Orthodox Church in America: God is love

[heavenlyboy34]

Sure I did, and you know it.

Post#50.

Natch. Satan rules the world because he chose to oppose God. ("Satan" literally means "to obstruct/oppose") The fallen world is the place to where God banished him for this.

[Ronin Truth]

Bible is chocked full of paradoxes. "God is love" highlights the irrationality from which these paradoxes arise. Through reason and study you can reconcile the text of the Word with the spirit of the Word to understand these paradoxes, but you will never be able to make all the text logically consistent. Reality isn't built that way and any attempts to codify reality into some logically consistent framework will fail.

Thanks!

Simplifying.

Why does Satan rule the Earth? And the answer is NOT because the Bible says so.

[wizardwatson]

Thanks!

Simplifying.

Why does Satan rule the Earth? And the answer is NOT because the Bible says so.

Satan is the epitome of the personification of evil. Evil is allowed to flourish to allow it to be eradicated. Evil is allowed to exist in order for us to have knowledge of God by demonstration of his relation to it.

Our likeness to God is that we also have knowledge of evil. We are different than God in that we succumb to it while he eradicates it.

Simone Weil said "Evil is the form which God's mercy takes in this world." That basically evil and its result, affliction, serve to drive us out of ourselves towards God. If you see this with respect to the fact that throughout history those who serve God most are often the most afflicted it makes sense.

Isaiah 45:7 I form the light, and create darkness: I make peace, and create evil: I the LORD do all these things.

It takes study to get a solid idea of how God can be good and be the guy who created evil.

Remember that this is like this in THIS world. This world is temporary.

[wizardwatson]

One of the things I find amazing about Christianity is that while it's deep and covers so many aspects of human behavior both physically and mentally it is also very easy to condense.

I believe that one of the reasons for this is that it's meant for children to understand. No child is going to give me anything but blank stares at what I posted above. But explaining Jesus dying for our sins, Satan controlling the Earth and corrupting people, heaven/hell, etc. is not difficult and doesn't make it any less true. It is rich enough for those who want a deeper understanding and simple enough to explain to a child.

[jmdrake]

But whoops! Where does everything flow from then? It comes from Jesus right? If Jesus IS wisdom--then where else do all of the divine attributes come from?

Jesus is also power. So wisdom could have just as easily flowed from power as power could have flowed from wisdom. Jesus is also love. So wisdom could have just as easily flowed from love as love could have flowed from power. The source of your error is that for no explicable reason you think the statement that Jesus is wisdom is different from the statement that Jesus is power or that God is love.

He is either everything personified as wisdom or He's what you're attempting to say apart from wisdom.

Who said anything about Jesus being "apart from wisdom"? My claim isn't that Jesus is "apart from wisdom". My claim is that Jesus is equally wisdom and love and power. Your own sources support that claim.

I bet I could make more money as a lawyer than you could.

You probably could. I was just in court the other week over a lawyer that had overcharged his client. The judge ultimately scolded the lawyer for his dishonest and shady book keeping and said the other attorney could face disciplinary action. But he still awarded this sorry attorney $3,000 of the $6,000 he was asking for. I only charged the client $200. I did at least $1,000 worth of work but I only charged what I knew the client could afford. Who would you say was the better lawyer?

[jmdrake]

Question Terry. Do you believe that infants are full of God's wisdom? How about the unborn? How about animals like dogs or gerbils? How about plants?

Edit: And by "full of God's wisdom" I don't mean "evidence of God's wisdom" like the sun or other inanimate objects that God has created are evidence of His wisdom. I mean full of God's wisdom to the point of being able to make wise decisions.

[jmdrake]

Thanks!

Simplifying.

Why does Satan rule the Earth? And the answer is NOT because the Bible says so.

Who says Satan rules the Earth?

Daniel 4:32 And they shall drive thee from men, and thy dwelling shall be with the beasts of the field: they shall make thee to eat grass as oxen, and seven times shall pass over thee, until thou know that the most High ruleth in the kingdom of men, and giveth it to whomsoever he will.

[Ronin Truth]

One of the things I find amazing about Christianity is that while it's deep and covers so many aspects of human behavior both physically and mentally it is also very easy to condense.

I believe that one of the reasons for this is that it's meant for children to understand. No child is going to give me anything but blank stares at what I posted above. But explaining Jesus dying for our sins, Satan controlling the Earth and corrupting people, heaven/hell, etc. is not difficult and doesn't make it any less true. It is rich enough for those who want a deeper understanding and simple enough to explain to a child.

But Jesus said, Suffer little children, and forbid them not, to come unto me: for of such is the kingdom of heaven.

[Terry1]

Jesus is also power. So wisdom could have just as easily flowed from power as power could have flowed from wisdom. Jesus is also love. So wisdom could have just as easily flowed from love as love could have flowed from power. The source of your error is that for no explicable reason you think the statement that Jesus is wisdom is different from the statement that Jesus is power or that God is love.

Well you're the one who made the statement that Jesus was more than wisdom--not me here in this quote of yours. My argument was if Jesus is wisdom--how can He be anymore than He already is? Hence your confusion about who He is and where all of the divine attribute flow/come from.

Good. I'm glad you feel confirmed. I'm not sure in what exactly. The teaching you provided clearly states that Christ is more than just wisdom. Again from your latest source:

But here [what] we have to say very clearly is, according to Orthodox Christianity, there is no masculine and no feminine in God at all. God is God. God is not like anything in creation. God is beyond even being. You could even say that God is not being. As Gregory Palamas said, “If God is, I am not. If I am, God is not.” If we call God “being,” then I should not be called “being”; but if I am called “being,” like “human being,” then you can’t think of God as being. And, of course, in Scripture, God and all that belongs to God—all his qualities, his wisdom, exactly, his love, his truth, his power, his glory, his splendor, his peace—they are all appropriate to God, and they are all not like anything else. There’s nothing comparable to them in heaven [or] on earth.

