Orthodox Church in America: God is love

[TER]

Dup

[TER]

Am I not also a heretic according to Orthodox beliefs by not conforming myself to the Orthodox Church standards regarding oh, say icons?

No, you would not be a heretic my friend. One would have to be an Orthodox Christian espousing heretical beliefs to be by definition a heretic. Rather you have your beliefs and your faith, which are what you will be judged on, not by me or even the Orthodox Church, but by God. And I can appreciate your caution in joining in the Church because of certain misgivings, as you understand the consequences of becoming a member of the Church to only later deny the faith of the same Church. Of course, my hope is that one day you can come to see the truths of the faith which you have misgivings about and come to the fullness of the life renewed through the sacramental life within the Church, in unity of faith and spirit and in communion with the saints. This requires at times to humble ourselves and come to realize that perhaps our misgivings comes from our own doubts and limitations, our own misconceptions and weakness. Much of the doctrines which seem impassable to our minds at one time requires time and experience and most important of all, illumination by the Holy Spirit, before we can truly understand them. It is not necessary to fall lock step in every doctrine in the beginning, especially before Baptism and Chrismation. There simply are some things our minds cannot easily accept until we have been given the gnosis made possible by the Holy Spirit. What is required, however, is faith, humility, trust, and obedience, and an open mind which is capable of casting off prejudices so that the hidden mysteries which we create as obstacles now might become understood by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Entering the Church takes risks. For the early Christians who were baptized and Chrismated, they took the risk of losing their very earthly lives because of this dark and hostile world which fights against the light, and still today this tragically is true for many Christians. But the benefits, the joy, the treasures, and the gifts far outweigh these risks. God does not hinder those who seek Him and wish to cast off their old self to join with Him in the newness of life. The question rather is are we prepared to cast off those things which we think hinders us to follow Him fully? Are we prepared to take the kingdom by force, not force against our fellow brother, but force upon our own wills and notions? These are the things the inquirer must think about, and which I believe you too have probably thought about. But if you are looking for the 'perfect' church which, by being perfect means to conform to your individual thoughts and conclusions, then you might very well spend the little time you have in this world searching and searching and never finding it, while all the while it was close to you and opened to you, yet you did not fully realize it.

Take your time, pray, and meditate on the words of Christ and the teachings of the saints. But don't wait too long my dear friend, because there is but one life we have to live, and the Kingdom is here now and available and only requires our faith and humility. The truth is, some things we will not understand until after we have entered into the Church, because such is the mystery of divine illumination through the Holy Spirit. For us to know and understand certain spiritual truths, we must first be illuminated from on high, just as in order to know the Holy Spirit, we must first allow Him to give us the wisdom and knowledge.

Anyway, I have babbled enough. Peace be with you and do not think I believe you to be a heretic. Rather, I look forward to the day in which we can share in unity of faith, unity of love, and unity of life within the Kingdom of God together with all the saints. If not in this world, then hopefully by the grace of God, in the next.

[moostraks]

No, you would not be a heretic my friend. One would have to be an Orthodox Christian espousing heretical beliefs to be by definition a heretic. Rather you have your beliefs and your faith, which are what you will be judged on, not by me or even the Orthodox Church, but by God. And I can appreciate your caution in joining in the Church because of certain misgivings, as you understand the consequences of becoming a member of the Church to only later deny the faith of the same Church. Of course, my hope is that one day you can come to see the truths of the faith which you have misgivings about and come to the fullness of the life renewed through the sacramental life within the Church, in unity of faith and spirit and in communion with the saints. This requires at times to humble ourselves and come to realize that perhaps our misgivings comes from our own doubts and limitations, our own misconceptions and weakness. Much of the doctrines which seem impassable to our minds at one time requires time and experience and most important of all, illumination by the Holy Spirit, before we can truly understand them. It is not necessary to fall lock step in every doctrine in the beginning, especially before Baptism and Chrismation. There simply are some things our minds cannot easily accept until we have been given the gnosis made possible by the Holy Spirit. What is required, however, is faith, humility, trust, and obedience, and an open mind which is capable of casting off prejudices so that the hidden mysteries which we create as obstacles now might become understood by the grace of the Holy Spirit.

Entering the Church takes risks. For the early Christians who were baptized and Chrismated, they took the risk of losing their very earthly lives because of this dark and hostile world which fights against the light, and still today this tragically is true for many Christians. But the benefits, the joy, the treasures, and the gifts far outweigh these risks. God does not hinder those who seek Him and wish to cast off their old self to join with Him in the newness of life. The question rather is are we prepared to cast off those things which we think hinders us to follow Him fully? Are we prepared to take the kingdom by force, not force against our fellow brother, but force upon our own wills and notions? These are the things the inquirer must think about, and which I believe you too have probably thought about. But if you are looking for the 'perfect' church which, by being perfect means to conform to your individual thoughts and conclusions, then you might very well spend the little time you have in this world searching and searching and never finding it, while all the while it was close to you and opened to you, yet you did not fully realize it.

