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Thread: What Non-Christians Want Christians To Hear

  1. #1

    What Non-Christians Want Christians To Hear

    Found this read this morning and thought I would share. The comments ring very true to my on experience in listening to the pagan community and to how I have personally felt about many who claim Christianity as their faith path.

    http://www.patheos.com/blogs/unfunda...tians-to-hear/

    Within three days I had in my inbox over 300 emails from non-Christians across the country. Reading them was one of the more depressing experiences of my life. I had expected their cumulative sentiment to be one of mostly anger. But if you boiled down to a single feeling what was most often expressed in the nonbelievers’ statements, it would be Why do Christians hate us so much?
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle



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  3. #2
    Seconded. Great post
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  4. #3
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Seconded. Great post
    Thanks! Many of the comments resonate with my own experiences and the responses I witnessed in the pagan community. Hate just breeds more hatred, but Christians fail to realize that they often plant the seed of resentment and animosity through their failure to listen to the person they are talking at, often deceptive tactics, and single minded concern for gaining souls for the banner they operate under.

  5. #4
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Thanks! Many of the comments resonate with my own experiences and the responses I witnessed in the pagan community. Hate just breeds more hatred, but Christians fail to realize that they often plant the seed of resentment and animosity through their failure to listen to the person they are talking at, often deceptive tactics, and single minded concern for gaining souls for the banner they operate under.
    I agree. If they really want people to follow them they should be a lighthouse! If their light is good then people will automatically follow towards it, and ask who you are and what you practice.

  6. #5
    I wonder what those same nonchristians would say when asked why they hate Jesus so much. I suspect almost all of them would deny it.

  7. #6
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I wonder what those same nonchristians would say when asked why they hate Jesus so much. I suspect almost all of them would deny it.
    What I find amazing is that some of those "nonchristians" can also be a better example of real Christian love then those talking about just how "Christian" they are.

  8. #7
    Great article M.

    When I came to believe so many years ago, I still remember what it was that opened my heart. It was the pastor saying that God accepts us just as we are, he just loves us too much to leave us that way. We don't have to clean ourselves up to come to God (which is humanly impossible anyway, only the Holy Spirit can do that), we come to God and then he himself, with the Holy Spirit working in us - bit by bit makes changes in our hearts where we allow him to. We bring our faith and trust God for the rest!

    I think one of the great mistakes many Christians make is trying to convict others of their sin. That is the work of the Holy Spirit and not man. It is one thing for man to show people what the Word says about sin, but.... to convict others of sin is the work of the Holy Spirit. When we step into trying to play God - we are in very dangerous territory because it was Satan himself who said he was going to "be like the Most High". Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So we are to present the word, then........ love and let The Holy Spirit do the work of convicting and convincing. It is love that wins hearts, not judgement by condescending Christians.

    I love the old hymns!! They speak so much to the heart and of the Word and truth. This is one that was very close to my heart and is exactly what I am speaking of here:
    Just as I am, without one plea,
    But that Thy blood was shed for me,
    And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, and waiting not
    To rid my soul of one dark blot,
    To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, though tossed about
    With many a conflict, many a doubt,
    Fightings and fears within, without,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
    Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
    Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
    Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
    Because Thy promise I believe,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, Thy love unknown
    Hath broken every barrier down;
    Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, of that free love
    The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove,
    Here for a season, then above,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come!

    Experience teaches us that it is much easier to prevent an enemy from posting themselves than it is to dislodge them after they have got possession.
    ~ George Washington

  9. #8
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I wonder what those same nonchristians would say when asked why they hate Jesus so much. I suspect almost all of them would deny it.
    Yes, we get that question all the time - "Why do you hate God?" Which most non-Christians deny because it is an absurd question. But very rarely do we get asked "Why do you hate Christians?" So there's a difference there -- Christians often perceive non-Christians as hating God, but non-Christians often perceive Christians as hating them.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    I think one of the great mistakes many Christians make is trying to convict others of their sin. That is the work of the Holy Spirit and not man. It is one thing for man to show people what the Word says about sin, but.... to convict others of sin is the work of the Holy Spirit. When we step into trying to play God - we are in very dangerous territory because it was Satan himself who said he was going to "be like the Most High". Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So we are to present the word, then........ love and let The Holy Spirit do the work of convicting and convincing. It is love that wins hearts, not judgement by condescending Christians.
    God also works through mankind to rebuke and convict someone to repentance in Him. The Holy Spirit leads us and guides us, but we're supposed to do what we've been called to do in Christ in obedience to that same Holy Spirit. Once the seed of rebuke, has been planted--then it's up to God to work in their minds and hearts by their own willingness to change and repent of what's being revealed to them through the Holy Spirits witness.