According to your church's teachings God's qualities include His wisdom, His love, His truth, His power, His glory, His splendor, His peace. That's what I've been saying all along.

So you're actually arguing with the teaching itself that then tells you this and attempting to create a contradiction where there is none because you didn't read the teaching all the way through and didn't understand it either. I can't help you with that.

"There is no doubt at all that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Wisdom of God is Jesus. The Wisdom of God in human form, personified, is the God-man Jesus. And everything that Jesus is in human form, we believe he is and possesses, so to speak, in divine form, before the Incarnation. So he is the eternal divine Wisdom of God who takes human form and reveals this divine Wisdom to us in human form. So he is the Wisdom of God."

Who said anything about Jesus being "apart from wisdom"? My claim isn't that Jesus is "apart from wisdom". My claim is that Jesus is equally wisdom and love and power. Your own sources support that claim.

When you made the claim that Jesus was "more than wisdom" and that teaching is telling you that Jesus is uncreated wisdom and all of the divine attributes being then personified in Jesus come from that--then you are arguing with the teaching basically telling you that the wisdom of God--being Jesus Himself precedes the divine attributes being uncreated wisdom. The divine attributes are a result of the wisdom being Jesus and power of God.

Without Jesus/wisdom--there are no divine attributes.

You probably could. I was just in court the other week over a lawyer that had overcharged his client. The judge ultimately scolded the lawyer for his dishonest and shady book keeping and said the other attorney could face disciplinary action. But he still awarded this sorry attorney $3,000 of the $6,000 he was asking for. I only charged the client $200. I did at least $1,000 worth of work but I only charged what I knew the client could afford. Who would you say was the better lawyer?

I'm sure God will bless you for your contribution as well. I went through a two year long divorce that sucked the life out of my business, bank account and savings and at the same time had a superfund lawsuit in process over the city using part of my farm to dump sewage sludge on without my knowledge until I noticed after my horses started dying off--all with organ, kidney failure. I had to literally prove my own case by sneaking with a video camera at 3AM in the morning through four feet of sludge that hadn't settled.

I won my case against the entire city in front of a federal judge and caught the mayor in a bold face lie at the same time before we presented the video that proved it. We got them on 13 counts and I could have bankrupt the entire city if I wanted to, but I didn't and settled for a clean up and sale of the farm at fair market value, plus compensation for my dead horses that drank the sludge water. I made front page in the news on that one.

My divorce lawyer made out like a bandit though after a two year long divorce. You don't have to tell me--about lawyers. You can't live with them or without them--sad, but true. Thankfully the enviro firm that handled my case were top notch and I became very good friends with one of them during the course of it as he was a Christian. It wasn't easy--but it was worth it.

My ex-husband is dead--may the miserable abusive, cheating, bastard rest in peace. That's what he was--couldn't call him anything else.

[jmdrake]

Well you're the one who made the statement that Jesus was more than wisdom--not me here in this quote of yours. My argument was if Jesus is wisdom--how can He be anymore than He already is? Hence your confusion about who He is and where all of the divine attribute flow/come from.

Actually that's not "my quote". That's the quote from the Bible and from all of your sources. And at one point you admitted that Jesus is the personification of wisdom, power and love. Re-read your you words in post # 51. Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality.

And from your source in post #38.

Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality. He is the personification in human form of God’s love, of God’s truth, of God’s beauty, of God’s power, of God’s peace, and, so too, of God’s Wisdom.

So you're actually arguing with the teaching itself that then tells you this and attempting to create a contradiction where there is none because you didn't read the teaching all the way through and didn't understand it either. I can't help you with that.

I'm not arguing with "the teaching". I'm arguing with your addition to it.

"There is no doubt at all that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Wisdom of God is Jesus. The Wisdom of God in human form, personified, is the God-man Jesus. And everything that Jesus is in human form, we believe he is and possesses, so to speak, in divine form, before the Incarnation. So he is the eternal divine Wisdom of God who takes human form and reveals this divine Wisdom to us in human form. So he is the Wisdom of God."

From that same source: Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality. He is the personification in human form of God’s love, of God’s truth, of God’s beauty, of God’s power, of God’s peace, and, so too, of God’s Wisdom.

Your source says Jesus is the personification of God's love, truth, power, peace and wisdom. Wisdom is just one of a list of qualities. Nowhere in your own source does it lift the wisdom attribute above any other attribute nor does it treat the wisdom attribute any differently than any other attribute not does it say any other attribute flows from wisdom. That's what you concluded from/added to the teaching.

When you made the claim that Jesus was "more than wisdom" and that teaching is telling you that Jesus is uncreated wisdom and all of the divine attributes being then personified in Jesus come from that--then you are arguing with the teaching basically telling you that the wisdom of God--being Jesus Himself precedes the divine attributes being uncreated wisdom. The divine attributes are a result of the wisdom being Jesus and power of God.

The parts in bold are not in the teachings. Those are your own conclusions.

Without Jesus/wisdom--there are no divine attributes.

The teaching you are quoting doesn't say that.

I'm sure God will bless you for your contribution as well. I went through a two year long divorce that sucked the life out of my business, bank account and savings and at the same time had a superfund lawsuit in process over the city using part of my farm to dump sewage sludge on without my knowledge until I noticed after my horses started dying off--all with organ, kidney failure. I had to literally prove my own case by sneaking with a video camera at 3AM in the morning through four feet of sludge that hadn't settled.

I won my case against the entire city in front of a federal judge and caught the mayor in a bold face lie at the same time before we presented the video that proved it. We got them on 13 counts and I could have bankrupt the entire city if I wanted to, but I didn't and settled for a clean up and sale of the farm at fair market value, plus compensation for my dead horses that drank the sludge water. I made front page in the news on that one.

