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Thread: Orthodox Church in America: God is love

  1. #31
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    He didn't win that one legitimately. He misstated me on purpose. I never made the statement that God is "ONLY* wisdom.
    I haven't misstated you. This argument began because you falsely claimed that all the Holy Spirit gives the believer is "knowledge and wisdom" and the believer must do all of the works himself.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  3. #32
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Another thing here too--I don't need anyone to fight my battles for me. You may have your lit'l girlfriend or mommy there and Kevin (lol), but I can't see where even after you two/three have repeatedly tag teamed me are any better off, in fact--you actually dug large holes for yourselves.

    No--I've always been on my own when it came to fighting my own battles--it doesn't bother me that jmd got more support from hb than I did either--LOL It is what it is. Speaking of which--there really isn't much left for me in this forum at this point. Buh-bye
    Right. Because the way you fight your battles is with insults and not evidence. You have not Bible to back up your position. You have not church tradition to back up your position. You have nothing but your false arguments and your insults. I don't mind trading insults if that's all you have. But I thought you might actually have a basis for your claim that all of God's attributes flow from His wisdom and wisdom is essentially all that He is. You don't. Instead you back pedal and falsely accuse me of all sorts of things. "My girlfriend"? I wish! Been single for over two years now.

    Now, let's see if actual debate is something you are capable of doing. Do you have a reference any reference from any source that says that Wisdom is God's primary attribute and that all other attributes (power, love, etc) flow from His Wisdom? Any reference at all whatsoever?
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.



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  5. #33
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Stands to reason that if everything flows from wisdom that everything is also contained in that same wisdom. Wisdom encompasses everything and Jesus being the embodiment of every thing--being wisdom.

    Edited for correction
    Except that you have not provided a single source besides yourself that "Wisdom encompasses everything". Not once single source.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  6. #34
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Gods power is manifest in His wisdom as in Christ. Gods power and His wisdom go hand in hand--one without the other can not and does not exist. Which is repeated in scripture over and over again.


    1 Corinthians:
    24 But unto them which are called, both Jews and Greeks, Christ the power of God, and the wisdom of God.
    1 Corinthians 1:24 refutes your false teaching.

    Your "logic" is that because the Bible says God is love and God is power and God is wisdom, clearly everything flows from wisdom. Someone could just as easily take your same argument and say "everything flows from God's power" or "everything flows from God's love." Interestingly enough the OP states that love is God's greatest virtue. But if everything flowed from wisdom, as you claim, then wisdom is God's greatest virtue.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-30-2014 at 05:47 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  7. #35
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Right. Because the way you fight your battles is with insults and not evidence.
    Uh--maybe you should actually reread the threads to see who's been hurling the insults and accusations. I believe the only thing I called you was "prideful and rebellious" and I did apologize for that one. I never saw an apology from you for calling me a heretic.


    You have not Bible to back up your position. You have not church tradition to back up your position. You have nothing but your false arguments and your insults. I don't mind trading insults if that's all you have. But I thought you might actually have a basis for your claim that all of God's attributes flow from His wisdom and wisdom is essentially all that He is. You don't. Instead you back pedal and falsely accuse me of all sorts of things. "My girlfriend"? I wish! Been single for over two years now.
    I've provided you with both church teaching and scripture to back everything up, as you requested--it's up to you to understand them. That's something I can't do for you. Nothing seems to be sufficient enough--you just keep asking for more and more proof while claiming it's not enough.
    Now, let's see if actual debate is something you are capable of doing. Do you have a reference any reference from any source that says that Wisdom is God's primary attribute and that all other attributes (power, love, etc) flow from His Wisdom? Any reference at all whatsoever?
    How can I possibly debate with someone as yourself who is intellectually dishonest and attempts to misrepresent almost everything I say. Get honest for once and then maybe I'll think about answering you. Until then, you can argue with yourself or someone else.