    Pandering to hate, revenge and lies is not what we're called to do in order to not offend someone. Truth offends all by itself when someone refuses to see it. We can forgive someone, but at the same time we don't have to respect them for what they're doing. God works through willing vessels to correct and rebuke bad behavior. Forgiveness follows repentance.

  12. #10
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Thanks! Many of the comments resonate with my own experiences and the responses I witnessed in the pagan community. Hate just breeds more hatred, but Christians fail to realize that they often plant the seed of resentment and animosity through their failure to listen to the person they are talking at, often deceptive tactics, and single minded concern for gaining souls for the banner they operate under.
    You mean when someone repeatedly accuses someone of subscribing to something that they've repeatedly told them they don't. Yeah--I can certainly see where that would breed hatred and animosity.

  13. #11
    The idea that if you don't believe in the Christian God, then you need to be rebuked, is part of the problem. It doesn't really matter to us if Christians think the rebuke should come from Christians or God, or God through Christians, or whatever. There's no way around it though. Making people recognize their own failings is an essential part of the Christian message, and the only way to do that is by rebuke, whether directly or indirectly. Thing is, I am well aware of my failings, and although I appreciate criticism, I don't need Christians constantly telling me about them in order to sell me their product.
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

  14. #12
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    The idea that if you don't believe in the Christian God, then you need to be rebuked, is part of the problem. It doesn't really matter to us if Christians think the rebuke should come from Christians or God, or God through Christians, or whatever. There's no way around it though. Making people recognize their own failings is an essential part of the Christian message, and the only way to do that is by rebuke, whether directly or indirectly. Thing is, I am well aware of my failings, and although I appreciate criticism, I don't need Christians constantly telling me about them in order to sell me their product.
    Well said.

  15. #13
    Quote Originally Posted by Miss Annie View Post
    Great article M.

    When I came to believe so many years ago, I still remember what it was that opened my heart. It was the pastor saying that God accepts us just as we are, he just loves us too much to leave us that way. We don't have to clean ourselves up to come to God (which is humanly impossible anyway, only the Holy Spirit can do that), we come to God and then he himself, with the Holy Spirit working in us - bit by bit makes changes in our hearts where we allow him to. We bring our faith and trust God for the rest!

    I think one of the great mistakes many Christians make is trying to convict others of their sin. That is the work of the Holy Spirit and not man. It is one thing for man to show people what the Word says about sin, but.... to convict others of sin is the work of the Holy Spirit. When we step into trying to play God - we are in very dangerous territory because it was Satan himself who said he was going to "be like the Most High". Ro 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God. So we are to present the word, then........ love and let The Holy Spirit do the work of convicting and convincing. It is love that wins hearts, not judgement by condescending Christians.

    I love the old hymns!! They speak so much to the heart and of the Word and truth. This is one that was very close to my heart and is exactly what I am speaking of here:
    Just as I am, without one plea,
    But that Thy blood was shed for me,
    And that Thou bidst me come to Thee,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, and waiting not
    To rid my soul of one dark blot,
    To Thee whose blood can cleanse each spot,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, though tossed about
    With many a conflict, many a doubt,
    Fightings and fears within, without,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, poor, wretched, blind;
    Sight, riches, healing of the mind,
    Yea, all I need in Thee to find,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, Thou wilt receive,
    Wilt welcome, pardon, cleanse, relieve;
    Because Thy promise I believe,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, Thy love unknown
    Hath broken every barrier down;
    Now, to be Thine, yea, Thine alone,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come.

    Just as I am, of that free love
    The breadth, length, depth, and height to prove,
    Here for a season, then above,
    O Lamb of God, I come, I come!


