbock, it operates out of the jail's intake area, where inmates are processed into the jail, and he takes me down there.
    Two dozen inmates are scattered about near a line of pay phones. On the wall is a large sign with the number of every bail bond company in town in bold letters. There's no phone number for the pretrial release office.
    When Rowe walks over to the desk where the program is supposed to operate, it's empty. There are no papers, pens or signs of work.
    Rowe leaves to inquire why the area is empty and returns a few minutes later. He says no one has staffed the desk for four or five months.
    When asked where they went, Rowe says: "It's like anything else we do; we have a thousand functions we oversee and watch and are doing, and it stalled. And I think the people responsible for that staff reassigned them or said, 'Here, we want you doing this other job duty.' "
    That's not exactly how Lubbock's pretrial officials describe what happened.
    Blocked By Powerful Bail Bonds Lobby
    A block away from the jail, Steve Henderson runs Lubbock's parole and pretrial release program from a small, dark office. He says his shoestring budget can't afford an officer at the jail. He can't even afford to accept collect calls from inmates looking for pretrial help.
    "Follow the money," Henderson says. "Usually whenever you've got questions of money, you follow the money and they'll tell you the reasons why some things operate."
    He says the bail bondsmen don't want to see his program receive anything more than limited funding. The bondsmen "make money and they contribute their influence," Henderson says. "I would do more if we had the funding to do more."
    It's not that Lubbock's bondsmen want Henderson's clients. They don't. Henderson's clients can't afford a bondsman's fees.
    But Henderson says the bondsmen lobby to keep his program as small and unproductive as possible, so that no paying customers slip though — even if that means thousands of inmates like Raymond Howard and Leslie Chew wait in jail at taxpayer expense, because they never find the money to become paying customers.
    "The bonding companies make a living," Henderson says. "That's just the nature of Texas and Lubbock."
    But it's not just Texas and Lubbock. Industry experts and a review of national lobbying efforts by NPR show that pretrial release programs across the country are increasingly locked in a losing battle with bonding companies trying to either limit their programs or shut them down entirely.
    As Henderson walks back downstairs, he stops and reads the sign above the door in the lobby. It says: Protecting our community by changing lives.
    "Jail doesn't do anybody any good," he says. "The only thing that jail is good for is to keep the dangerous people in the community away from the people who don't pose a risk."
    But that is not who is in the nation's jails. According to the Justice Department, two-thirds of the people in the nation's jails are petty, nonviolent offenders who are there for only one reason: They can't afford their bail.
    The Ins And Outs of Making Bail
    Across the street from the Lubbock jail is a row of one-story offices with painted ads: Student discounts! Lubbock's #1 bonds!
    Inside one of them, Lubbock Bail Bond, three young women work the phones and greet customers. This is one of the biggest bonding shops in town.
    Here's how it works: You're arrested. A judge gives you $5,000 bail. But you don't have $5,000, so you pay Lubbock Bail Bond a nonrefundable fee — at least 10 percent of your bail — and you get out of jail.
    "We put up the total amount; they pay us a premium. As long as they show up for court, we make money," says office manager Ken Herzog.
    There are about a dozen bail bond companies in Lubbock, serving a rather small population of 250,000. Herzog says it's a cutthroat business that leaves no room for even a modest pretrial release program. As an example, he describes a time he was working to make bond for an inmate. A clerk at the courthouse told him that the inmate had been interviewed by pretrial release program workers who were working to get him out of jail.
    "I said, 'Oh no, they ain't,' " Herzog says he told the clerk. "So I went to the judge that signed the motion for pretrial and told her what was up. They had no business even talking to this person. They pulled their bond, and I got the person out of jail."
    I ask him if he is talking about Henderson from Lubbock's pretrial release office. "If he gets in my business, I told him, 'I do this for a living,' " Herzog says. "I said, 'You don't do that. We set this thing up.' I said 'I'll work with you any way I can, but you're not going to get in my business.' Well, he backed off."
    It's unlikely Henderson had much choice. Henderson works for county officials. And county officials are elected.
    "We take care of the ones who take care of us," Herzog says. "We don't want to pay anybody off, per se. We just want to support the people who are trying to help our business."
    i
    Ken Herzog, manager of Trammel's Lubbock Bail Bond for over 25 years, sees an average of six people a day who need to be bonded out of jail. His bonding company currently has between 2,500 and 3,000 active accounts.