My divorce lawyer made out like a bandit though after a two year long divorce. You don't have to tell me--about lawyers. You can't live with them or without them--sad, but true. Thankfully the enviro firm that handled my case were top notch and I became very good friends with one of them during the course of it as he was a Christian. It wasn't easy--but it was worth it.

Thank you. The case I was talking about started off as a divorce case. My client fired his attorney because the attorney charged him $2,000 initially, didn't give him a bill for over a year, then came back and said he owed $2,000 more. The extra $6,000 he was claiming were for interest and fees for collecting the debt after he was fired. Oh, and part of the $2,000 was for a survey. He had told my client the survey was for $450. My client paid that. Then he came back and said the survey company had been dishonest and now claimed the survey was $875. So he tried to make my client eat the difference. Really shady character. He came within 74 votes of becoming a judge.

[jmdrake]

Question Terry. Do you believe that infants are full of God's wisdom? How about the unborn? How about animals like dogs or gerbils? How about plants?

Edit: And by "full of God's wisdom" I don't mean "evidence of God's wisdom" like the sun or other inanimate objects that God has created are evidence of His wisdom. I mean full of God's wisdom to the point of being able to make wise decisions.

Oh, you may have missed this question Terry. Please answer. Do you believe that infants are full of God's wisdom as in the ability to make decisions for or against God? How about the unborn? How about animals like dogs or gerbils? How about plants?

[moostraks]

Really? Well, you certainly fooled me and probably a lot of other folks with this thread then, which was just a few months ago. So have you converted to Orthodoxy then and still with a disdain for good works? That's not good.

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=Quaker+quotes

Uh, I still update that thread and will continue to, just like the native american thread, and added things to threads of TER's occasionally, also thought about making one for general nature wisdom, and have posted quotes by Universalists a number of times, as well as by Anabaptists. The Quakers are an easy thread because of the number of journals with wisdom in them. I post what inspires me and I think might benefit others. Just because you have a need to make superfluous connections between issues that are not connected does not mean you can demand them to be true. My church is those who see Love and embrace Love, and you cannot command me to accept a title and creed you want to force down my throat just so you can ridicule me or so that I may share the beauty I appreciate in their teaching.

Also, been a bit busy but I knew something sounded funny about the jag you were on about Quakers and sola scriptura-would not matter, and that is one of the reasons I identify with them, because there is no Quaker Creed. So:



And as for your lies about me regarding good works, to Him goes the glory for regarding the good works:

Galatians 2: 20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

~~~peace on your path

[Terry1]

Oh, you may have missed this question Terry. Please answer. Do you believe that infants are full of God's wisdom as in the ability to make decisions for or against God? How about the unborn? How about animals like dogs or gerbils? How about plants?

I will answer, but right now I'm in the middle of making the hubs favorite dish that he begged me to make. It's my scamorza pasta in sauce. I don't know if I'll get to tonight or not. Gotta catch my onions and garlic cooking in the pan now.

[moostraks]

You have no clue if you're attempting to say that my practice of good works tie me to any form of gnosticism with regard to the Orthodox teaching I provided. This is you fabricating a lie against me in order to support your own argument if you want to call it that. Actually, what you've stated is simply nothing more than a slew of contradictions of your faith, your beliefs, my beliefs and what that teaching actually said.

If you're going to continue to use the Orthodox faith and quotes to support your views, then you shouldn't be using the fact that I actually practice my faith as in good works against me. Do you understand that?

I understand that you've been caught in so many contradictions already that they're too numerous to mention at this point and that you should stop while your behind.

It's not my reputation that's at stake here. I could care less what you think or believe at this point and you did that yourself.

Here you go again:

Gnostics believed that in order to acquire salvation one must possess a certain knowledge, or gnosis, which must be delivered to a person by a messenger of light. However, to receive this knowledge, one must be trying to reach beyond the evil, dark, material, physical earth and body toward that of the good, light, immaterial, and spiritual worlds. The indwelling spark must be awakened from its terrestrial slumber by the saving knowledge that comes "from without." Jesus is one of the most fundamental "awakeners" of this knowledge.

http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religio...Gnosticism.htm

Sounds just like what you are pushing with your over attachment to wisdom as a primary definer of creation and faith. Gave you this link yestersday and stated why I was making this claim. How is what you are saying different other than you claim this to be a standard Orthodox practice and not gnostic?

I have not contradicted my faith at all. I'm not the one posting random links that I have recanted nor am I the one who is playing games with running away from the original discussion and slinging insults and lies to keep the other person busy defending their character. I would not have brought up the gnostic issue if it weren't exactly like what it sounds you are claiming. I asked you yesterday how it was different and instead of responding you became melodramatic and exited stage right, only to return today and act like this is some random slur against you.

So, explain what is different and clear up the confusion. I don't care if you are a gnostic. I could care less what label another person is applying to themselves. But if you want to claim a label, then it would help if it was identifiable to the beliefs held by others within it. Yours, as yet, has not been shown to be typical to Orthodox teaching from what links you have provided nor have you reasonably addressed the quotes that seem to contradict your position that I have provided. No one else has waded in and agreed with your argument. Maybe your church is an outlier?

You may drop the threats and insults. By now you should have established it is an ineffective strategy.

[Terry1]

Uh, I still update that thread and will continue to, just like the native american thread, and added things to threads of TER's occasionally, also thought about making one for general nature wisdom, and have posted quotes by Universalists a number of times, as well as by Anabaptists. The Quakers are an easy thread because of the number of journals with wisdom in them. I post what inspires me and I think might benefit others. Just because you have a need to make superfluous connections between issues that are not connected does not mean you can demand them to be true. My church is those who see Love and embrace Love, and you cannot command me to accept a title and creed you want to force down my throat just so you can ridicule me or so that I may share the beauty I appreciate in their teaching.

Also, been a bit busy but I knew something sounded funny about the jag you were on about Quakers and sola scriptura-would not matter, and that is one of the reasons I identify with them, because there is no Quaker Creed. So:



And as for your lies about me regarding good works, to Him goes the glory for regarding the good works:

Galatians 2: 20“I have been crucified with Christ; and it is no longer I who live, but Christ lives in me; and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by faith in the Son of God, who loved me and gave Himself up for me.

