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9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Right. Because the way you fight your battles is with insults and not evidence. You have not Bible to back up your position. You have not church tradition to back up your position. You have nothing but your false arguments and your insults. I don't mind trading insults if that's all you have. But I thought you might actually have a basis for your claim that all of God's attributes flow from His wisdom and wisdom is essentially all that He is. You don't. Instead you back pedal and falsely accuse me of all sorts of things. "My girlfriend"? I wish! Been single for over two years now.
Now, let's see if actual debate is something you are capable of doing. Do you have a reference any reference from any source that says that Wisdom is God's primary attribute and that all other attributes (power, love, etc) flow from His Wisdom? Any reference at all whatsoever?
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
1 Corinthians 1:24 refutes your false teaching.
Your "logic" is that because the Bible says God is love and God is power and God is wisdom, clearly everything flows from wisdom. Someone could just as easily take your same argument and say "everything flows from God's power" or "everything flows from God's love." Interestingly enough the OP states that love is God's greatest virtue. But if everything flowed from wisdom, as you claim, then wisdom is God's greatest virtue.
Last edited by jmdrake; 10-30-2014 at 05:47 AM.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Uh--maybe you should actually reread the threads to see who's been hurling the insults and accusations. I believe the only thing I called you was "prideful and rebellious" and I did apologize for that one. I never saw an apology from you for calling me a heretic.
I've provided you with both church teaching and scripture to back everything up, as you requested--it's up to you to understand them. That's something I can't do for you. Nothing seems to be sufficient enough--you just keep asking for more and more proof while claiming it's not enough.You have not Bible to back up your position. You have not church tradition to back up your position. You have nothing but your false arguments and your insults. I don't mind trading insults if that's all you have. But I thought you might actually have a basis for your claim that all of God's attributes flow from His wisdom and wisdom is essentially all that He is. You don't. Instead you back pedal and falsely accuse me of all sorts of things. "My girlfriend"? I wish! Been single for over two years now.
How can I possibly debate with someone as yourself who is intellectually dishonest and attempts to misrepresent almost everything I say. Get honest for once and then maybe I'll think about answering you. Until then, you can argue with yourself or someone else.Now, let's see if actual debate is something you are capable of doing. Do you have a reference any reference from any source that says that Wisdom is God's primary attribute and that all other attributes (power, love, etc) flow from His Wisdom? Any reference at all whatsoever?
I'm going to leave you with this link and teaching again. It's up to you to understand it. http://www.ancientfaith.com/podcasts..._wisdom_of_god
"There is no doubt at all that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Wisdom of God is Jesus. The Wisdom of God in human form, personified, is the God-man Jesus. And everything that Jesus is in human form, we believe he is and possesses, so to speak, in divine form, before the Incarnation. So he is the eternal divine Wisdom of God who takes human form and reveals this divine Wisdom to us in human form. So he is the Wisdom of God."
Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 07:10 AM.
Terry, are you really that blind to your own words? Here's your latest accusation/insult.
You may have your lit'l girlfriend or mommy there
Sorry but moostracks is likely too young to be my "mommy" and she's not my girlfriend. How can you continue to hurl insults and accusations and then claim that you are not doing that? When you "apologize" you throw in a new accusation.
I said that according to Russian Orthodoxy you are a heretic. I personally don't find the word "heretic" to be an insult because it literally means "able to choose". That said, I did admit I was wrong to say that you followed the belief system that was declared heretical. But you do follow the belief system that at least one Eastern Orthodox scholar declared was the basis for the heresy. Once again, quoting your source.
Lossky states that Wisdom as an energy of God (just as love, faith, and grace are also energies of God) is not to be ascribed to be the true essence of God, to do so is to deny the apophatic and incomprehensibility of God as God's essence.[1] Sophiology is contrary to the official view of the Orthodox Church, and Bulgakov's work was denounced by the Russian Orthodox authorities as heretical.[2]
Wisdom is not to be ascribed to be the true essence of God. That's the belief that led to the heresy of Sophiology. But that's exactly what you are doing. Of course you have a right to whatever belief you wish to have. I just object to you pretending that somehow your belief is the Orthodox Christian belief when you haven't provided a shred of evidence to support that claim and in the face of strong evidence denying that claim.
No you haven't. You have not provided a single quote from anyone but yourself that states that all of God's virtues flow from His wisdom. Not a single one.I've provided you with both church teaching and scripture to back everything up, as you requested--it's up to you to understand them. That's something I can't do for you. Nothing seems to be sufficient enough--you just keep asking for more and more proof while claiming it's not enough.
