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Thread: Genetically Modified Organisms Risk Global Ruin, Says Black Swan Author Nassim Taleb

  1. #1

    Genetically Modified Organisms Risk Global Ruin, Says Black Swan Author Nassim Taleb

    Oh boy...

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...id=13012333374

    Finally, our Precautionary Principle (with Application to GMOs) Is on ArXiv (without the math).

    http://arxiv.org/abs/1410.5787

    We present a non-naive version of the Precautionary (PP) that allows us to avoid paranoia and paralysis by confining precaution to specific domains and problems. PP is intended to deal with uncertainty and risk in cases where the absence of evidence and the incompleteness of scientific knowledge carries profound implications and in the presence of risks of "black swans", unforeseen and unforeseable events of extreme consequence. We formalize PP, placing it within the statistical and probabilistic structure of ruin problems, in which a system is at risk of total failure, and in place of risk we use a formal fragility based approach. We make a central distinction between 1) thin and fat tails, 2) Local and systemic risks and place PP in the joint Fat Tails and systemic cases. We discuss the implications for GMOs (compared to Nuclear energy) and show that GMOs represent a public risk of global harm (while harm from nuclear energy is comparatively limited and better characterized). PP should be used to prescribe severe limits on GMOs.

    Genetically Modified Organisms Risk Global Ruin, Says Black Swan Author
    Experts have severely underestimated the risks of genetically modified food, says a group of researchers lead by Nassim Nicholas Taleb
    https://medium.com/the-physics-arxiv...or-e8836fa7d78

    Today, Nassim Nicholas Taleb at New York University and a few pals say that this kind of thinking vastly underestimates the threat posed by genetically modified organisms. “Genetically modified organisms represent a public risk of global harm,” they say. Consequently, this risk should be treated differently from those that only have the potential for local harm. “The precautionary principle should be used to prescribe severe of limits on genetically modified organisms,” they conclude.

    Taleb and co begin by making a clear distinction between risks with consequences that are local and those with consequences that have the potential to cause global ruin. When global harm is possible, an action must be avoided unless there is scientific near-certainty that it is safe. This approach is known as the precautionary principle.
    [...]
    Taleb and co contrast this to the case of genetically modified organisms. They argue that the risk from genetically modified organisms is a potential for widespread impact on the ecosystem and widespread impact on human health. In other words, it is scale independent.
    [...]
    The potential impact of genetically modified organisms on human health is even more worrying. Taleb and co say that the current mechanism for determining whether or not the genetic engineering of particular protein into a plant is safe is woefully inadequate.
    http://arxiv.org/abs/1410.5787

    E. GMOs in summary
    In contrast to nuclear energy (which, as discussed in section
    X-A above, may or may not fall under the PP, depending on
    how and where (how widely) it is implemented), Genetically
    Modified Organisms, GMOs, fall squarely under the PP because
    of their systemic risk. The understanding of the risks is
    very limited and the scope of the impacts are global both due
    to engineering approach replacing an evolutionary approach,
    and due to the use of monoculture.
    Labeling the GMO approach “scientific" betrays a very
    poor—indeed warped—understanding of probabilistic payoffs
    and risk management. A lack of observations of explicit harm
    does not show absence of hidden risks.
    Current models of
    complex systems only contain the subset of reality that is
    accessible to the scientist. Nature is much richer than any
    model of it. To expose an entire system to something whose
    potential harm is not understood because extant models do
    not predict a negative outcome is not justifiable; the relevant
    variables may not have been adequately identified.
    Given the limited oversight that is taking place on GMO
    introductions in the US, and the global impact of those
    introductions, we are precisely in the regime of the ruin
    problem.
    A rational consumer should say: We do not wish
    to pay—or have our descendants pay—for errors made by
    executives of Monsanto, who are financially incentivized to
    focus on quarterly profits rather than long term global impacts.
    We should exert the precautionary principle—our non-naive
    version—simply because we otherwise will discover errors
    with large impacts only after considerable damage.
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock



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  3. #2
    GMO's are literally being forced down our throat.


    Also food is being used as a weapon.

