So I just discovered this about Islam

[pessimist]

In Islam, crow is one of the five animals for which there is no blame on the one who kills them


BOOOOOOOOO

[Dr.3D]

So to them, killing crows is kosher?

[RJB]

Are crows allowed to be banned from internet forums?

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5683314

[RJB]

So to them, killing crows is kosher?

Halal?

[Deborah K]

What about eating crow?

[presence]

Crows are famously clever creatures — so much so that the birds' intelligence was recognized in ancient lore. In the story of "The Crow and the Pitcher" from Aesop's Fables, a thirsty crow drops stones into narrow jar to raise the low level of water inside so he can take a drink.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2014/0...n_5062314.html

Hungry birds have always been a problem for farmers. Sometimes the birds ate so much corn or wheat that a farmer and his family would not have enough food to last through the winter. So, for more than 3,000 years, farmers have been making scarecrows.

http://home.comcast.net/~minelson/hi...scarecrows.htm

[Dr.3D]

Halal?

I'm fine, thank you.

[William Tell]

In Islam, crow is one of the five animals for which there is no blame on the one who kills them


BOOOOOOOOO

What, you don't wanna go to Valhalla yet?

[RJB]

I've read that crows can count (No Counting Crows puns please). For example if they see four hunters enter an area, they are still on guard if three leave with the awareness that 1 is still lurking somewhere.

[Miss Annie]

What about eating crow?

In my experience, when you have to eat crow...... it is best served warm! LOL

[Deborah K]

In my experience, when you have to eat crow...... it is best served warm! LOL

And usually with sour grapes!!

[Dr.3D]

I've heard, if prepared properly, it can taste just like chicken.

[anaconda]

So, what is the nature of the "blame" for killing animals outside the five animal non-protected exemptions?

[presence]

So, what is the nature of the "blame" for killing animals outside the five animal non-protected exemptions?

It would be "sinful" to kill any other animal without "cause" or the intent to eat it

Killing Crows, Kites, Mice, Scorpions and Dogs

Narrated Hafsa: Allah's Apostle said, "It is not sinful (of a Muhrim) to kill five kinds of animals, namely: the crow, the kite, the mouse, the scorpion and the rabid dog."
Sahih Bukhari 3:29:54

Narrated Aisha: Allah's Apostle said, "Five kinds of animals are harmful and could be killed in the Haram (Sanctuary). These are: the crow, the kite, the scorpion, the mouse and the rabid dog."
Sahih Bukhari 3:29:55

Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet said, "Five kinds of animals are mischief-doers and can be killed even in the Sanctuary: They are the rat the scorpion, the kite, the crow and the rabid dog."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:531

Narrated 'Abdullah bin 'Umar: Allah's Apostle said, "It is not sinful of a person in the state of Ihram to kill any of these five animals: The scorpion, the rat, the rabid dog, the crow and the kite."
Sahih Bukhari 4:54:532

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) as saying: Five are the harmful things which should be killed in the state of Ihram or otherwise: snake, speckled crow. rat. voracious dog, and kite.
Sahih Muslim 7:2718

A'isha (Allah be pleased with her) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: Five are the vicious beasts which should be killed even in the state of Ihram: scorpion, rat, kite, crow and voracious dog.
Sahih Muslim 7:2719

Salim reported on the authority of his father (Allah be pleased with them) that the Apostle of Allah (may peace be upon him) said: Five are the (beasts) which if one kills them in the precincts of the Ka'ba or in the state of lhram entail no sin: rat, scorpion, crow, kite and voracious dog. In another version the words are:" as a Muhrim and in the state of lhram".
Sahih Muslim 7:2724

Hafsa, the wife of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him), reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) having said this: There are five beasts, all of them are vicious and harmful and there is no sin for one who kills them (and these are): scorpion, crow, kite, rat and voracious dog.
Sahih Muslim 7:2725