    I'm going to leave you with this link and teaching again. It's up to you to understand it. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts..._wisdom_of_god

    "There is no doubt at all that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Wisdom of God is Jesus. The Wisdom of God in human form, personified, is the God-man Jesus. And everything that Jesus is in human form, we believe he is and possesses, so to speak, in divine form, before the Incarnation. So he is the eternal divine Wisdom of God who takes human form and reveals this divine Wisdom to us in human form. So he is the Wisdom of God."
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 07:10 AM.

  8. #36
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post

    Uh--maybe you should actually reread the threads to see who's been hurling the insults and accusations. I believe the only thing I called you was "prideful and rebellious" and I did apologize for that one. I never saw an apology from you for calling me a heretic.
    Terry, are you really that blind to your own words? Here's your latest accusation/insult.

    You may have your lit'l girlfriend or mommy there

    Sorry but moostracks is likely too young to be my "mommy" and she's not my girlfriend. How can you continue to hurl insults and accusations and then claim that you are not doing that? When you "apologize" you throw in a new accusation.

    I said that according to Russian Orthodoxy you are a heretic. I personally don't find the word "heretic" to be an insult because it literally means "able to choose". That said, I did admit I was wrong to say that you followed the belief system that was declared heretical. But you do follow the belief system that at least one Eastern Orthodox scholar declared was the basis for the heresy. Once again, quoting your source.

    Lossky states that Wisdom as an energy of God (just as love, faith, and grace are also energies of God) is not to be ascribed to be the true essence of God, to do so is to deny the apophatic and incomprehensibility of God as God's essence.[1] Sophiology is contrary to the official view of the Orthodox Church, and Bulgakov's work was denounced by the Russian Orthodox authorities as heretical.[2]

    Wisdom is not to be ascribed to be the true essence of God. That's the belief that led to the heresy of Sophiology. But that's exactly what you are doing. Of course you have a right to whatever belief you wish to have. I just object to you pretending that somehow your belief is the Orthodox Christian belief when you haven't provided a shred of evidence to support that claim and in the face of strong evidence denying that claim.


    I've provided you with both church teaching and scripture to back everything up, as you requested--it's up to you to understand them. That's something I can't do for you. Nothing seems to be sufficient enough--you just keep asking for more and more proof while claiming it's not enough.
    No you haven't. You have not provided a single quote from anyone but yourself that states that all of God's virtues flow from His wisdom. Not a single one.


    How can I possibly debate with someone as yourself who is intellectually dishonest and attempts to misrepresent almost everything I say.
    Terry, you are the one being dishonest. I'm not going to mince words. You are dishonest when you say that you haven't thrown out any insults other than calling me rebellious. You threw out an insult in this thread. You are dishonest when you claim you have provided evidence to back up your claim that all of God's virtues flow from His Wisdom. That's a conclusion that you came to, and I see where you got it from as incorrect as it is, but you have not given a single source of anyone else on the planet that has come to that same conclusion.

    Really Terry, it's this simple. Find a quote, any quote, from anywhere that says "All of the virtues of God flow from His Wisdom". Put up or shut up.

    "There is no doubt at all that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Wisdom of God is Jesus. The Wisdom of God in human form, personified, is the God-man Jesus. And everything that Jesus is in human form, we believe he is and possesses, so to speak, in divine form, before the Incarnation. So he is the eternal divine Wisdom of God who takes human form and reveals this divine Wisdom to us in human form. So he is the Wisdom of God."
    Sorry, but you've still failed. That quote does not deny the fact that Jesus is also the power of God nor does it say that the power of God flows from the Wisdom of God nor does it deny that God is love nor does it say that the love of God flows from the Wisdom of God. Jesus is the love of God and the power of God and the wisdom of God. Saying Jesus is one attribute of God is not the same as denying that Jesus is some other attribute of God. Once you get that through your head you will be able to have an honest debate, not before.
    Last edited by jmdrake; 10-30-2014 at 10:26 AM.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  9. #37
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    It stands to reason in my mind that without understanding in wisdom first and foremost of what the love of God is --one can't recognize the source of that "love" and what it is.