Take your time, pray, and meditate on the words of Christ and the teachings of the saints. But don't wait too long my dear friend, because there is but one life we have to live, and the Kingdom is here now and available and only requires our faith and humility. The truth is, some things we will not understand until after we have entered into the Church, because such is the mystery of divine illumination through the Holy Spirit. For us to know and understand certain spiritual truths, we must first be illuminated from on high, just as in order to know the Holy Spirit, we must first allow Him to give us the wisdom and knowledge.

Anyway, I have babbled enough. Peace be with you and do not think I believe you to be a heretic. Rather, I look forward to the day in which we can share in unity of faith, unity of love, and unity of life within the Kingdom of God together with all the saints. If not in this world, then hopefully by the grace of God, in the next.

I know it has bothered you as you feel I am not experiencing the fullness of the faith as your church has given to you, but I am true to my conscience and living the faith as I have been called. It is unlikely imo I will be Orthodox but prayers for guidance are always appreciated from you, my friend. You never know what the future holds. Glad to know I am not viewed in such a negativistic manner, but guess I came to terms with the general description regarding heretic as I find myself outside of the brick and mortars for now so the sting when folks choose to use it is not so painful anymore.

Peace to you and yours ~~~

[moostraks]

Searching a quote authenticity and ran across this,

"While we find deep sources of inspiration in the Christian and Hebrew scriptures, we look to the direct experience of the Spirit as our primary spiritual guide. We also find great wisdom and encouragement in the writings and teachings of other religious traditions.

Friends believe that the evidence of the workings of the Divine Spirit must be seen in daily behavior and practices of Friends. We call these active expressions of God's love "testimonies." Historically and presently this commitment has called Friends to be active in worldly movements for peace and social justice, notably our work against slavery and institutional racism, for gender equality, for economic justice and for world peace. Friends are perhaps best known for the Peace Testimony which has called many Friends to refuse to bear arms in any conflict."

http://www.austinquakers.org/public/...g=aboutquakers

^^^This is the type of thinking that drives my faith for those who might be curious since I have been accused of having no definitive beliefs. I have taken a long road to get where I am and have placed a great deal of effort into what I believe, and it is certainly not up for debate with those merely looking for blood in the water. There is a manner by which one can have faith and yet not command others to agree or be damned.

[Terry1]

Searching a quote authenticity and ran across this,http://www.austinquakers.org/public/...g=aboutquakers

^^^This is the type of thinking that drives my faith for those who might be curious since I have been accused of having no definitive beliefs. I have taken a long road to get where I am and have placed a great deal of effort into what I believe, and it is certainly not up for debate with those merely looking for blood in the water. There is a manner by which one can have faith and yet not command others to agree or be damned.

So then this means that you don't like someone accusing you of believing or not believing something you've told them multiple times that you do or don't subscribe to then? I can certainly feel your pain. So I would never tell you that you're in contradiction to the Quaker faith using Quaker quotes against you--when I don't even subscribe to that faith.

[moostraks]

So then this means that you don't like someone accusing you of believing or not believing something you've told them multiple times that you do or don't subscribe to then? I can certainly feel your pain. So I would never tell you that you're in contradiction to the Quaker faith using Quaker quotes against you--when I don't even subscribe to that faith.

If you asked me what contradiction I felt there was regarding a specific statement I put forth I would endeavor to explain it to you completely. For the record, I'm not Quaker/Friend because I am not attending a brick and mortar church, but they are closest to my thought processes and experience. So it is not that you are offending me by calling me Quaker but that I am not officially connected to the church. I am closest to the ultra conservative Friends which meet in silence and it has not been conducive to my family arrangement to attend as of yet. So I am more wanting to be clear on my affiliation, more so than my beliefs, Friends are a mixed bag of beliefs from conservative to uber liberal so you can likely accuse me of a number of things but it would not make it true because of the huge variation within the Quaker churches. If you had years of experience as a seeker amongst Quakers and questioned my beliefs with quotes from the church I was a member to I would make an effort to explain how they relate to my experiences and beliefs. I wouldn't just ignore the questions and tell you to read a long treatise that didn't directly apply to the questions being asked of me.

[robert68]

Bible is chocked full of paradoxes. "God is love" highlights the irrationality from which these paradoxes arise. Through reason and study you can reconcile the text of the Word with the spirit of the Word to understand these paradoxes, but you will never be able to make all the text logically consistent. Reality isn't built that way and any attempts to codify reality into some logically consistent framework will fail.

The Bible isn't reality.

[robert68]

..

[Terry1]

If you asked me what contradiction I felt there was regarding a specific statement I put forth I would endeavor to explain it to you completely. For the record, I'm not Quaker/Friend because I am not attending a brick and mortar church, but they are closest to my thought processes and experience. So it is not that you are offending me by calling me Quaker but that I am not officially connected to the church. I am closest to the ultra conservative Friends which meet in silence and it has not been conducive to my family arrangement to attend as of yet. So I am more wanting to be clear on my affiliation, more so than my beliefs, Friends are a mixed bag of beliefs from conservative to uber liberal so you can likely accuse me of a number of things but it would not make it true because of the huge variation within the Quaker churches. If you had years of experience as a seeker amongst Quakers and questioned my beliefs with quotes from the church I was a member to I would make an effort to explain how they relate to my experiences and beliefs. I wouldn't just ignore the questions and tell you to read a long treatise that didn't directly apply to the questions being asked of me.