    Excellent post! Much agreed. Favorite hymn of mine as well.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  16. #14
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I wonder what those same nonchristians would say when asked why they hate Jesus so much. I suspect almost all of them would deny it.
    Probably because they don't hate Him, it is an assumption or false allegation ascribed to outsiders to convince them of their need to submit to the banner of the church passing the judgement. Everyone sins and falls short.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  17. #15
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    The idea that if you don't believe in the Christian God, then you need to be rebuked, is part of the problem. It doesn't really matter to us if Christians think the rebuke should come from Christians or God, or God through Christians, or whatever. There's no way around it though. Making people recognize their own failings is an essential part of the Christian message, and the only way to do that is by rebuke, whether directly or indirectly. Thing is, I am well aware of my failings, and although I appreciate criticism, I don't need Christians constantly telling me about them in order to sell me their product.
    I think this is the take away point by those who use Scripture and their faith for the purpose of claiming human judgement and authority is the same as speaking for higher Wisdom. They are power tripping and being consumed by their own ego, and destroying the lives and conscience of other people in the process. Imo, I believe there is likely to be an accounting for this behavior. The voice you hear reminding you of your own failings is the greatest, and more accurate assessment, than some pretentious human wanting to sit in judgement of your particular failings.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  18. #16
    Quote Originally Posted by westkyle View Post
    I agree. If they really want people to follow them they should be a lighthouse! If their light is good then people will automatically follow towards it, and ask who you are and what you practice.
    Indeed!
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle



  19. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  20. #17
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    You mean when someone repeatedly accuses someone of subscribing to something that they've repeatedly told them they don't. Yeah--I can certainly see where that would breed hatred and animosity.
    Proverbs 26:11Like a dog that returns to its vomit Is a fool who repeats his folly.

    So I am going to heed:

    Proverbs 26: 4Do not answer a fool according to his folly,
    Or you will also be like him.

    That has been my gravest error.

    ~~~peace on your path
    Last edited by moostraks; 11-02-2014 at 02:38 PM.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  21. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    Yes, we get that question all the time - "Why do you hate God?" Which most non-Christians deny because it is an absurd question.
    Why do you think it's absurd?

    Quote Originally Posted by Crashland View Post
    non-Christians often perceive Christians as hating them.
    I can't speak for them, nor do I want to defend everyone who calls himself a Christian, but do they really perceive that? If so, why? What hateful things do Christians do to them?

  22. #19
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Probably because they don't hate Him
    Jesus says they do.

  23. #20
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Jesus says they do.
    And here I thought He said He was going to be the Judge of that and not the human attempting to get someone to conform to their particular banner. Silly me.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  24. #21
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Why do you think it's absurd?


    I can't speak for them, nor do I want to defend everyone who calls himself a Christian, but do they really perceive that? If so, why? What hateful things do Christians do to them?

    Link contained some explanation from a number of different respondents, fwiw...
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  25. #22
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    And here I thought He said He was going to be the Judge of that and not the human attempting to get someone to conform to their particular banner. Silly me.
    He is the judge. And he says they do.

  26. #23
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Link contained some explanation from a number of different respondents, fwiw...
    Thanks. I had assumed that the nonchristian feedback he referred to would have some basis to it and that I'd sympathize with a lot of it and think to myself that, yes, these are cases of Christians doing things wrong.

    But now that I have actually read it, I'm struck by just how much of it, practically all of it, is just nonchristians venting their hatred of Jesus himself, and complaining about Christians doing good, rather than wrong. They might as well complain against a fire alarm for warning them that their house is on fire. Many of them even remake Jesus into someone whose message was the exact opposite of what it really was, pretending that he himself did not convict people of sin.

    What surprises me most is how sympathetic the author of the article seems to be to those sentiments.

  27. #24
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    He is the judge. And he says they do.
    And therein lay the rub. You will likely wish to spend an extensive amount proclaiming this authority and if it is upon who is a member of your church and the mission of your church, then by all means go right ahead and decide whom you want to associate and put forth in your name. Otherwise I would say it falls within:

    Principles of Conscience

    Romans 14:1Now accept the one who is weak in faith, but not for the purpose of passing judgment on his opinions. 2One person has faith that he may eat all things, but he who is weak eats vegetables only. 3The one who eats is not to regard with contempt the one who does not eat, and the one who does not eat is not to judge the one who eats, for God has accepted him. 4Who are you to judge the servant of another? To his own master he stands or falls; and he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.
    5One person regards one day above another, another regards every day alike. Each person must be fully convinced in his own mind. 6He who observes the day, observes it for the Lord, and he who eats, does so for the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who eats not, for the Lord he does not eat, and gives thanks to God. 7For not one of us lives for himself, and not one dies for himself; 8for if we live, we live for the Lord, or if we die, we die for the Lord; therefore whether we live or die, we are the Lord’s. 9For to this end Christ died and lived again, that He might be Lord both of the dead and of the living.

    10But you, why do you judge your brother? Or you again, why do you regard your brother with contempt? For we will all stand before the judgment seat of God.

    11For it is written,
    “AS I LIVE, SAYS THE LORD, EVERY KNEE SHALL BOW TO ME,
    AND EVERY TONGUE SHALL GIVE PRAISE TO GOD.”