Terry, you are the one being dishonest. I'm not going to mince words. You are dishonest when you say that you haven't thrown out any insults other than calling me rebellious. You threw out an insult in this thread. You are dishonest when you claim you have provided evidence to back up your claim that all of God's virtues flow from His Wisdom. That's a conclusion that you came to, and I see where you got it from as incorrect as it is, but you have not given a single source of anyone else on the planet that has come to that same conclusion.How can I possibly debate with someone as yourself who is intellectually dishonest and attempts to misrepresent almost everything I say.
Really Terry, it's this simple. Find a quote, any quote, from anywhere that says "All of the virtues of God flow from His Wisdom". Put up or shut up.
Sorry, but you've still failed. That quote does not deny the fact that Jesus is also the power of God nor does it say that the power of God flows from the Wisdom of God nor does it deny that God is love nor does it say that the love of God flows from the Wisdom of God. Jesus is the love of God and the power of God and the wisdom of God. Saying Jesus is one attribute of God is not the same as denying that Jesus is some other attribute of God. Once you get that through your head you will be able to have an honest debate, not before."There is no doubt at all that in the Eastern Orthodox Church, the Wisdom of God is Jesus. The Wisdom of God in human form, personified, is the God-man Jesus. And everything that Jesus is in human form, we believe he is and possesses, so to speak, in divine form, before the Incarnation. So he is the eternal divine Wisdom of God who takes human form and reveals this divine Wisdom to us in human form. So he is the Wisdom of God."
Last edited by jmdrake; 10-30-2014 at 10:26 AM.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Right within the very same link and teaching I've given you. If you'd actually read it all, this wouldn't be happening to you right now.
"But it is certainly the teaching of Scripture and certainly that of Eastern Orthodox Tradition that the hypostatic Wisdom of God himself is Jesus Christ. Generally speaking, in Christian theology, Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality. He is the personification in human form of God’s love, of God’s truth, of God’s beauty, of God’s power, of God’s peace, and, so too, of God’s Wisdom. So there is no doubt whatsoever that in Eastern Orthodox Christian classical theology, the Wisdom of God is Jesus Christ."
Do you also need the definition of the word "flow"?
Flow:
: to derive from a source
Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 12:15 PM.
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
That's right moos--that's what I was waiting for was you to discredit the teaching itself.
If you don't believe in good works, then why are you always quoting Orthodox teaching to others? Orthodox believe in the practice of good works. Maybe you should stick with your Quaker faith if you want to hold onto sola scripture then. You can't have it both ways and still be right.
Okay. I looked in what you just posted for the word "derive". Guess what? IT'S NOT THERE! Really Terry, you're being silly at this point. What you quoted doesn't say God's attributes flowed from wisdom or derived from wisdom or came from wisdom or were a product of wisdom or any other synonym for flow.
Edit: In fact your quote SUPPORTS MY VIEW! Early on in this discussion I said Jesus is the personification of love, of power and of Wisdom. Jesus is God's love. Jesus is God's wisdom. Neither of those facts means that one flows from the other.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Argue with Merrium Webster on that one:
Full Definition of FLOW
intransitive verb
1
a (1) : to issue or move in a stream (2) : circulate
b : to move with a continual change of place among the constituent particles <molasses flows slowly>
2
: rise <the tide ebbs and flows>
3
: abound <a land flowing with natural resources>
4
a : to proceed smoothly and readily <conversation flowedeasily>
b : to have a smooth continuity
5
: to hang loose and billowing <her gown flowed around her>
6
: to derive from a source : come <the wealth that flowsfrom trade>
Logic jmd, try using it here. Jesus is wisdom fact. Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality--fact. So having all these divine qualities and being wisdom Himself, every divine quality must flow from that very wisdom itself being Jesus.Edit: In fact your quote SUPPORTS MY VIEW! Early on in this discussion I said Jesus is the personification of love, of power and of Wisdom. Jesus is God's love. Jesus is God's wisdom. Neither of those facts means that one flows from the other.
This is so strange explaining this to a lawyer--lol
Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 01:02 PM.
Uh, again, still not a Quaker. I don't have to do anything you think you can command of me just because you want to turn Orthodox sermons into gnostic beliefs. Your resource did not tie in the argument you are waging regarding good works and knowledge. Nor did it cover the attitude by which you are commanding reason as more valid a sense than any other human sense.
No one has argued that true wisdom and knowledge are aspects.
I Corinthians 13:And though I have the gift of prophecy, and understand all mysteries and all knowledge, and though I have all faith, so that I could remove mountains, but have not love, I am nothing.
Why is this verse and the ones surrounding it not commanding one to have wisdom instead of love if wisdom is the supreme characteristic by which all else follows?