~~~peace on your path

Yeah--I got your "peace on your path" after accusing me of lying when you're the one who's been on a mission here to claim that somehow I'm practicing gnostiscism. You borrowed that lie from Nang didn't you, she hounded me with that one also. Ask my Orthodox brethren if they've ever got that from anything I've ever posted. Don't post any more Orthodox beliefs as if you subscribe to them, because you're an affront to the Orthodox faith by subscribing to sola scripture at any level which you called "per-say". That may be the reason some of the Orthodox have shunned you and rightfully so.

I don't think you even realize, like Nang didn't--just how many levels and layers that there are to the belief in gnostiscism. You don't even realize what you're saying. You're just shooting off with the mouth accusing with baseless platitudes while taking about something you know nothing about.

Try to define "gnostiscism". You can't define it and if you can't define it--you can't accuse anyone of it. Now run to google--LOL

[Terry1]

Here you go again:
http://www2.kenyon.edu/Depts/Religio...Gnosticism.htm

Sounds just like what you are pushing with your over attachment to wisdom as a primary definer of creation and faith. Gave you this link yestersday and stated why I was making this claim. How is what you are saying different other than you claim this to be a standard Orthodox practice and not gnostic?

I have not contradicted my faith at all. I'm not the one posting random links that I have recanted nor am I the one who is playing games with running away from the original discussion and slinging insults and lies to keep the other person busy defending their character. I would not have brought up the gnostic issue if it weren't exactly like what it sounds you are claiming. I asked you yesterday how it was different and instead of responding you became melodramatic and exited stage right, only to return today and act like this is some random slur against you.

So, explain what is different and clear up the confusion. I don't care if you are a gnostic. I could care less what label another person is applying to themselves. But if you want to claim a label, then it would help if it was identifiable to the beliefs held by others within it. Yours, as yet, has not been shown to be typical to Orthodox teaching from what links you have provided nor have you reasonably addressed the quotes that seem to contradict your position that I have provided. No one else has waded in and agreed with your argument. Maybe your church is an outlier?

You may drop the threats and insults. By now you should have established it is an ineffective strategy.

Well--you've earned your status as "ignored".

[Terry1]

Oh, you may have missed this question Terry. Please answer. Do you believe that infants are full of God's wisdom as in the ability to make decisions for or against God? How about the unborn? How about animals like dogs or gerbils? How about plants?

Got few minutes here before that pasta's done baking. I believe that the evidence of creation itself is the wisdom of God because wisdom is uncreated--the same as Jesus.

There's evidence of wisdom in everything that's created, but people can not understand the wisdom of God until they've been renewed in Christ--because He is wisdom. You have to have the wisdom of God before you can understand the knowledge of God. They go hand in hand and work together, the same as grace and faith do. God's grace being the wisdom and power and Jesus incarnate the same as in faith and the wisdom of God incarnate.

[moostraks]

Yeah--I got your "peace on your path" after accusing me of lying when you're the one who's been on a mission here to claim that somehow I'm practicing gnostiscism. You borrowed that lie from Nang didn't you, she hounded me with that one also. Ask my Orthodox brethren if they've ever got that from anything I've ever posted. Don't post any more Orthodox beliefs as if you subscribe to them, because you're an affront to the Orthodox faith by subscribing to sola scripture at any level which you called "per-say". That may be the reason some of the Orthodox have shunned you and rightfully so.

I don't think you even realize, like Nang didn't--just how many levels and layers that there are to the belief in gnostiscism. You don't even realize what you're saying. You're just shooting off with the mouth accusing with baseless platitudes while taking about something you know nothing about.

Try to define "gnostiscism". You can't define it and if you can't define it--you can't accuse anyone of it. Now run to google--LOL

I gave what definition I saw given at the link and asked how it was different from what you are claiming. Seems as if you are unable so you continue with the diversions. Are there different degrees and beliefs within Gnosticism, seems to be so. If you recall, I also asked if any Gnostics here were interested I would curious to know how close or distant what you were going on about with regards to wisdom that it was to a gnostic belief.

It wasn't a slur, but an observation, based on what appears to be parallel positions on enlightenment. Maybe nang accused you of it because it sounds so much like it to her too? I sure don't remember her saying it but I usually skim your posts because of the tone of them makes my stomach knot up and those with nang were horrible from both sides.

Ya know I put myself out there when you were dug in with lily. I really thought it was a typical belief that was misunderstood. It was only just recently I have realized how different you seem to be emphasizing some things that are not so typical, and then ridiculing others as if they have no right to disagree. Hold on to whatever beliefs you care to, but at least be reasonable enough to show evidence for why your position is more credible than another person's when you are ripping them apart for false knowledge. All you've done is be hateful and refused reasonable questions of the position you are pushing.

You are still hung up on wringing that per say out as some form of agreement? I clarified in other thread that I don't want it demanded of me and that's what per say referred to but you just have to rant as though you can command me to hold to sola scriptura as my creed. Then after falsely ascribing me that position, you tell me I am not entitled to other resources for debate purposes. Who made you queen?

The Orthodox are shunning me? That's news to me. Seems as though you need to be a church member for shunning to be effective. Since I know what the opinion of non-church members are of those who choose not to move forward with Orthodoxy, you'd think you'd have some clue that the beliefs that prevent me from being Orthodox must be pretty serious or I don't give a crap about anything spiritual because of the consequences of thumbing one's nose at the one, true church if one believes it to be? Committing to a church creed ain't an ego trip for me. I take it pretty serious and refuse to sign on for stuff in hopes it will all just work out later.