    Last edited by donnay; 10-29-2014 at 02:53 PM.
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  4. #3
    It isn't that hard to eat a diet free of GMO food if you so choose. Eliminate grain, legumes, vegetable oil, and all but grass-fed or wild caught meat and you are just about there without even trying. There might be a vegetable or two that are a problem. I haven't looked into it.

    By the way, I have enormous respect for Taleb. He is a Ron Paul and Hayek supporter.
    The proper concern of society is the preservation of individual freedom; the proper concern of the individual is the harmony of society.

    "Who would be free, themselves must strike the blow." - Byron

    "Who overcomes by force, hath overcome but half his foe." - Milton

  5. #4
    Former Pro-GMO Biotech Scientist Admits GMOs Aren’t Safe, Refutes Claims by Monsanto

    The GMO debate will likely never rest. Therefore, we need more GMO whistleblowers to open people’s eyes about the real dangers of genetically modified foods and crops.

    Published: November 1, 2014 | Authors: Christina Sarich | Natural Society

    For how long will we need to go back and forth in this GMO battle before a sound conclusion is finally met? If you have been following the GMO debate at all, you probably realize that this issue will likely never rest, as numerous studies on both sides of the spectrum (one side showing safety and the other showing danger) will continue to surface. What’s more, this research as well as opinions will be born out of lies or false substantiation. You’ve likely read headlines like these lately and scoffed:

    2000+ Reasons Why GMOs Are Safe To Eat And Environmentally Sustainable

    GMO Opponents Are the Climate Skeptics of the Left

    Study of 1 Billion Animals Finds GMOs Safe

    Or how about comments like this one:

    “I used to think that nothing rivaled the misinformation spewed by climate change skeptics and spinmeisters.

    Then I started paying attention to how anti-GMO campaigners have distorted the science on genetically modified foods. You might be surprised at how successful they’ve been and who has helped them pull it off.”

    Or if you trust one of the most hated companies on the planet, you can go straight to Monsanto’s site and read: An Overview of the Safety and Advantages of GM Foods.

    Monsanto openly admits “after 30” whole “years of research” that they are convinced GMOs are safe. Just one type of pine tree lives more than 5000 years, but yea – Monsanto has all of Mother Nature figured out in its 30 years of tinkering with genes.

    It’s amazing how many people have been boondoggled by biotech or are simply paid shills to keep the misinformation train choo-chooing along.
    Former Biotech Scientist Speaks Out

    In comes Dr. Thierry Vrain, a former GMO biotechnologist who has come out with a lot of information that should open people’s eyes about the real dangers of genetically modified foods and crops.

    Vrain will be the first to admit that Monsanto has conducted a lot of studies showing that GMOs are safe, but he changed his own tune about ten years ago when he started reading scientific journals from other countries.

    Vrain explains:

    “I started paying attention to the flow of published studies coming from Europe, some from prestigious labs and published in prestigious scientific journals, that questioned the impact and safety of engineered food.”

    Vrain was so much a supporter of GMOs (as well as a former biotech scientist for Agriculture Canada) that he used to conduct tours and tell large groups of people all about the greatness of genetically altered crops – but not anymore. Here is what he thinks about his former industry now:

    “I refute the claims of the biotechnology companies that their engineered crops yield more, that they require less pesticide applications, that they have no impact on the environment and of course that they are safe to eat.

    There are a number of scientific studies that have been done for Monsanto by universities in the U.S., Canada, and abroad. Most of these studies are concerned with the field performance of the engineered crops, and of course they find GMOs safe for the environment and therefore safe to eat.”

    Continued...
    “The spirits of darkness are now among us. We have to be on guard so that we may realize what is happening when we encounter them and gain a real idea of where they are to be found. The most dangerous thing you can do in the immediate future will be to give yourself up unconsciously to the influences which are definitely present.” ~ Rudolf Steiner

  6. #5
    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...id=13012333374

    Arguing with biologists about risk is exactly like arguing with George W. Bush about algebraic geometry.
    This is by Mark Buchanan, a physicist.
    http://bv.ms/1vfU8oK

    The Trouble With the Genetically Modified Future
    http://www.bloombergview.com/article...odified-future

    Like many people, I've long wondered about the safety of genetically modified organisms. They've become so ubiquitous that they account for about 80 percent of the corn grown in the U.S., yet we know almost nothing about what damage might ensue if the transplanted genes spread through global ecosystems.