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
You have no clue if you're attempting to say that my practice of good works tie me to any form of gnosticism with regard to the Orthodox teaching I provided. This is you fabricating a lie against me in order to support your own argument if you want to call it that. Actually, what you've stated is simply nothing more than a slew of contradictions of your faith, your beliefs, my beliefs and what that teaching actually said.
If you're going to continue to use the Orthodox faith and quotes to support your views, then you shouldn't be using the fact that I actually practice my faith as in good works against me. Do you understand that?
Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 01:12 PM.
If GOD is love, why does Satan rule the Earth?
We will be known forever by the tracks we leave. - Dakota
Go Forward With Courage
When you are in doubt, be still, and wait;
when doubt no longer exists for you, then go forward with courage.
So long as mists envelop you, be still;
be still until the sunlight pours through and dispels the mists
-- as it surely will.
Then act with courage.
Ponca Chief White Eagle
I understand that you've been caught in so many contradictions already that they're too numerous to mention at this point and that you should stop while your behind.
It's not my reputation that's at stake here. I could care less what you think or believe at this point and you did that yourself.
And again, your quote doesn't use any definition of flow. Do you need to look up the definition of "honest"?
I am using it here. You are not. At least you are not using it consistently. You've come up with your own "logical" interpretation, but you are unwilling to admit that it is your own "logical" interpretation and not that of your church.Logic jmd, try using it here.
It's not "strange" at all. You are making an argument outside of the evidence. As a lawyer in court I would object and any judge worth a flip with sustain my objection and make you shut up.Jesus is wisdom fact. Jesus is the personification of absolutely every divine quality--fact. So having all these divine qualities and being wisdom Himself, every divine quality must flow from that very wisdom itself being Jesus.
This is so strange explaining this to a lawyer--lol
Again, Jesus being the personification of both power and Wisdom and love does not mean that power or love flows from Wisdom. Since Jesus is all of those things any of those things could just as easily flow from the other. Also none of those things might flow from the other. You have given no evidence that Jesus' personification of Wisdom is any different from His personification of power or love. The Bible clearly says that He is all three and more. It never says that He's wisdom and the other attributes flow from that. Nor does any other source you have cited so far.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 01:54 PM.
Repeating the same lie over and over again doesn't make it true. Since you claim to understand logic, I will lay this out in formal logic for you.
Jesus is love.
Jesus is wisdom.
Jesus is power.
If you plugged that into a computer and asked the question Jesus is X you would get the response X = [love, wisdom, power]. You would NOT get the response X = wisdom and love and power flow from wisdom.
And that's my point Terry. You've made up your own logic that nobody else you are able to quote supports and you're trying to insist that it must be true just because you say so.
9/11 Thermate experiments
Winston Churchhill on why the U.S. should have stayed OUT of World War I
"I am so %^&*^ sick of this cult of Ron Paul. The Paulites. What is with these %^&*^ people? Why are there so many of them?" YouTube rant by "TheAmazingAtheist"
"We as a country have lost faith and confidence in freedom." -- Ron Paul
"It can be a challenge to follow the pronouncements of President Trump, as he often seems to change his position on any number of items from week to week, or from day to day, or even from minute to minute." -- Ron Paul
But whoops! Where does everything flow from then? It comes from Jesus right? If Jesus IS wisdom--then where else do all of the divine attributes come from? He is either everything personified as wisdom or He's what you're attempting to say apart from wisdom.
I bet I could make more money as a lawyer than you could.
Last edited by Terry1; 10-30-2014 at 01:53 PM.
You didn't ask me a question. You were taking a SWAG stab at answering my question-except you put a ? at the end. I don't have a tube, and neither does anyone else have a tube of their understanding of the beginning of the universe. It's one of those points at which astrophysics and related sciences becomes a religion. (really there is a point at which EVERY science becomes religious...such as the insistence on behalf of some linguistic scientists that there was a proto-world language despite not having any proof whatsoever)
Sure I did, and you know it.
Post#50.
If GOD is love, why does Satan rule the Earth?
Bible is chocked full of paradoxes. "God is love" highlights the irrationality from which these paradoxes arise. Through reason and study you can reconcile the text of the Word with the spirit of the Word to understand these paradoxes, but you will never be able to make all the text logically consistent. Reality isn't built that way and any attempts to codify reality into some logically consistent framework will fail.
When a trumpet sounds in a city, do not the people tremble?
When disaster comes to a city, has not the Lord caused it? Amos 3:6
Really? Well, you certainly fooled me and probably a lot of other folks with this thread then, which was just a few months ago. So have you converted to Orthodoxy then and still with a disdain for good works? That's not good.
http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=Quaker+quotes
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