Zaid b. Jubair reported: A person asked Ibn Umar which beast a Muhrim could kill. Thereupon he said: One of the wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) told me: He (the Holy Prophet) commanded to kill rat, scorpion, kite, voracious dog and crow.
Sahih Muslim 7:2726

Zaid b. Jubair reported: A person asked Ibn 'Umar which beast a Mubrim could kill, whereupon he said: One of the wives of Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) told me: He (the Holy Prophet) commanded to kill voracious dog, rat, scorpion, kite, crow, and snake (and this is allowed) likewise in prayer.
Sahih Muslim 7:2727

Yahya related to me from Malik from Nafi from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "There are five kinds of animal which it is not wrong for some one in ihram to kill: crows, kites, scorpions, rats and mice, and wild dogs."
Al-Muwatta 20 26.89

Yahya related to me from Malik from Abdullah ibn Dinar from Abdullah ibn Umar that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace,said,"There are five (kinds of) animal which it is not wrong for some one in ihram to kill: scorpions, rats and mice, crows, kites and wild dogs. "
Al-Muwatta 20 26.90

Yahya related to me from Malik from Hisham ibn Urwa from his father that the Messenger of Allah, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, said, "There are five trespassers that can be killed in the Haram: rats and mice, scorpions, crows, kites and wild dogs."
Al-Muwatta 20 26.91

Yahya related to me from Malik from Ibn Shihab that Umar ibn al-Khattab told people to kill snakes in the Haram. Malik said, about the "wild dogs" which people were told to kill in the Haram, that any animals that wounded, attacked, or terrorised men, such as lions, leopards, Iynxes and wolves, were counted as"wild dogs." However, someone who was in ihram should not kill beasts of prey that did not attack (people), such as hyenas, foxes, cats and anything else like them, and if he did then he had to pay a forfeit for it. Similarly, someone in ihram should not kill any predatory birds except the kinds that the Prophet, may Allah bless him and grant him peace, specified, namely crows and kites. If someone in ihram killed any other kind of bird he had to pay a forfeit for it.
Al-Muwatta 20 26.92

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Qur%27an,_...illing_Animals

more on kites:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kite_%28bird%29

[Dr.3D]

Oh oh.... look out, dogs are on the list.

Alright, who told the cops?

[Miss Annie]

I guess that's why ISIS's tweets are all full of those cute little kitties. But, oh wait, I forgot - ISIS isn't Islamic.

[Dr.3D]

I guess that's why ISIS's tweets are all full of those cute little kitties. But, oh wait, I forgot - ISIS isn't Islamic.

Yeah, the name must be to fool people into becoming Islamophobic.

[TN_VOL]

Some of them also apparently believe that Muhammad split the moon in two then I guess he put it back together.

[Muwahid]

The general principle is that vermin which pester you, may spread disease or harm you, may be killed without sin.

The flipside, is the general principle in regard to animals in general according to the prophet: دخلَت امرأة النار في هرة حبستها ، لا هي أطعمتها إذ هي حبستها ، ولا هي تركتها تأكل من خَشَاشِ الأرض (A woman entered hell-fire for caging a cat, and starving it, and she did not let it free to eat the vermin)

Questions? Comments? Concerns?

[TER]

Concerns?

I guess the biggest one I have is that in Islam, killing vermin is of no sin or consequence, yet killing an infidel (read: a human being made in the image of God) promises great riches and rewards. Seem like humans are not only included in the list of living beings as 'acceptable kills', but in a sick and twisted way is in a category all by itself.

[anaconda]

I guess the biggest one I have is that in Islam, killing vermin is of no sin or consequence, yet killing an infidel (read: a human being made in the image of God) promises great riches and rewards. Seem like humans are not only included in the list of living beings as 'acceptable kills', but in a sick and twisted way is in a category all by itself.

Christians have a long history of murdering the godless.

[Miss Annie]

Christians have a long history of murdering the godless.

History is not the present. We are talking about what is going on in the present.