[moostraks]

Well--you've earned your status as "ignored".

So you can't answer the questions then and somehow it's always someone else's fault?

[TER]

Since I know what the opinion of non-church members are of those who choose not to move forward with Orthodoxy,

Whose opinion specifically?

you'd think you'd have some clue that the beliefs that prevent me from being Orthodox must be pretty serious or I don't give a crap about anything spiritual because of the consequences of thumbing one's nose at the one, true church if one believes it to be?

Which Orthodox Christian here has condemned you?

Committing to a church creed ain't an ego trip for me.

Well said. If anything, it is the renunciation of the ego and indeed crucifying ourselves to the world, including our own wills.

I take it pretty serious and refuse to sign on for stuff in hopes it will all just work out later.

But that is the definition of faith my friend.

What specifically are the serious obstacles which block you from Orthodoxy? What beliefs of the Church do your take umbrage with which have not been explained to you by the Church?

Forgive me for asking, but perhaps your friends here can better understand you and know you and thus grow closer in communion with you if you shared with us your thoughts on these important matters.

PS: none of the Orthodox have shunned you here. What is being shunned by them is the tone and hostility in this thread. Think of it as the Orthodox fasting from the thread. Disrespectfulness serves no useful purpose.

[Terry1]

I gave what definition I saw given at the link and asked how it was different from what you are claiming. Seems as if you are unable so you continue with the diversions. Are there different degrees and beliefs within Gnosticism, seems to be so. If you recall, I also asked if any Gnostics here were interested I would curious to know how close or distant what you were going on about with regards to wisdom that it was to a gnostic belief.

Because you didn't read and fully comprehend what the author was talking about. He wasn't promoting sophiology. Now I've already explained this to you twice and you won't stop harping on it. In fact the author goes on to explain the difference between sophiology and the Orthodox faith--but you didn't see that did you?
Here in this quote below--you completely blow the authors teaching away by stating this time that the teaching was nothing more than a "long rambling position" as if it's not yours. That's fine if it isn't, but it is the position of the church which you just don't seem to grasp. Either you're not understanding it or being intellectually dishonest. Gotta be one or the other.

Then you further go on that I've elevated wisdom above all other aspects--which is exactly what that teaching was saying as well--that Jesus is wisdom and all divine attributes come from Him as well as wisdom itself! Then you go further again to say that because I've elevated wisdom above "all other aspects" that I've connected it to good works--*grin*--which again--is what the church teaches are good works. Now either you are not understanding the teaching and the church position or you're being intellectually dishonest, which I do believe it's both with you.

Here's your own quote blowing the authors teaching away as if it's just some "long rambling position" and nothing more.

Originally Posted by moostraks
I read it all and it is basically a long, rambling position on His Wisdom. The part where you have elevated it above all other aspects and connected it to good works is on you.

[TER]

The debate topic is interesting, but the debate so far has been people looking for fights. Frankly, it has left a lot to be desired. Perhaps we can all just chill out a little bit? People are screaming past each other, creating arguments where there does not need to be any. And in the meantime I see people who aren't Eastern Orthodox giving catechism on the beliefs of the Orthodox Church.

Being one of the few Orthodox Christians in the forum, here is my contribution on the topic for what it's worth. This is, as far as I know, the Patristic teachings of the Church. I am happy to be corrected.

Christ is the Wisdom of God. He is the Power of God. He is the Image and Word and Son of God. He is the Reason of God, the Logos and Tao of God. In Him and through Him all things were created, the entire cosmos and the heavenly angels were created. He is the very creative Word of God. The Light and Life and Love of God, the same essence and glory and honor of God, together with the all holy and live-giving Spirit.

Everything the Father has, He gives it to His Son. Whatever the Son has, He offers it to the Father. The same with the Spirit. This is the fulfillment of the Eucharist, the actualization of true thanksgiving in the real-ness of time in the Kingdom of God. The mystery of God whose essence would best be described as self-giving love. Where the One is, so the Other, just as where two are gathered, so is Christ. Not alone, or individualistic, but in community in the denominator of divine love. This is the manifestation of what fullness of love is, which is in trinity, the all-encompassing principle of eucharistic love, which is true unity and which grants us eternal life.

The only difference between the Persons of the Trinity is in their relation to eachother, as the Father being the Begettor, the Son as Begotten, and the Holy Spirit as Proceeding. Thus the Spirit of God is the Power of God just as the Son is as well as the Father. The only difference is in how they relate to one another, the Father as the Source, the Son as the Begotten and Incarnate, and the Spirit as the One Who proceeds and illuminates. The divine economy of the Triune God. And all of this theology is using mere human words and language, knowing these do not give full justice, and acknowledging that the mind of man alone cannot but scratch the surface on God, Whose gifts and knowledge are ineffable and too holy to describe, and leaving us bowing down before God and the holy mystery of God.

Our transformation and transfiguration into the life and joy of the Kingdom begins with our faith in Christ and our constant remembrance and worship of God. We partake of the divine nature and live in the Kingdom of Heaven even while in this world, in the Pentecostal joy of the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit has been sent as promised. He is here, now, everywhere though we don't often discern Him. The assembly of believers have become the temple of the Holy Spirit. The Bride is being prepared. And Heaven and earth rejoice, singing "Holy, Holy, Holy are Thou!" Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit!

[Terry1]

The debate topic is interesting, but the debate so far has been people looking for fights. Frankly, it has left a lot to be desired. Perhaps we can all just chill out a little bit? People are screaming past each other, creating arguments where there does not need to be any. And in the meantime I see people who aren't Eastern Orthodox giving catechism on the beliefs of the Orthodox Church.

Being one of the few Orthodox Christians in the forum, here is my contribution on the topic for what it's worth. This is, as far as I know, the Patristic teachings of the Church. I am happy to be corrected.