    12So then each one of us will give an account of himself to God.

    13Therefore let us not judge one another anymore, but rather determine this—not to put an obstacle or a stumbling block in a brother’s way. 14I know and am convinced in the Lord Jesus that nothing is unclean in itself; but to him who thinks anything to be unclean, to him it is unclean. 15For if because of food your brother is hurt, you are no longer walking according to love. Do not destroy with your food him for whom Christ died. 16Therefore do not let what is for you a good thing be spoken of as evil; 17for the kingdom of God is not eating and drinking, but righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. 18For he who in this way serves Christ is acceptable to God and approved by men. 19So then we pursue the things which make for peace and the building up of one another. 20Do not tear down the work of God for the sake of food. All things indeed are clean, but they are evil for the man who eats and gives offense. 21It is good not to eat meat or to drink wine, or to do anything by which your brother stumbles. 22The faith which you have, have as your own conviction before God. Happy is he who does not condemn himself in what he approves. 23But he who doubts is condemned if he eats, because his eating is not from faith; and whatever is not from faith is sin.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle



  28. Remove this section of ads by registering.
  29. #25
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    He is the judge. And he says they do.
    Many don't hate him. They just do not know him, yet. This is why Ghandi's line about Christians being unlike Christ is painful because the truth hurts, and why we need to work on being Christ-like if we want to be his light to the world.

    I didn't hate Jesus when I was an atheist.

  30. #26
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Thanks. I had assumed that the nonchristian feedback he referred to would have some basis to it and that I'd sympathize with a lot of it and think to myself that, yes, these are cases of Christians doing things wrong.

    But now that I have actually read it, I'm struck by just how much of it, practically all of it, is just nonchristians venting their hatred of Jesus himself, and complaining about Christians doing good, rather than wrong. They might as well complain against a fire alarm for warning them that their house is on fire. Many of them even remake Jesus into someone whose message was the exact opposite of what it really was, pretending that he himself did not convict people of sin.

    What surprises me most is how sympathetic the author of the article seems to be to those sentiments.
    You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  31. #27
    Quote Originally Posted by RJB View Post
    Many don't hate him. They just do not know him, yet. This is why Ghandi's line about Christians being unlike Christ is painful because the truth hurts, and why we need to work on being Christ-like if we want to be his light to the world.

    I didn't hate Jesus when I was an atheist.
    Until a person is regenerated, all human beings are God's enemies. They do hate Him. Jesus Himself is the sole exception to this. This is the state from which we all need to be saved. It isn't that we just make innocent mistakes. It's that we're positively rebellious against God. In order for any of us to become saved it was necessary that God lead us to accept this fact and to repent, turning from that hatred of Him to faith in Him.
    Last edited by erowe1; 11-02-2014 at 02:57 PM.

  32. #28
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    You can lead a horse to water but you cannot make them drink.
    I agree. But what almost all these Christians in the article in the OP are objecting to is that anyone would try to lead them to water at all.

    The author of the article opened it by saying that he solicited their responses to being proselytized, and then went on to list all these objections to the whole idea of proselytizing. He seems to be pushing the thesis, "Christians, here's what's wrong with how you share the Gospel: that you do it at all."
    Last edited by erowe1; 11-02-2014 at 02:58 PM.

  33. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    I agree. But what almost all these Christians in the article in the OP are objecting to is that anyone would try to lead them to water at all.

    The author of the article opened it by saying that he solicited their responses to being proselytized, and then went on to list all these objections to the whole idea of proselytizing. He seems to be pushing the thesis, "Christians, here's what's wrong with how you share the Gospel: that you do it at all."
    Maybe because you are seeing it through the eyes of how you expect to do it according to the system you know rather than listening to the responses from the consumer whom you are selling the product? Idk. But I, personally feel this is the better method:

    Quote Originally Posted by westkyle View Post
    I agree. If they really want people to follow them they should be a lighthouse! If their light is good then people will automatically follow towards it, and ask who you are and what you practice.
    But that's my take after my experiences and listening to ther folks that have disdain for the current method.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  34. #30
    Quote Originally Posted by erowe1 View Post
    Why do you think it's absurd?
    Why do you hate Zeus?


    I can't speak for them, nor do I want to defend everyone who calls himself a Christian, but do they really perceive that? If so, why? What hateful things do Christians do to them?
    You can read the comments in the OP, to start
    Hofstadter's Law: It always takes longer than you expect, even when you take into account Hofstadter's Law. -Douglas Hofstadter

    Life, Liberty, Logic

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