    To say that Love comes before wisdom is the same as saying that anything can be the essence of love without the wisdom of God to know the difference. So speaking in terms of biblical logic--wisdom must come first and reconciles with the church teaching-- that everything flows from wisdom first. Because wisdom is the embodiment and essence of the revelation of God in Christ that allows and gives life and meaning to every spiritual attribute and gift that follows and flows from wisdom being Jesus Himself.
    Terry, I want you to really think this through. You've given your reasons and your logic here. That's fine and dandy. What you have not done is shown someone else, anyone else, who has followed your same reasoning.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  10. #38
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post

    Really Terry, it's this simple. Find a quote, any quote, from anywhere that says "All of the virtues of God flow from His Wisdom". Put up or shut up.
    Right within the very same link and teaching I've given you. If you'd actually read it all, this wouldn't be happening to you right now.

    "But it is certainly the teaching of Scripture and certainly that of Eastern Orthodox Tradition that the hypostatic Wisdom of God himself is Jesus Christ. Generally speaking, in Christian theology, Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality. He is the personification in human form of God’s love, of God’s truth, of God’s beauty, of God’s power, of God’s peace, and, so too, of God’s Wisdom. So there is no doubt whatsoever that in Eastern Orthodox Christian classical theology, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ."

    Do you also need the definition of the word "flow"?

    Flow:


    : to derive from a source
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 12:15 PM.

  11. #39
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Right within the very same link and teaching I've given you. If you'd actually read it all, this wouldn't be happening to you right now.

    "But it is certainly the teaching of Scripture and certainly that of Eastern Orthodox Tradition that the hypostatic Wisdom of God himself is Jesus Christ. Generally speaking, in Christian theology, Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality. He is the personification in human form of God’s love, of God’s truth, of God’s beauty, of God’s power, of God’s peace, and, so too, of God’s Wisdom. So there is no doubt whatsoever that in Eastern Orthodox Christian classical theology, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ."
    I read it all and it is basically a long, rambling position on His Wisdom. The part where you have elevated it above all other aspects and connected it to good works is on you.
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  12. #40
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    I read it all and it is basically a long, rambling position on His Wisdom. The part where you have elevated it above all other aspects and connected it to good works is on you.
    That's right moos--that's what I was waiting for was you to discredit the teaching itself.

    If you don't believe in good works, then why are you always quoting Orthodox teaching to others? Orthodox believe in the practice of good works. Maybe you should stick with your Quaker faith if you want to hold onto sola scripture then. You can't have it both ways and still be right.



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  14. #41
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Right within the very same link and teaching I've given you. If you'd actually read it all, this wouldn't be happening to you right now.

    "But it is certainly the teaching of Scripture and certainly that of Eastern Orthodox Tradition that the hypostatic Wisdom of God himself is Jesus Christ. Generally speaking, in Christian theology, Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality. He is the personification in human form of God’s love, of God’s truth, of God’s beauty, of God’s power, of God’s peace, and, so too, of God’s Wisdom. So there is no doubt whatsoever that in Eastern Orthodox Christian classical theology, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ."

    Do you also need the definition of the word "flow"?

    Flow:


    : to derive from a source
    Okay. I looked in what you just posted for the word "derive". Guess what? IT'S NOT THERE! Really Terry, you're being silly at this point. What you quoted doesn't say God's attributes flowed from wisdom or derived from wisdom or came from wisdom or were a product of wisdom or any other synonym for flow.