Christ is the Wisdom of God. He is the Power of God. He is the Image and Word and Son of God. He is the Reason of God, the Logos and Tao of God. In Him and through Him all things were created, the entire cosmos and the heavenly angels were created. He is the very creative Word of God. The Light and Life of God, the same essence and glory and honor of God, together with the all holy and live-giving Spirit.

Everything the Father has, He gives it to His Son. Whatever the Son has, He offers it to the Father. The same with the Spirit. This is the fulfillment of the Eucharist, the actualization of true thanksgiving in the real-ness of time in the Kingdom of God. The mystery of God whose essence would best be described as self-giving love. Where the One is, so the Other, just as where two are gathered, so is Christ. Not alone, or individualistic, but in community in the denominator of divine love. This is the manifestation of what fullness of love is, which is in trinity, the all-encompassing principle of eucharistic love, which is true unity and which grants us eternal life.

The only difference between the Persons of the Trinity is in their relation to eachother, as the Father being the Begettor, the Son as Begotten, and the Holy Spirit as Proceeding. Thus the Spirit of God is the Power of God just as the Son is as well as the Father. The only difference in how they relate to one another, the Father as the Source, the Son as the Begotten and Incarnate, and the Spirit as the One Who proceeds and illuminates. The divine economy of the Triune God. And all of these theology using mere human words and language, knowing these do not give full justice, and acknowledging that the mind of man alone cannot the surface about God, Whose gifts and knowledge are ineffable and too holy to describe, and leaving us bowing down before God and the holy mystery of God.

Our transformation and transfiguration into the life and joy of Christ begins with our faith and our constant remembrance and worship of God. We partake of the divine nature and live in the Kingdom of Heaven even while in this world, in the Pentecostal joy of the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit was been sent as promised! The assembly of believers have become the temple of the Holy Spirit! And Heaven and earth rejoice, singing "Holy, Holy, Holy are Thou!" Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit!

You certainly said it a heck of a lot better than I ever could.

[Kevin007]

It stands to reason in my mind that without understanding in wisdom first and foremost of what the love of God is --one can't recognize the source of that "love" and what it is.

To say that Love comes before wisdom is the same as saying that anything can be the essence of love without the wisdom of God to know the difference. So speaking in terms of biblical logic--wisdom must come first and reconciles with the church teaching-- that everything flows from wisdom first. Because wisdom is the embodiment and essence of the revelation of God in Christ that allows and gives life and meaning to every spiritual attribute and gift that follows and flows from wisdom being Jesus Himself.

I wish your "wisdom" would follow your own advice in regards to salvation. Salvation comes before works. You cannot build salvation upon works- its built upon Jesus.

[jmdrake]

I will answer, but right now I'm in the middle of making the hubs favorite dish that he begged me to make. It's my scamorza pasta in sauce. I don't know if I'll get to tonight or not. Gotta catch my onions and garlic cooking in the pan now.

Cool. Please post the recipe.

Got few minutes here before that pasta's done baking. I believe that the evidence of creation itself is the wisdom of God because wisdom is uncreated--the same as Jesus.

There's evidence of wisdom in everything that's created, but people can not understand the wisdom of God until they've been renewed in Christ--because He is wisdom. You have to have the wisdom of God before you can understand the knowledge of God. They go hand in hand and work together, the same as grace and faith do. God's grace being the wisdom and power and Jesus incarnate the same as in faith and the wisdom of God incarnate.

Thanks for answering the question. There is a reason why I specifically worded it the way I did. I'm not talking about evidence of God's wisdom like you see in the sun or the moon or in the water cycle. I'm talking about understanding that seems to be unique to humans. (Some people think animals have that kind of understanding, so that's why I added in plants). And here's my point. Everything that I mentioned, toddlers, plants, animals, the unborn, have been scientifically proven to respond to love. Love comes first and foremost. I say this in response to something you said earlier.

It stands to reason in my mind that without understanding in wisdom first and foremost of what the love of God is --one can't recognize the source of that "love" and what it is.

To say that Love comes before wisdom is the same as saying that anything can be the essence of love without the wisdom of God to know the difference. So speaking in terms of biblical logic--wisdom must come first and reconciles with the church teaching-- that everything flows from wisdom first. Because wisdom is the embodiment and essence of the revelation of God in Christ that allows and gives life and meaning to every spiritual attribute and gift that follows and flows from wisdom being Jesus Himself.

But nature suggests that love indeed comes before wisdom. In fact without love a human baby will not grow into wisdom. Proverbs says "Foolishness is bound to the heart of a child". Paul said "When I became a man I put away childish things". And yet Jesus said "Unless you become like a little child, you will in no wise enter into the kingdom of God." What's the reason for this apparent contradiction? As children grow, they tend to become wiser while they also tend to become less loving. The man filled with the most wisdom of God ever, besides Jesus, was Solomon. Yet Solomon led the entire nation of Israel into idolatry. His apostasy was so bad that God told him he would lose most of his kingdom. Rather than submit to God's judgement, Solomon tried to have the man God would give 10 tribes to killed. Solomon seems to have ultimately repented (I believe Ecclesiastes was his repentance though some debate that), but what a waste in the meantime! David, on the other hand, is known more for his love for God. Yes David royally screwed up with his adultery and murder, but he never chased after other gods the way Solomon did. If all of God's attributes flowed from His wisdom, it would stand to reason that Solomon would have had more of God's attributes than did David.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Just like plant or an animal or even and unborn child can react to love of another human being, a foolish darkened hearted sinner can react to the love of God that He extends to us before we are wise enough to understand it.