    Katie Hayes for NPR

    According to Lubbock campaign records, bondsmen make frequent donations to elected officials. Indigent jail inmates do not.
    Little Risk, Big Reward For Bondsmen
    The disparity has served the bondsmen well over the years. Bondsmen's main responsibility is to bring defendants back to court if they fail to show up. But it turns out that many bondsmen aren't doing this job.
    Statistically, most bail jumpers are not caught by bondsmen or their bounty hunters. They're caught by sheriff's deputies, according to Beni Hemmeline from Lubbock's district attorney's office.
    "More often than not, the defendants are rearrested on a warrant that's issued after they fail to appear," Hemmeline said.
    Asked if the bondsmen are fulfilling their end of the deal, Hemmeline says, "Well, it may be that [the bondsmen] can't find them. They can't camp at the door 24 hours a day. They do the best that they can, I think."
    If a defendant does run, the bondsman is also supposed to pay the county the full cost of the bond as a sort of punishment for not keeping an eye on the client.
    But that doesn't happen, either, Hemmeline says.
    Hemmeline says Lubbock usually settles for a far lower amount than the full bond. In fact, according to the county treasurer in Lubbock, bondsmen usually only pay 5 percent of the bond when a client runs.
    Consider that math for a minute. The bondsmen charge clients at least 10 percent. But if the client runs, they only have to pay the county 5 percent. Meaning if they make no effort whatsoever, they still profit.
    Hemmeline says asking for more might put the bondsmen out of business.
    "Bond companies serve an important purpose," she says.
    NPR found bondsmen getting similar breaks in other states. In California, bondsmen owe counties $150 million that they should have had to pay when their clients failed to show up for court. In New Jersey, bondsmen owe $250,000 over the past four years. In Erie, Pa., officials stopped collecting money for a time because it was too much of a hassle to get the bonding companies to pay up.
    Few Are Aware Of Other Options
    It is possible to skip the commercial bail bonding business entirely by just paying cash. Show up for court and you get your cash back. But it turns out that this is not as easy as it sounds. It takes hours longer to post a cash bail. And many people, like Sandy Ramirez, don't even know that it's an option.
    Ramirez came to Lubbock Bail Bond for her 18-year-old son, who was arrested after getting into a scuffle with his friends. They were charged with public mischief. Her son was given $750 bail.
    She says neither the district attorney's office, the judge nor the court clerk told her she could leave cash with the court as a deposit and get it back when the case was over.
    "I never knew that," Ramirez says. "That's awful not to know that."
    Lubbock Bail Bond tacked on some additional fees for, among other things, paying on a payment plan. In the end, she owes the company $260 — more than half the cost of the bond. Two weeks after the scuffle, prosecutors dropped all the charges against the teens. But two months later, she's still paying the bail bondsman.
    Across the street at the jail, Deputy Jerry Dossey is manning the window where people come to make bail. He says only two or three people a month put up their own cash. More than 60 people a day pay through a bail bondsman.
    "Sometimes, it's hard to scrape up the cash money when you've got a family to feed and everything else," Dossey says.
    One reason could be that judges aren't setting bail at what you can afford to pay. They're setting bail 10 times higher than what many people can afford to pay a bail bondsman. If a judge thinks $1,000 is a good amount to bring you back to court, then bail is set at $10,000.
    i
    Officer Sylvia Urrutia interviews Dominica Esparza for Lubbock's pretrial release program. Esparza, 19, was arrested earlier this month and has to meet a $75 bond to get out of jail.

    Katie Hayes for NPR

    A New Jail
    About 20 minutes out of town, Lubbock's new jail rises from the flat brown landscape as if from nowhere. On a tour, Sheriff Gutierrez says the main corridor is almost three football fields long.
    "This whole area here," Gutierrez says, pointing to just one room still under construction, "is larger than our old jail that holds 600 inmates."
    This jail will hold 1,512 inmates.
    Gutierrez says he agrees there should be options for people who can't afford bail other than housing them at taxpayer expense.
    "The last thing I want to do is continue to keep building beds," he says, standing inside one of the cells. "I think there should be some opportunities to release them, put them back into society, allow them to go to classes and go back to work and report for trial when the trial date comes."
    But as he's about to walk out of the cell, Gutierrez, who has been elected in three landslide victories over the past 11 years, pauses. He knows the risk for any politician to suggest such an alternative — even if it means taxpayers save money, even if it means victims will get restitution, even if it means the only reason he can fill this new jail is because the people filling it are poor.
    "I don't want you to think I'm soft on crime. I'm not soft on crime," Gutierrez says.
    And the result of that for defendants can be devastating.
    Epilogue
    Six months later and two hours north of Lubbock, the barbed wired of Formby State Prison rises from the cotton fields. In an empty visiting room, Raymond Howard, the inmate from the Lubbock jail with three young boys and a $500 bail, is sitting next to the Texas state prison's Coke machine.
    "Here I am," Howard says with resignation.
    Howard's family couldn't come up with the $500 he needed to make bail for forging the check. Without his barber income, his wife and three sons were barely making it on their own. He took the best offer he could get -– a three-year sentence in state prison.
    If he had made bail, defense attorneys say he would most likely have gotten probation. But inside, he had nothing to show prosecutors he would do better, nothing to show them he could be trusted with a chance.
    "It was something that I did," Howard says. "It was my mistake; it was my fault. But I didn't have the opportunity to show them. I apologize for what I've done. But I didn't have that chance. And this is where you wind up."
    It's a place too remote for his wife and three sons to afford to visit.
    Leslie Chew didn't walk out of the Lubbock jail until eight months after he arrived, costing taxpayers $9,120. Prosecutors eventually gave him time served for his blanket theft. But there was a condition: He had to plead guilty to felony theft.
    When he left, Chew found out his station wagon had been repossessed. Without a place to sleep, he wound up at a homeless shelter. A few months ago, he almost got a job as a maintenance man, but when the owners saw a felony conviction on his record, they pulled the offer.
    In October, Chew walked back into the Lubbock jail and asked the night officer if he could have his old job back, cleaning the jail's floors. But those jobs are reserved for the half-million people in this country who can't make bail.
    Nobody has seen Leslie Chew since.