[Muwahid]

I guess the biggest one I have is that in Islam, killing vermin is of no sin or consequence, yet killing an infidel (read: a human being made in the image of God) promises great riches and rewards. Seem like humans are not only included in the list of living beings as 'acceptable kills', but in a sick and twisted way is in a category all by itself.

We must look at Islamic doctrine through general principles first, before applying special cases and scenarios, in any case this verse sums up the concerns you may have:

5:32 من قتل نفسا بغير نفس او فسادفي الارض فكانما قتل الناس جميعا ومن احياها فكانما احيا الناس جميعا (Whoever kills someone not out of retaliation for murder, or against a transgressor* then it's as if he killed all of humanity, and anyone who saves a person, it's as if he saved all of humanity)

This is the general picture Islam gives regarding life and death of not only believers but 'an-naas jamee3an' all of humanity. I gave an asterisk to transgressor, because this means someone who is waging war in the land, an enemy to the people.

Another powerful hadith in my opinion is when a funeral procession was passing by the prophet Muhammad ص and he stood out of respect. His companions informed him that it was a jewish funeral, not a Muslim, and he rebuked them saying 'a-laysaa nafsan?', meaning, Is he not a human being?

The reward in jihaad comes from defending your family, land, religion, etc. There's great honor in standing against people who intend harm upon your people. And I believe the highest honor should go to those who died in the front lines defending their people. It needs to be put into perspective, there's nothing admirable about invading lands and oppressing people, but the true interpretation of Islamic jihaad is not about invading and oppressing.

[TER]

Christians have a long history of murdering the godless.

Christians have done this either due to spiritual delusion or for selfish gain (the two major reasons I believe Muslims kill the infidel) and decisively NOT because the revealed Father in Heaven has promised eternal riches and rewards for the murder of His children. That may be the lie they tell themselves, but the Suffering Servant and crucified Christ testifies against them.

[Miss Annie]

We must look at Islamic doctrine through general principles first, before applying special cases and scenarios, in any case this verse sums up the concerns you may have:

5:32 من قتل نفسا بغير نفس او فسادفي الارض فكانما قتل الناس جميعا ومن احياها فكانما احيا الناس جميعا (Whoever kills someone not out of retaliation for murder, or against a transgressor* then it's as if he killed all of humanity, and anyone who saves a person, it's as if he saved all of humanity)

This is the general picture Islam gives regarding life and death of not only believers but 'an-naas jamee3an' all of humanity. I gave an asterisk to transgressor, because this means someone who is waging war in the land, an enemy to the people.

Another powerful hadith in my opinion is when a funeral procession was passing by the prophet Muhammad ص and he stood out of respect. His companions informed him that it was a jewish funeral, not a Muslim, and he rebuked them saying 'a-laysaa nafsan?', meaning, Is he not a human being?

The reward in jihaad comes from defending your family, land, religion, etc. There's great honor in standing against people who intend harm upon your people. And I believe the highest honor should go to those who died in the front lines defending their people. It needs to be put into perspective, there's nothing admirable about invading lands and oppressing people, but the true interpretation of Islamic jihaad is not about invading and oppressing.

Jihad is to further the cause of Allah.
Also, under Sharia, a Christian must convert, pay Jizya, leave or die. It's really that simple.

[TER]

We must look at Islamic doctrine through general principles first, before applying special cases and scenarios, in any case this verse sums up the concerns you may have:

5:32 من قتل نفسا بغير نفس او فسادفي الارض فكانما قتل الناس جميعا ومن احياها فكانما احيا الناس جميعا (Whoever kills someone not out of retaliation for murder, or against a transgressor* then it's as if he killed all of humanity, and anyone who saves a person, it's as if he saved all of humanity)

This is the general picture Islam gives regarding life and death of not only believers but 'an-naas jamee3an' all of humanity. I gave an asterisk to transgressor, because this means someone who is waging war in the land, an enemy to the people.