    Edit: In fact your quote SUPPORTS MY VIEW! Early on in this discussion I said Jesus is the personification of love, of power and of Wisdom. Jesus is God's love. Jesus is God's wisdom. Neither of those facts means that one flows from the other.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  15. #42
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. I looked in what you just posted for the word "derive". Guess what? IT'S NOT THERE! Really Terry, you're being silly at this point. What you quoted doesn't say God's attributes flowed from wisdom or derived from wisdom or came from wisdom or were a product of wisdom or any other synonym for flow.
    Laughing hilariously here because now you're disputing the word flow. Ah jeez--I hope you're better at interpreting the law since that's your stated profession. LOL

  16. #43
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Okay. I looked in what you just posted for the word "derive". Guess what? IT'S NOT THERE! Really Terry, you're being silly at this point. What you quoted doesn't say God's attributes flowed from wisdom or derived from wisdom or came from wisdom or were a product of wisdom or any other synonym for flow..
    Argue with Merrium Webster on that one:

    Full Definition of FLOW

    intransitive verb
    1
    a (1) : to issue or move in a stream (2) : circulate
    b : to move with a continual change of place among the constituent particles <molasses flows slowly>

    2
    : rise <the tide ebbs and flows>

    3
    : abound <a land flowing with natural resources>

    4
    a : to proceed smoothly and readily <conversation flowedeasily>
    b : to have a smooth continuity

    5
    : to hang loose and billowing <her gown flowed around her>

    6
    : to derive from a source : come <the wealth that flowsfrom trade>


    Edit: In fact your quote SUPPORTS MY VIEW! Early on in this discussion I said Jesus is the personification of love, of power and of Wisdom. Jesus is God's love. Jesus is God's wisdom. Neither of those facts means that one flows from the other.
    Logic jmd, try using it here. Jesus is wisdom fact. Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality--fact. So having all these divine qualities and being wisdom Himself, every divine quality must flow from that very wisdom itself being Jesus.
    This is so strange explaining this to a lawyer--lol
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 01:02 PM.

  17. #44
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    That's right moos--that's what I was waiting for was you to discredit the teaching itself.

    If you don't believe in good works, then why are you always quoting Orthodox teaching to others? Orthodox believe in the practice of good works. Maybe you should stick with your Quaker faith if you want to hold onto sola scripture then. You can't have it both ways and still be right.
    Uh, again, still not a Quaker. I don't have to do anything you think you can command of me just because you want to turn Orthodox sermons into gnostic beliefs. Your resource did not tie in the argument you are waging regarding good works and knowledge. Nor did it cover the attitude by which you are commanding reason as more valid a sense than any other human sense.

    No one has argued that true wisdom and knowledge are aspects.

    I Corinthians 13:And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    Why is this verse and the ones surrounding it not commanding one to have wisdom instead of love if wisdom is the supreme characteristic by which all else follows?
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  18. #45
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Uh, again, still not a Quaker. I don't have to do anything you think you can command of me just because you want to turn Orthodox sermons into gnostic beliefs. Your resource did not tie in the argument you are waging regarding good works and knowledge. Nor did it cover the attitude by which you are commanding reason as more valid a sense than any other human sense.

    No one has argued that true wisdom and knowledge are aspects.

    I Corinthians 13:And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.

    Why is this verse and the ones surrounding it not commanding one to have wisdom instead of love if wisdom is the supreme characteristic by which all else follows?
    You have no clue if you're attempting to say that my practice of good works tie me to any form of gnosticism with regard to the Orthodox teaching I provided. This is you fabricating a lie against me in order to support your own argument if you want to call it that. Actually, what you've stated is simply nothing more than a slew of contradictions of your faith, your beliefs, my beliefs and what that teaching actually said.

    If you're going to continue to use the Orthodox faith and quotes to support your views, then you shouldn't be using the fact that I actually practice my faith as in good works against me. Do you understand that?
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 01:12 PM.

  19. #46
    If GOD is love, why does Satan rule the Earth?

  20. #47
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    If you're going to continue to use the Orthodox faith and quotes to support your views, then you shouldn't be using the fact that I actually practice my faith as in good works against me. Do you understand that?
    Establish that is what you are doing. Do you understand you have not provide evidence that you are indeed doing such? Do you understand you have provided no rebuttal to the quotes that were provided to you that negated your position on the preferred aspect of wisdom?
    We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota


    Go Forward With Courage

    When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
    when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
    So long as mists envelop you, be still;
    be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
    -- as it surely will.
    Then act with courage.