    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  8. #7
    The commercial bail bond system in 9 GIFs

    by The Fault Lines Digital Team

    Bail bond companies in the U.S. earn over $2 billion dollars every year. In the last few years the commercial bail bond system has come under question by media organizations, criminal justice advocacy groups, and public officials.
    In Fault Lines' episode “Chasing Bail,” the Fault Lines team examines America's profitable bail bond industry, and investigates how money determines who goes free and who stays behind bars while awaiting trial.
    http://america.aljazeera.com/watch/s...min15gifs.html

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  9. #8
    http://www.bountyhunteredu.org/kentucky/
    The Legal Precedents Outlawing Bounty Hunter and Bail Bondsman Jobs in Kentucky

    In 1976, Kentucky became the first of the four U.S, states that ban commercial bail bonds and bounty hunting. The law was passed because of the belief that commercial bail bond systems discriminate against the poor by punishes most those who are least able to pay.

    Kentucky Statute 431.510

    This 1976 statute totally abolished bail bonding for profit. Individuals interested in pursuing careers as bail bond agents or bounty hunters cannot do so in the state of Kentucky. Licensed bounty hunters who are tracking fugitives from another state cannot arrest them in Kentucky without taking a chance they’ll be arrested themselves. A bounty hunter or bondsman from another state CAN go before a Kentucky judge to request a fugitive’s arrest warrant. If the judge is convinced that an arrest is justified, a warrant will be issued; however, the arrest can only be carried out by a Kentucky peace officer, not by the out-of-state bounty hunter or bondsman. The fugitive is then delivered to the court that issued the bail or remanded into the bounty hunter’s custody for transportation to the original jail.
    Alternative to a Commercial Bail Bonds System in Kentucky

    In place of a for-profit bail system, the Kentucky General Assembly created the Pretrial Services Agency in 1976 as a division of the Administrative Office of the Courts. The Pretrial Services Agency operates under the assumption that persons accused of a crime are innocent until proven guilty and deserve a reasonable opportunity to not be kept in jail until tried depending on the risk to public safety and the likelihood that the accused will appear in court as scheduled.
    Pretrial officers interview every defendant within 12 hours of the arrest. These officers serve all 120 Kentucky counties and are available for service 24 hours a day, seven days a week. Since the division was established, pretrial officers have interviewed over 2.7 million defendants. In addition to a detailed personal interview, the officers conduct a criminal background check and a risk assessment before making a pre-trial release recommendation to the court. The judge then elects one of these options:

    • Release the defendant on his/her own recognizance
    • Set a suitable bail amount
    • Keep the accused in custody

    If a bail is set, the defendant can be released by paying the court 10 percent of the bail amount in cash or by property bond. Unlike bail-for-profit systems, the bail amount is returned to the accused when he/she makes good on the promise to appear in court as scheduled.
    Pretrial officers verify the defendant’s appearance and monitor any conditions the judge may place on the release.

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...




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  11. #9
    One major problem with the arrangement, critics say, is that it often means the poorest cannot escape jail before their hearing, even if their offense is as minor as jumping a subway turnstile or possession of a small amount of marijuana. Let's say a judge sets your bail at $500. A bail bondsman will likely not be interested in posting bond, because his take will be too small - just $50 or $75. But you don't have $500 to pay to secure your release. That means you are trapped behind bars until your court date, which could be weeks away.
    "The idea that somebody goes and sits in Rikers Island [jail] and endures all of the hardship of that simply because they don't have $500 or $1,000 is truly offensive and serves no public purpose," says Jamie Fellner of Human Rights Watch. Two years ago, Fellner's group looked at non-felony offenders in New York City in 2008. While more than three in four were released on their own recognizance, more than 19,000 had their bail set at $1,000 or less. Eighty-seven percent of that group did not post bail; these non-felony offenders spent an average of 15.7 days in jail.
    http://www.cbsnews.com/news/is-the-u...system-unfair/

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  12. #10
    There really needs to be a "Repository" of the topics of "In Just Us" that refers to the links of these Threads. A kind of Library Index. We have one for "Cop Shoots Dog", which is a "sub index". The main index could also refer to it.