Another powerful hadith in my opinion is when a funeral procession was passing by the prophet Muhammad ص and he stood out of respect. His companions informed him that it was a jewish funeral, not a Muslim, and he rebuked them saying 'a-laysaa nafsan?', meaning, Is he not a human being?

The reward in jihaad comes from defending your family, land, religion, etc. There's great honor in standing against people who intend harm upon your people. And I believe the highest honor should go to those who died in the front lines defending their people. It needs to be put into perspective, there's nothing admirable about invading lands and oppressing people, but the true interpretation of Islamic jihaad is not about invading and oppressing.

We will have to agree to disagree. You look at the beauty of the Islamic faith (of which I will not say it does not contain in parts), and your justifications of the evils of the Islamic faith stare straight into my human eyes and I see pure evil. To deny that one of Islam's main religious tenets is for world domination and the eradication of all other faiths even if by force is a denial from selective ignorance. All the nice parts of the Koran do not erase this major theme and the historical genocides done supposedly in the name of Allah. Are self-professed Christians innocent of such evil? No, but they cannot point to the Father revealed by Christ or the teachings of the Lord for justification for such conquest. Christ's commission was to go and baptize, not to threaten with a sword, terrorize through fear, and kill the infidel.

The charge of Christ to the Christian is to love and pray for those who persecute them, knowing love is only true and divine when in the Spirit of God. To live in Christ means to love as Christ loved, and where we stumble and are deficient, we pray for mercy and that God Who can do all things can give us the love which we lack, the mercy we keep hidden and the forgiveness we deny. And our love and our hope is not in subjugation and in tyranny of others, but in communion with God and through God all things within the eternal Kingdom of Heaven, not of this world but in the Age to come.

It is, as it will always be, much more difficult to be a Christian in a world which hates it and fights against it, and especially because of the moral code our Lord has commanded. "Turn the other cheek" "Do good to those who do evil to you". For even when it is not us but our fellow Christians who do evil, it is our commandment to rise up and denounce and protect those who suffer on account of them, regardless of the race or religion.

I accept your right to believe in the Islamic faith, please accept my right to deny it. If you can do this, then we can be friends. But please tell your like minded peaceful Muslims who focus on the good parts of the Koran and ignore the evil parts (IOW, the moderates) to be more vocal, demonstrate more disapproval as a unified voice, against the atrocities jihadists are doing in the name of Allah. Because although platitudes and statements make nice press pieces, the overwhelming silence is deafening and the passive consent does little to earn any love or respect for your religion or your Prophet.

Muwahid, I am leaving this as my last post to this thread.

[Kevin007]

We must look at Islamic doctrine through general principles first, before applying special cases and scenarios, in any case this verse sums up the concerns you may have:

5:32 من قتل نفسا بغير نفس او فسادفي الارض فكانما قتل الناس جميعا ومن احياها فكانما احيا الناس جميعا (Whoever kills someone not out of retaliation for murder, or against a transgressor* then it's as if he killed all of humanity, and anyone who saves a person, it's as if he saved all of humanity)

This is the general picture Islam gives regarding life and death of not only believers but 'an-naas jamee3an' all of humanity. I gave an asterisk to transgressor, because this means someone who is waging war in the land, an enemy to the people.

Another powerful hadith in my opinion is when a funeral procession was passing by the prophet Muhammad ص and he stood out of respect. His companions informed him that it was a jewish funeral, not a Muslim, and he rebuked them saying 'a-laysaa nafsan?', meaning, Is he not a human being?

The reward in jihaad comes from defending your family, land, religion, etc. There's great honor in standing against people who intend harm upon your people. And I believe the highest honor should go to those who died in the front lines defending their people. It needs to be put into perspective, there's nothing admirable about invading lands and oppressing people, but the true interpretation of Islamic jihaad is not about invading and oppressing.