[jmdrake]

Hello TER. The reason the catechism got involved is because Terry believed the reason I disagreed with her on the idea that Wisdom is the attribute of God that all other attributes flow from is because of my "false doctrine" of "sola scriptura". But frankly I don't see the "all attributes of God come from Wisdom" in scripture, the EO catechism or in your response here. And how did the topic arise in the first place? I take Paul literally when he says that it is God that works in us to both will and to do His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13). Terry disagreed with my "God wills us to want to do His will, though He allows us to resist Him doing that" position and claimed that what the Holy Spirit gives us is "wisdom and knowledge" and we do the rest. I disagreed and said the Holy Spirit gives us more than just "wisdom and knowledge", she came back with the "everything flows from Wisdom" argument, and here we are. I won't point fingers at who started the shouting bit, but I did think you needed to know the context of the discussion if you didn't know already.

The debate topic is interesting, but the debate so far has been people looking for fights. Frankly, it has left a lot to be desired. Perhaps we can all just chill out a little bit? People are screaming past each other, creating arguments where there does not need to be any. And in the meantime I see people who aren't Eastern Orthodox giving catechism on the beliefs of the Orthodox Church.

Being one of the few Orthodox Christians in the forum, here is my contribution on the topic for what it's worth. This is, as far as I know, the Patristic teachings of the Church. I am happy to be corrected.

Christ is the Wisdom of God. He is the Power of God. He is the Image and Word and Son of God. He is the Reason of God, the Logos and Tao of God. In Him and through Him all things were created, the entire cosmos and the heavenly angels were created. He is the very creative Word of God. The Light and Life and Love of God, the same essence and glory and honor of God, together with the all holy and live-giving Spirit.

Everything the Father has, He gives it to His Son. Whatever the Son has, He offers it to the Father. The same with the Spirit. This is the fulfillment of the Eucharist, the actualization of true thanksgiving in the real-ness of time in the Kingdom of God. The mystery of God whose essence would best be described as self-giving love. Where the One is, so the Other, just as where two are gathered, so is Christ. Not alone, or individualistic, but in community in the denominator of divine love. This is the manifestation of what fullness of love is, which is in trinity, the all-encompassing principle of eucharistic love, which is true unity and which grants us eternal life.

The only difference between the Persons of the Trinity is in their relation to eachother, as the Father being the Begettor, the Son as Begotten, and the Holy Spirit as Proceeding. Thus the Spirit of God is the Power of God just as the Son is as well as the Father. The only difference is in how they relate to one another, the Father as the Source, the Son as the Begotten and Incarnate, and the Spirit as the One Who proceeds and illuminates. The divine economy of the Triune God. And all of this theology is using mere human words and language, knowing these do not give full justice, and acknowledging that the mind of man alone cannot but scratch the surface on God, Whose gifts and knowledge are ineffable and too holy to describe, and leaving us bowing down before God and the holy mystery of God.

Our transformation and transfiguration into the life and joy of the Kingdom begins with our faith in Christ and our constant remembrance and worship of God. We partake of the divine nature and live in the Kingdom of Heaven even while in this world, in the Pentecostal joy of the body of Christ. The Holy Spirit has been sent as promised. He is here, now, everywhere though we don't often discern Him. The assembly of believers have become the temple of the Holy Spirit. The Bride is being prepared. And Heaven and earth rejoice, singing "Holy, Holy, Holy are Thou!" Glory to the Father, and to the Son, and to the Holy Spirit!

[moostraks]

Whose opinion specifically?



Which Orthodox Christian here has condemned you?



Well said. If anything, it is the renunciation of the ego and indeed crucifying ourselves to the world, including our own wills.



But that is the definition of faith my friend.

What specifically are the serious obstacles which block you from Orthodoxy? What beliefs of the Church do your take umbrage with which have not been explained to you by the Church?

Forgive me for asking, but perhaps your friends here can better understand you and know you and thus grow closer in communion with you if you shared with us your thoughts on these important matters.

PS: none of the Orthodox have shunned you here. What is being shunned by them is the tone and hostility in this thread. Think of it as the Orthodox fasting from the thread. Disrespectfulness serves no useful purpose.

he who leaves the Church, who intentionally and consciously falls away from it, joins the ranks of its opponents and becomes a renegade as regards apostolic Tradition. The Church dreadfully anathematized such renegades, in accordance with the words of the Saviour Himself (Matt. 18:17) and of the Apostle Paul (Gal. 1:8-9), threatening them with e ternal damnation and calling them to return to the Orthodox fold.

http://orthodoxinfo.com/inquirers/me...heterodox.aspx

^^^This position of the church towards those who find themselves an an impasse. I was not speaking of folks here on the forum. I am not going to just go by "faith" as if the issues I have serious misgivings about can just be swept under the carpet and worked out later. For me, the icon issue is a pretty big deal. It works for you and yours, more power to you but it isn't just a stumbling block for me, it is a huge millstone around my neck and no amount of explanation on your part or another person has been capable of breaking through that issue. Second, transubstantiation, another big issue I am not just going to fake my way through hoping "faith" can just change what I feel about the teaching. I will not do it.

So:

.They have been born and raised and are living according to the creed which they have inherited, just as do the majority of you who are Orthodox; in their lives there has not been a moment of personal and conscious renunciation of Orthodoxy. The Lord, "Who will have all men to be saved" (I Tim. 2:4) and "Who enlightens every man born into the world" (Jn. 1.43), undoubtedly is leading them also towards salvation In His own way.

is truly what I believe applies because as awesome of an historical repository the Orthodox Church may be I have yet to be fully convinced it is The one and only church. So I share when I have found their teaching beneficial and I usually avoid topics that I prefer not to be told how I need to just have faith on after it has been explained to me dozens of times. I know the Orthodox are passionate about their having found the one, true church and as such take serious offense at disagreeing with your church teaching. If I know I disagree and have heard the reasons a number of times before why should I willingly seek out conflict? If I am at odds here on the wisdom issue I would sure like someone to save me the drama of wading through this muck again because trust me, I will keep my distance from the Orthodox on this issue, much like I avoid sola scriptura arguments with other folks for whom that is a hill to die upon.