    Who has the time/motivation to do this?
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  13. #11
    edit: I guess it could be called the "Most Depressing Index" or "Home of the Free" or something. But perhaps it would reflect the contents so much as the feeling one would get while viewing it, depending on the sarcastic bent one might have.

    So, this is getting weirder. Now I don't have buttons to submit changes during "edit post". Neither can I rep anyone because the rep dialog box doesn't have buttons! WTH?
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by ClydeCoulter View Post
    Neither can I rep anyone because the rep dialog box doesn't have buttons! WTH?
    not sure no issues here... clear cookies and F5

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    not sure no issues here... clear cookies and F5
    I'm having the same problem. Maybe its a browser issue? (I use IE)

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by AgentOrange View Post
    I'm having the same problem. Maybe its a browser issue? (I use IE)
    lubuntu firefox

    'We endorse the idea of voluntarism; self-responsibility: Family, friends, and churches to solve problems, rather than saying that some monolithic government is going to make you take care of yourself and be a better person. It's a preposterous notion: It never worked, it never will. The government can't make you a better person; it can't make you follow good habits.' - Ron Paul 1988

    Awareness is the Root of Liberation Revolution is Action upon Revelation

    'Resistance and Disobedience in Economic Activity is the Most Moral Human Action Possible' - SEK3

    Flectere si nequeo superos, Acheronta movebo.

    ...the familiar ritual of institutional self-absolution...
    ...for protecting them, by mock trial, from punishment...


  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by AgentOrange View Post
    I'm having the same problem. Maybe its a browser issue? (I use IE)
    Dump IE. It's bloatware at best.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Dump IE. It's bloatware at best.
    firefox and chrome have their problems/crashes. IE has always worked better, for me.
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin



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  20. #17
    until now
    "When a portion of wealth is transferred from the person who owns it—without his consent and without compensation, and whether by force or by fraud—to anyone who does not own it, then I say that property is violated; that an act of plunder is committed." - Bastiat : The Law

    "nothing evil grows in alcohol" ~ @presence

    "I mean can you imagine what it would be like if firemen acted like police officers? They would only go into a burning house only if there's a 100% chance they won't get any burns. I mean, you've got to fully protect thy self first." ~ juleswin

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by presence View Post
    3 of those 4 states are morally and econoically bankrupt liberal cess pools. That right there is enough to make me think that bail bondsmen are a good thing. Doing away with these guys does nothing to help the poor - it only serves to keep more of them in jail.

    So this must be an anti-capitalism "profit is evil?" post?
    .

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Dump IE. It's bloatware at best.
    Says the feller with the computer that's all fudged up. Heh. Did you ever get that taken care of?

    Also, thanks for that translation while I'm thinking of it. I appreciated that. I know that you didn't have to do that.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by tod evans View Post
    Sniping at the tentacles of the "Just-Us" department might feel good but in the end nothing is going to change...

    The head of this monster must be severed!
    Qft
    “One may come to the aid of another being unlawfully arrested, just as he may where one is being assaulted, molested, raped or kidnapped. Thus it is not an offense to liberate one from the unlawful custody of an officer, even though he may have submitted to such custody, without resistance.” (Adams v. State, 121 Ga. 16, 48 S.E. 910).

  24. #21
    What years did each of these states get rid of there bail bonds systerrms?

    Illinois, Kentucky Oregon and Wisconsin

    Any more states go bail bonds free in the last 5 years?

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by gwhh View Post
    What years did each of these states get rid of there bail bonds systerrms?

    Illinois, Kentucky Oregon and Wisconsin

    Any more states go bail bonds free in the last 5 years?
    The county I grew up in does not allow it . When you go north into the next county there are a couple as soon as you get into town . Like dry counties in the south.
    Do something Danke

  26. #23
    California went no bail bonds in 2019 for most crimes.

    https://www.desertsun.com/story/news...il/1135978002/

    Which county in which state you grow up in?

    Quote Originally Posted by oyarde View Post
    The county I grew up in does not allow it . When you go north into the next county there are a couple as soon as you get into town . Like dry counties in the south.
    Last edited by gwhh; 03-03-2019 at 01:21 PM.



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