Islam is a false religion based on the moon god. Muhammud made it up because he saw everyone else worship many gods.

[Kevin007]

http://www.thereligionofpeace.com/Pa...s-of-Islam.htm

I invite all non-muslims to research and this is an excellent website. Answeringislam.com also.

[Muwahid]

Islam is a false religion based on the moon god. Muhammud made it up because he saw everyone else worship many gods.

How did an illiterate man with no education (especially not in theology), create an entire religion, with detailed knowledge of past abrahamic prophets and messengers, how did he create a Qur'an in exquisite poetry which moved Arabs such as Umar ibn al Khattab (who was a lover of poetry), when Muhammad ص had no history of being a poet? How did he then convert the Quran into 6 different dialects for the different types of Arabs? Some companions having memorized several dialects of the Quran in their entirety?

These are questions non-believers must ask themselves.

There have yet to be any solid naturalistic explanations to how Islam itself was actually formed unless it had divine inspiration. And unlike previous religions there is historical basis for Islam, there are no gaps where historical records were non-existence (like the 100 years or so between Jesus and the gospels due to persecution of the Christians).

So the only option people who choose to remain non-believers have is, it's inspired supernaturally not by God, but by the Devil. Which is to me, a laughable assertion, since I don't see how the devil would advocate honoring your parents, giving in charity, freeing slaves, destroying the idols, fasting, sending prayers on previous prophets...

But wait, maybe the devil's inspiration was to stop people from believing in the trinity, right Kevin? To make people think Jesus was just a man when he is clearly God! But then why didn't Islam eliminate Christianity in Arabia? Why did it give special protection to Christians and Jews and preserve their ways of lives? Furthermore... it was mostly pagans who converted to Islam in the beginning, wasn't it? Arabia? The Zoroastrians of Persia? Sure there were Arab Christians in bilaadi shaam but again many remained Christian because Islam allowed it.

Just putting some ideas out there, but you don't even do the debating yourself Kevin you rely on copy and paste and posting links. I'm right here, an educated Muslim... you make a claim I have the answers, but you rather post links.

[Kevin007]

How did an illiterate man with no education (especially not in theology), create an entire religion, with detailed knowledge of past abrahamic prophets and messengers, how did he create a Qur'an in exquisite poetry which moved Arabs such as Umar ibn al Khattab (who was a lover of poetry), when Muhammad ص had no history of being a poet? How did he then convert the Quran into 6 different dialects for the different types of Arabs? Some companions having memorized several dialects of the Quran in their entirety?

These are questions non-believers must ask themselves.

There have yet to be any solid naturalistic explanations to how Islam itself was actually formed unless it had divine inspiration. And unlike previous religions there is historical basis for Islam, there are no gaps where historical records were non-existence (like the 100 years or so between Jesus and the gospels due to persecution of the Christians).

So the only option people who choose to remain non-believers have is, it's inspired supernaturally not by God, but by the Devil. Which is to me, a laughable assertion, since I don't see how the devil would advocate honoring your parents, giving in charity, freeing slaves, destroying the idols, fasting, sending prayers on previous prophets...

But wait, maybe the devil's inspiration was to stop people from believing in the trinity, right Kevin? To make people think Jesus was just a man when he is clearly God! But then why didn't Islam eliminate Christianity in Arabia? Why did it give special protection to Christians and Jews and preserve their ways of lives? Furthermore... it was mostly pagans who converted to Islam in the beginning, wasn't it? Arabia? The Zoroastrians of Persia? Sure there were Arab Christians in bilaadi shaam but again many remained Christian because Islam allowed it.

Just putting some ideas out there, but you don't even do the debating yourself Kevin you rely on copy and paste and posting links. I'm right here, an educated Muslim... you make a claim I have the answers, but you rather post links.

I have studied Islam for over 5 years. I have worked with many. My boss was one. I would look at the Koran with him. I live in a city with the biggest Muslim Population in the WORLD outside of the ME.