    Ponca Chief White Eagle

  21. #48
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Establish that is what you are doing. Do you understand you have not provide evidence that you are indeed doing such? Do you understand you have provided no rebuttal to the quotes that were provided to you that negated your position on the preferred aspect of wisdom?
    I understand that you've been caught in so many contradictions already that they're too numerous to mention at this point and that you should stop while your behind.

    It's not my reputation that's at stake here. I could care less what you think or believe at this point and you did that yourself.



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  23. #49
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    Argue with Merrium Webster on that one:

    Full Definition of FLOW

    intransitive verb
    1
    a (1) : to issue or move in a stream (2) : circulate
    b : to move with a continual change of place among the constituent particles <molasses flows slowly>

    2
    : rise <the tide ebbs and flows>

    3
    : abound <a land flowing with natural resources>

    4
    a : to proceed smoothly and readily <conversation flowedeasily>
    b : to have a smooth continuity

    5
    : to hang loose and billowing <her gown flowed around her>

    6
    : to derive from a source : come <the wealth that flowsfrom trade>
    And again, your quote doesn't use any definition of flow. Do you need to look up the definition of "honest"?

    Logic jmd, try using it here.
    I am using it here. You are not. At least you are not using it consistently. You've come up with your own "logical" interpretation, but you are unwilling to admit that it is your own "logical" interpretation and not that of your church.

    Jesus is wisdom fact. Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality--fact. So having all these divine qualities and being wisdom Himself, every divine quality must flow from that very wisdom itself being Jesus.
    This is so strange explaining this to a lawyer--lol
    It's not "strange" at all. You are making an argument outside of the evidence. As a lawyer in court I would object and any judge worth a flip with sustain my objection and make you shut up.

    Again, Jesus being the personification of both power and Wisdom and love does not mean that power or love flows from Wisdom. Since Jesus is all of those things any of those things could just as easily flow from the other. Also none of those things might flow from the other. You have given no evidence that Jesus' personification of Wisdom is any different from His personification of power or love. The Bible clearly says that He is all three and more. It never says that He's wisdom and the other attributes flow from that. Nor does any other source you have cited so far.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  24. #50
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    If GOD is love, why does Satan rule the Earth?
    Do you believe it contradictory for God to have different attributes than His creation? Why?
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  25. #51
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    And again, your quote doesn't use any definition of flow. Do you need to look up the definition of "honest"?



    I am using it here. You are not. At least you are not using it consistently. You've come up with your own "logical" interpretation, but you are unwilling to admit that it is your own "logical" interpretation and not that of your church.



    It's not "strange" at all. You are making an argument outside of the evidence. As a lawyer in court I would object and any judge worth a flip with sustain my objection and make you shut up.

    Again, Jesus being the personification of both power and Wisdom and love does not mean that power or love flows from Wisdom. Since Jesus is all of those things any of those things could just as easily flow from the other. Also none of those things might flow from the other. You have given no evidence that Jesus' personification of Wisdom is any different from His personification of power or love. The Bible clearly says that He is all three and more. It never says that He's wisdom and the other attributes flow from that. Nor does any other source you have cited so far.
    LOL *face palm*

    Repeating this again:

    Jesus is wisdom fact. Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality--fact. So having all these divine qualities and being wisdom Himself, every divine quality must flow from that very wisdom itself being Jesus.


    Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 01:54 PM.

  26. #52
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Do you believe it contradictory for God to have different attributes than His creation? Why?
    Because we're made in his image? If we'd made it to the tree of life, before getting kicked out of the garden, we'd be immortal too.

    Now it's again your turn to answer my question.
    Last edited by Ronin Truth; 10-30-2014 at 01:34 PM.