    How can so many smart people, including many scientists, be so sure that there's nothing to worry about? Judging from a new paper by several researchers from New York University, including "The Black Swan" author Nassim Taleb, they can't and shouldn't.

    The researchers focus on the risk of extremely unlikely but potentially devastating events. They argue that there's no easy way to decide whether such risks are worth taking -- it all depends on the nature of the worst-case scenario. Their approach helps explain why some technologies, such as nuclear energy, should give no cause for alarm, while innovations such as GMOs merit extreme caution.

    The researchers fully recognize that fear of bad outcomes can lead to paralysis. Any human action, including inaction, entails risk. That said, the downside risks of some actions may be so hard to predict -- and so potentially bad -- that it is better to be safe than sorry. The benefits, no matter how great, do not merit even a tiny chance of an irreversible, catastrophic outcome.

    For most actions, there are identifiable limits on what can go wrong. Planning can reduce such risks to acceptable levels. When introducing a new medicine, for example, we can monitor the unintended effects and react if too many people fall ill or die. Taleb and his colleagues argue that nuclear power is a similar case: Awful as the sudden meltdown of a large reactor might be, physics strongly suggests that it is exceedingly unlikely to have global and catastrophic consequences.

    Not all risks are so easily defined. In some cases, as Taleb explained in "The Black Swan," experience and ordinary risk analysis are inadequate to understand the probability or scale of a devastating outcome. GMOs are an excellent example. Despite all precautions, genes from modified organisms inevitably invade natural populations, and from there have the potential to spread uncontrollably through the genetic ecosystem. There is no obvious mechanism to localize the damage.

    Biologists still don't understand how genes interact within a single organism, let alone how genes might spread among organisms in complex ecosystems. Only in the last 20 years have scientists realized how much bacteria rely on the so-called horizontal flow of genes -- directly from one bacterium to another, without any reproduction taking place. This seems to be one of the most effective ways that antibiotic resistance spreads among different species. Similar horizontal exchange might be hugely important for plants and animals. No one yet knows.

    In other words, scientists are being irresponsibly short-sighted if they judge the safety of GMOs based on the scattered experience of the past couple decades. It's akin to how, ahead of the 2008 financial crisis, analysts looked at 20 years of rising house prices and assumed they would always go up. The honest approach would be to admit that we understand almost nothing about the safety of GMOs, except that whatever happens is pretty likely to spread.

    Science is at its best when it acknowledges uncertainty and focuses on defining how much can be known. In the case of GMOs, we know far too little for our own good.
    Since he published the paper, he has done several follow-ups on his FedBook page. It's public, so you don't need an account.

    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...id=13012333374

    Some excellent news on GMOs. There is evidence that the GMO "shills" (paid propagandists and lobbyists masquerading as promoters of "scientific awareness") do not have many hits on their sites. They are truly unpopular. These small gangs can attack GMO opponents, & terrorize and bully some lone scientist all they want. I can see that the strategy of GMO companies is to lobby governments and newspapers, which is much easier.
    ----
    People make the mistake of engaging a paid shill. All one should do is *expose* them.
    ---
    Finance people were risk-blind, but were a 1000 times more sophisticated than GMO-biologists (at least finance people can understand an insult). I noticed that the GMO promoters make elementary risk mistakes of showing the "benefits" of GMO (which I don't contest) as if it meant anything about the "risk" of GMOs. This is the standard Russian Roulette fallacy by which someone tells you the probability of getting the bullet is lower *because* the money you win is now larger.
    So far all arguments are fraught with these fallacies: 1) The "evidentiary fallacy" (or Turkey problem, mistaking evidence of absence for absence of evidence), 2) The potato fallacy, 3) The technological salvation fallacy (risk-blind), aside from other similar elementary mistakes.
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  7. #6
    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...id=13012333374

    Was trying to explain the GMO problem to a Hayekian-libertarian: "GMOs are a Soviet-style top-down solution to a bottom-up process". He got it.
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  8. #7
    https://www.facebook.com/permalink.p...id=13012333374



    Explains why you do not decrease tail risks by increasing benefits, you decrease tail risk by decreasing tail risk.

