Originally Posted by pcosmar
Pete,
If Jesus died for a person, fully atoned for their sins, and completely satisfied the wrath of God for that person, and that person end up in Hell forever, what benefit or power is there in Christ's blood at all?
I guess God is just too weak to actually save everyone, even though he wants to.
And, if any of you guys are saying "that's heresy", you're right. And this is why I reject the Arminian heresy to. Arminianism logically leads to what I said in the first paragraph.
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If a chef created the perfect plate of hors d'oeuvres, and presented them at a party, and someone didn't have any, but everyone else did and experienced the taste sensation of their lives, did that one person reduce the chef to powerlessness and complete ineffectiveness?
I find it hard to believe God thinks the one tree in front of His face is the whole forest.
So instead of admitting that God doesn't save everyone because He's too weak to do it, some people decide He doesn't because He's too hateful to want to. And get upset when some people consider that heresy.
Refusing to force beings to do what they should do and would be good for them isn't weakness. It can actually require inhuman strength. Tyranny is a mighty tempting vice.
Last edited by acptulsa; 01-29-2015 at 10:43 AM.
If a judge completely exonerated you of your capital crime, wouldn't it be wrong if the judge took you out back after the case was adjourned and shot you in the street?
Its not that he's too hateful. Every single person who goes to Hell deserves what they get. God is actually being merciful by delaying their punishment as long as he does. Even making a comment like this implies that at some level you think people deserve grace.So instead of admitting that God doesn't save everyone because He's too weak to do it, some people decide He doesn't because He's too hateful to want to. And get upset when some people consider that heresy.
And, I'm not "upset" at all.
This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading
Jesus doesn't shoot the innocent, and He doesn't exonerate the guilty. To say otherwise is something I consider heresy.
Jesus forgives the guilty so they won't decide they've already blown the thing and give up on making themselves less unworthy. For anyone with an ounce of humanity, that's what gives God's divine mercy its overwhelming, tear-inducing beauty.
Is the judge more interested in vengeance or reclamation? Are you sure you've got the right judge?
If people deserved Grace, the love behind it would not be so incredibly beautiful. And if God micromanages us into Hell--especially Dante's Hell of eternal torment--'being merciful' is an odd description for delaying the descent a few years.
Last edited by acptulsa; 01-29-2015 at 10:55 AM.
I think that the argument you guys make is logical. It makes sense. However, I just think there are far too many passages in the Bible which contradict limited atonement for it to be true. So even though the idea of Christ dying for everyone and only saving some doesn't seem to be as logical as the idea that Christ only died for some and saves everyone he dies for, I think the Biblical evidence has to trump what I as a human being may see as being the most logical position.
Now, then. This is what faith looks like.
Sir, could it be that you are downplaying the seriousness of sin and the wrath of God against that sin?
In your view man isn't even responsible for his sin. God simply predestines his sin and causes that person to sin. So how is that person deserving of being punished for his sin when he didn't choose to sin and has no control over whether or not he sins?
Sir, could it be that you are downplaying God's love and the desire that God has for His children to outgrow our pettiness and selfishness?
Jesus is the one who died to redeem some of us. If you want universal vengeance, blame Jesus for sparing some sinners, not me.
Last edited by acptulsa; 01-29-2015 at 11:11 AM.
No. Man is responsible for his sin. That would be insane and heretical to say otherwise. Man's responsibility comes from the fact that God is above him and holds him accountable.
God holds man accountable for something God did?
No, I don't downplay any aspect of God's being. But wrath against sin and justice is part of God's nature....and it is the sin in our hearts that downplay this. Because we know deep down we are guilty.
God doesn't sin. Man does.
Furthermore God does not sin in decreeing sin. Why? Because God has a good purpose for decreeing those acts. Also, no one is above Him to hold him accountable to anything.
Why not? S_F, like everyone else, creates God in his own image, because we all lack the knowledge and imagination to do anything more.
Do you really think that if he made a mistake at work, he wouldn't blame an underling if he could? You've been reading his posts long enough to have a clue...
See what I mean?
I get the second part of this, but the first one almost seems like a tacit acceptance of utilitarianism.
This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading
It could be if man were to do it. But there is a metaphysical and moral distinction between God and man. God is good, man is evil.
I agree. So, are you basically saying "having a good reason for decreeing evil" works only if you are God?
This post represents only the opinions of Christian Liberty and not the rest of the forum. Use discretion when reading
God is good and man is evil even when they do the exact same things for the exact same reasons.
God doesn't need excuses like this. God doesn't need evil redefined as good before He can do good. The only thing that needs redefinitions and excuses is heretical dogma.
A righteous Judge would not do such.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Because of something you seem to have trouble comprehending.
Free Will. Salvation is a Free Gift. Freely offered.. and freely accepted.(or rejected)
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
True. And God is a righteous judge right?
So how could God completely forgive a man's sin, and yet eternally judge him afterwards?
Asked and answered. Are you a robot or a man?
But if man makes no effort at all to make himself less unworthy, why would God not toss the clay against a rock?
How many times are you going to ignore the answer and repeat the question this time? Are you a man or a robot?
If God wants to waste His effort giving second chances to those who will not take them, it might not be efficient, but it sure does prove Jesus' claim that God is Love.
Did Jesus ever say God is 100% efficient? Ever?
We aren't talking about the will. We are talking about the just judge. How can the judge be just if he condemns the man for something he has already been exonerated for?
Hell was never made for man. The only way a man will end up there is by choice.
Hell was created for the devil, and for those that follow him.
Then shall he say also unto them on the left hand, Depart from me, ye cursed, into everlasting fire, prepared for the devil and his angels:
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
That verse is not saying "Hell was only made for the devil"
It's saying "this place is so horrible that it was fashioned for the devil. You don't want to go there!"
Yes we are.
You are making the claim that we have no choice,, no free will,, NO SAY in the matter. That we are saved or condemned with no choice in the matter.
I reject this concept it total.
I am fully convinced that Free will is the whole purpose of our creation.. That God desires a people that will Love and serve by choice and not by force.
Liberty is lost through complacency and a subservient mindset. When we accept or even welcome automobile checkpoints, random searches, mandatory identification cards, and paramilitary police in our streets, we have lost a vital part of our American heritage. America was born of protest, revolution, and mistrust of government. Subservient societies neither maintain nor deserve freedom for long.
Ron Paul 2004
Registered Ron Paul supporter # 2202
It's all about Freedom
Matthew 25: 41 is talking about a future event, after the judgment. It isn't saying that "hell" has already been created. The word "hell" isn't even mentioned in the verse. (And the word "hell" isn't even in the original Greek/Hebrew Bible at all) People just read things into the verse that aren't there because of the way that they've been programmed by their church.
If you do that one more time, I will post the Mirriam Webster definitions of 'exonerate' and 'forgive' here, rub your noses in them, and declare you to be a false prophet.
And Pete didn't say only the devil will wind up there.
I think I finally get why you're so fascinated by this place. You've spent your whole life blathering in the faces of people who were either too stupid to notice you're putting words in their mouths or too polite and/or too anxious to escape your presence to make you stop it.
And you come here and you can't win an argument to save your life. And you refuse to go away until you figure out why.
Well, now that you know...
Last edited by acptulsa; 01-29-2015 at 12:18 PM.
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