  27. #53
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    Because we're made in his image? If we'd made it to the tree of life, before getting kicked out of the garden, we'd be immortal too.
    Yes, but we (and everything else in the known and unknown realms) are made (that is, created) and God is not.
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  28. #54
    Quote Originally Posted by Terry1 View Post
    LOL *face palm*

    Repeating this again:

    Jesus is wisdom fact. Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality--fact. So having all these divine qualities and being wisdom Himself, every divine quality must flow from that very wisdom itself being Jesus
    Repeating the same lie over and over again doesn't make it true. Since you claim to understand logic, I will lay this out in formal logic for you.

    Jesus is love.
    Jesus is wisdom.
    Jesus is power.

    If you plugged that into a computer and asked the question Jesus is X you would get the response X = [love, wisdom, power]. You would NOT get the response X = wisdom and love and power flow from wisdom.

    And that's my point Terry. You've made up your own logic that nobody else you are able to quote supports and you're trying to insist that it must be true just because you say so.
    9/11 Thermate experiments

    Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I

    "I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"

    "We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul

    "It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
    Quote Originally Posted by Brian4Liberty View Post
    The road to hell is paved with good intentions. No need to make it a superhighway.
    Quote Originally Posted by osan View Post
    The only way I see Trump as likely to affect any real change would be through martial law, and that has zero chances of success without strong buy-in by the JCS at the very minimum.

  29. #55
    Quote Originally Posted by heavenlyboy34 View Post
    Yes, but we (and everything else in the known and unknown realms) are made (that is, created) and God is not.
    YouTube, or it didn't happen.

    Now it's again your turn to answer my question.

  30. #56
    Quote Originally Posted by jmdrake View Post
    Repeating the same lie over and over again doesn't make it true. Since you claim to understand logic, I will lay this out in formal logic for you.

    Jesus is love.
    Jesus is wisdom.
    Jesus is power.

    If you plugged that into a computer and asked the question Jesus is X you would get the response X = [love, wisdom, power]. You would NOT get the response X = wisdom and love and power flow from wisdom.

    And that's my point Terry. You've made up your own logic that nobody else you are able to quote supports and you're trying to insist that it must be true just because you say so.
    But whoops! Where does everything flow from then? It comes from Jesus right? If Jesus IS wisdom--then where else do all of the divine attributes come from? He is either everything personified as wisdom or He's what you're attempting to say apart from wisdom.

    I bet I could make more money as a lawyer than you could.
    Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 01:53 PM.



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  32. #57
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    YouTube, or it didn't happen.

    Now it's again your turn to answer my question.
    You didn't ask me a question. You were taking a SWAG stab at answering my question-except you put a ? at the end. I don't have a tube, and neither does anyone else have a tube of their understanding of the beginning of the universe. It's one of those points at which astrophysics and related sciences becomes a religion. (really there is a point at which EVERY science becomes religious...such as the insistence on behalf of some linguistic scientists that there was a proto-world language despite not having any proof whatsoever)
    Quote Originally Posted by Torchbearer
    what works can never be discussed online. there is only one language the government understands, and until the people start speaking it by the magazine full... things will remain the same.
    Hear/buy my music here "government is the enemy of liberty"-RP Support me on Patreon here Ephesians 6:12

  33. #58
    Sure I did, and you know it.

    Post#50.

    If GOD is love, why does Satan rule the Earth?

  34. #59
    Quote Originally Posted by Ronin Truth View Post
    If GOD is love, why does Satan rule the Earth?
    Bible is chocked full of paradoxes. "God is love" highlights the irrationality from which these paradoxes arise. Through reason and study you can reconcile the text of the Word with the spirit of the Word to understand these paradoxes, but you will never be able to make all the text logically consistent. Reality isn't built that way and any attempts to codify reality into some logically consistent framework will fail.
    When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
    When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6

  35. #60
    Quote Originally Posted by moostraks View Post
    Uh, again, still not a Quaker.
    Really? Well, you certainly fooled me and probably a lot of other folks with this thread then, which was just a few months ago. So have you converted to Orthodoxy then and still with a disdain for good works? That's not good.

    http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=Quaker+quotes

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