    This is a very short exposition of a fallacy quite generalized, but particularly present in discussions concerning the benefits of GMO. Biologists dealing with probability have a problem with tail risk.
    ----
    Also sows why "Pascal's wager" has nothing to do with risk arguments.
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock

  9. #8
    http://www.zerohedge.com/news/2015-0...ig-fail-system
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/07/14/bu...gmos.html?_r=0

    ...We now find ourselves facing nearly the same five fallacies for our caution against the growth in popularity of G.M.O.s.

    First, there has been a tendency to label anyone who dislikes G.M.O.s as anti-science — and put them in the anti-antibiotics, antivaccine, even Luddite category. There is, of course, nothing scientific about the comparison. Nor is the scholastic invocation of a “consensus” a valid scientific argument.

    Interestingly, there are similarities between arguments that are pro-G.M.O. and snake oil, the latter having relied on a cosmetic definition of science. The charge of “therapeutic nihilism” was leveled at people who contested snake oil medicine at the turn of the 20th century. (At that time, anything with the appearance of sophistication was considered “progress.”)

    Second, we are told that a modified tomato is not different from a naturally occurring tomato. That is wrong: The statistical mechanism by which a tomato was built by nature is bottom-up, by tinkering in small steps (as with the restaurant business, distinct from contagion-prone banks). In nature, errors stay confined and, critically, isolated.

    Third, the technological salvation argument we faced in finance is also present with G.M.O.s, which are intended to “save children by providing them with vitamin-enriched rice.” The argument’s flaw is obvious: In a complex system, we do not know the causal chain, and it is better to solve a problem by the simplest method, and one that is unlikely to cause a bigger problem.

    Fourth, by leading to monoculture — which is the same in finance, where all risks became systemic — G.M.O.s threaten more than they can potentially help. Ireland’s population was decimated by the effect of monoculture during the potato famine. Just consider that the same can happen at a planetary scale.

    Fifth, and what is most worrisome, is that the risk of G.M.O.s are more severe than those of finance. They can lead to complex chains of unpredictable changes in the ecosystem, while the methods of risk management with G.M.O.s — unlike finance, where some effort was made — are not even primitive.

    The G.M.O. experiment, carried out in real time and with our entire food and ecological system as its laboratory, is perhaps the greatest case of human hubris ever. It creates yet another systemic, “too big too fail” enterprise — but one for which no bailouts will be possible when it fails.

    ----------------------------------------------

    Mark Spitznagel is the founder and chief investment officer of Universa Investments and author of “The Dao of Capital: Austrian Investing in a Distorted World.” Nassim Nicholas Taleb is distinguished scientific adviser at Universa Investments, author of “The Black Swan” and distinguished professor of risk engineering at New York University School of Engineering.
    Also!:

    Rand Paul Names Hedge Fund Chief Mark Spitznagel as Economic Adviser
    http://www.nytimes.com/2015/06/20/bu...c-adviser.html

    Nice.
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock



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  11. #9
    Quote Originally Posted by Acala View Post
    It isn't that hard to eat a diet free of GMO food if you so choose. Eliminate grain, legumes, vegetable oil, and all but grass-fed or wild caught meat and you are just about there without even trying. There might be a vegetable or two that are a problem. I haven't looked into it..
    False.

    Just about all or most processed food in the US has some GMO in it. Anything with corn or corn syrup corn starch etc- which is almost everything. Almost anything with sugar - including but not limited to candy bars I just found that out - looking at a package of M&M's from the UK- then calling Reeses myself because I had some Reeses brand brownie mux- all Reeses products have GMO sugar, Many things have soybean oil in them and that's GMO.

    It's almost impossible to avoid unless one buys 100% organic. It's outrageous and too bad more Americans aren't ticked off about it. A person in Ukraine knows more about what they stuff into their mouth than the average US citizen.

  12. #10
    bump
    Based on the idea of natural rights, government secures those rights to the individual by strictly negative intervention, making justice costless and easy of access; and beyond that it does not go. The State, on the other hand, both in its genesis and by its primary intention, is purely anti-social. It is not based on the idea of natural rights, but on the idea that the individual has no rights except those that the State may provisionally grant him. It has always made justice costly and difficult of access, and has invariably held itself above justice and common morality whenever it could advantage itself by so doing.
    --Albert J. Nock



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