Life is too short to have this much drama. I detest seeing people mistreated and given false motivations for their sincerely held beliefs. I understand there will be conflict when people discuss topics such as this, but sometimes, for people who claim to believe they are drawing closer to Him who is Love, there is very little charity given to another person here to work through their own faith and very little trust that He is able to reach them where mere mortals are failing so miserable in their insults used to convince another person how right another perspective is to one's sincerely held beliefs.

***for the record never was the term Gnosticism meant to be some hideous attack. I provide another site's definition and asked for clarification from anyone who might be able to possibly explain to me my confusion.

I clarified I am not attempting to be nasty about any of this. I am not attempting to put words in the mouths of Orthodox. I asked for Orthodox members to clarify if Terry is inline with the Orthodox Church on her teaching about wisdom being the supreme attribute because I had never seen such a teaching in my years as an outsider. If it is the opinion of the Orthodox Church then I would just chalk it up to another reason I will agree to disagree with it. So far, after looking at what she put forward and trying to bring forward quotes no one else seems concerned with refuting that seem to contradict her position, I still see no reason to accept her position. I also wanted some feedback as to why, if possible, reason is a less tainted perspective than any other sense to the degree by which Terry was disparaging the other senses, if anyone takes an interest.

[moostraks]

Because you didn't read and fully comprehend what the author was talking about. He wasn't promoting sophiology. Now I've already explained this to you twice and you won't stop harping on it. In fact the author goes on to explain the difference between sophiology and the Orthodox faith--but you didn't see that did you?
Here in this quote below--you completely blow the authors teaching away by stating this time that the teaching was nothing more than a "long rambling position" as if it's not yours. That's fine if it isn't, but it is the position of the church which you just don't seem to grasp. Either you're not understanding it or being intellectually dishonest. Gotta be one or the other.

Then you further go on that I've elevated wisdom above all other aspects--which is exactly what that teaching was saying as well--that Jesus is wisdom and all divine attributes come from Him as well as wisdom itself! Then you go further again to say that because I've elevated wisdom above "all other aspects" that I've connected it to good works--*grin*--which again--is what the church teaches are good works. Now either you are not understanding the teaching and the church position or you're being intellectually dishonest, which I do believe it's both with you.

Here's your own quote blowing the authors teaching away as if it's just some "long rambling position" and nothing more.

I thought I was on ignore? I am done with your insults about being intellectually dishonest as well as whatever else you want to gin up to accuse me of being. I read what you posted and it was a long, rambling discourse on wisdom which did not flesh out your particular spin on it and the connection to good works or the viewpoint of it is the highest aspect at the expense of all others. You just keep repeating your insults now along with ignoring direct questions. I don't need this type of ridiculous nonsense. So keep on grinning about your awesome self and showing off the love, humility, and charity you have for your neighbor.

[moostraks]

Hello TER. The reason the catechism got involved is because Terry believed the reason I disagreed with her on the idea that Wisdom is the attribute of God that all other attributes flow from is because of my "false doctrine" of "sola scriptura". But frankly I don't see the "all attributes of God come from Wisdom" in scripture, the EO catechism or in your response here. And how did the topic arise in the first place? I take Paul literally when he says that it is God that works in us to both will and to do His good pleasure. (Philippians 2:13). Terry disagreed with my "God wills us to want to do His will, though He allows us to resist Him doing that" position and claimed that what the Holy Spirit gives us is "wisdom and knowledge" and we do the rest. I disagreed and said the Holy Spirit gives us more than just "wisdom and knowledge", she came back with the "everything flows from Wisdom" argument, and here we are. I won't point fingers at who started the shouting bit, but I did think you needed to know the context of the discussion if you didn't know already.

Sounds about identical to how I saw it go down and I am with you on how I sure don't see her position supported by what TER said, but she seems to Considering the things she has read into what I clearly state and repeat I am inclined to believe there is a problem with making some extraneous connections according to what someone wills rather than what is actually there. Oh well. I am sorry if this brought you more grief because of my attempt to discuss the issue from my own experiences.

[moostraks]

Cool. Please post the recipe.



Thanks for answering the question. There is a reason why I specifically worded it the way I did. I'm not talking about evidence of God's wisdom like you see in the sun or the moon or in the water cycle. I'm talking about understanding that seems to be unique to humans. (Some people think animals have that kind of understanding, so that's why I added in plants). And here's my point. Everything that I mentioned, toddlers, plants, animals, the unborn, have been scientifically proven to respond to love. Love comes first and foremost. I say this in response to something you said earlier.



But nature suggests that love indeed comes before wisdom. In fact without love a human baby will not grow into wisdom. Proverbs says "Foolishness is bound to the heart of a child". Paul said "When I became a man I put away childish things". And yet Jesus said "Unless you become like a little child, you will in no wise enter into the kingdom of God." What's the reason for this apparent contradiction? As children grow, they tend to become wiser while they also tend to become less loving. The man filled with the most wisdom of God ever, besides Jesus, was Solomon. Yet Solomon led the entire nation of Israel into idolatry. His apostasy was so bad that God told him he would lose most of his kingdom. Rather than submit to God's judgement, Solomon tried to have the man God would give 10 tribes to killed. Solomon seems to have ultimately repented (I believe Ecclesiastes was his repentance though some debate that), but what a waste in the meantime! David, on the other hand, is known more for his love for God. Yes David royally screwed up with his adultery and murder, but he never chased after other gods the way Solomon did. If all of God's attributes flowed from His wisdom, it would stand to reason that Solomon would have had more of God's attributes than did David.

1 John 4:19 We love him, because he first loved us.

Just like plant or an animal or even and unborn child can react to love of another human being, a foolish darkened hearted sinner can react to the love of God that He extends to us before we are wise enough to understand it.

I love how you explained this and it is very much in tune with how I understand and believe as well. Thank you...