You do have the *victim mentality* moos, because it's not about whether you're a Quaker or not. My point was--you don't like being accused of subscribing to something that you've told someone else multiple times that you don't subscribe to. That was my point. How many times did you accuse me of practicing gnosticism? How many times did I tell you that I don't subscribe to that--nor do I believe in it. Then what did you do with what I told you? You continued to make it an issue in multiple posts despite what I told you telling me that I was in contradiction to my own beliefs. That was my point.

I don't care what you are or not, me using the "Quaker" belief was simply an example of that. So you don't subscribe to anything, but claim that the Quaker faith comes the closest--so if you're dedicating an entire thread to that same faith--it's not unthinkable or unreasonable for someone to assume that's what you subscribe to.

So then by you claiming this--- being your quote here:

moos wrote:
I don't have to do anything you think you can command of me just because you want to turn Orthodox sermons into gnostic beliefs.

You're arguing my own faith with me claiming that I'm in contradiction to it, when you don't even subscribe to it. I mean, someone reading that would have to say "wtf!!" I may argue over doctrinal difference, but I know I've never accused any one of not believing in their own stated faith and then argue to the extent that you have with me. I mean--really--that's just not even rational.

Then again--I don't post quotes from a protestant site and then whine and complain if someone mistakes me for a protestant either.

[jmdrake]

So then this means that you don't like someone accusing you of believing or not believing something you've told them multiple times that you do or don't subscribe to then? I can certainly feel your pain. So I would never tell you that you're in contradiction to the Quaker faith using Quaker quotes against you--when I don't even subscribe to that faith.

Terry, I'm going to be careful how I say this as I don't want to restart the flame war. I just want you to consider that if you are telling someone they are wrong about a particular belief and that the source of their error is that they don't accept the extra-blblical sources that you accept, it is only natural for that person to look at the sources you accept to see if what you are saying squares up with them.

[Terry1]

Terry, I'm going to be careful how I say this as I don't want to restart the flame war. I just want you to consider that if you are telling someone they are wrong about a particular belief and that the source of their error is that they don't accept the extra-blblical sources that you accept, it is only natural for that person to look at the sources you accept to see if what you are saying squares up with them.

Don't worry jmd--I realize you can't help yourself being a lawyer, but I can also see that you're a good lawyer. You held my feet to the fire and that's okay--I can stand the heat because I'm made of fire--I eat fire for breakfast.

[moostraks]

You do have the *victim mentality* moos, because it's not about whether you're a Quaker or not. My point was--you don't like being accused of subscribing to something that you've told someone else multiple times that you don't subscribe to. That was my point. How many times did you accuse me of practicing gnosticism? How many times did I tell you that I don't subscribe to that--nor do I believe in it. Then what did you do with what I told you? You continued to make it an issue in multiple posts despite what I told you telling me that I was in contradiction to my own beliefs. That was my point.

I don't care what you are or not, me using the "Quaker" belief was simply an example of that. So you don't subscribe to anything, but claim that the Quaker faith comes the closest--so if you're dedicating an entire thread to that same faith--it's not unthinkable or unreasonable for someone to assume that's what you subscribe to.

So then by you claiming this--- being your quote here:

You're arguing my own faith with me claiming that I'm in contradiction to it, when you don't even subscribe to it. I mean, someone reading that would have to say "wtf!!" I may argue over doctrinal difference, but I know I've never accused any one of not believing in their own stated faith and then argue to the extent that you have with me. I mean--really--that's just not even rational.

Then again--I don't post quotes from a protestant site and then whine and complain if someone mistakes me for a protestant either.

I don't have a victim mentality and you can add that to the list of things you insult me with but claim is in my head.

I got your point but was making my own by claiming to try and go after me regarding Quakers/Friends is likely not going to parallel the emotional association, henceforth why I spent so long explaining my connection/non-connection to the church and that even with the church itself the argument is not there. Your analogy is in no ways similar to what my experience or reaction would be. I didn't want you jumping to conclusions since that is all I have dealt with when I chose not to write a novel in response to you.

If you brought up something to me and I was supposed to adhere to a somewhat controlled set of thinking, I would still attempt to explain why the quotes in question applied, according to my logic, and would not send you to a long treatise that did not cover the questions asked of me. That is how I would respect a discussion in which I am commanding others to abide by my beliefs. But you see even that statement is never going to happen because I am not going to demand you live by my beliefs, I just ask that I be tolerated to have my own opinions and reasoning for thinking as I do.

Since I have a Native American thread and a Quaker thread does that make me both? I see the light of the Spirit manifested in all faiths to a greater and lesser extent depending on what window I am looking through and share the things that inspired me. I started those two threads to be a voice for some of the lesser discussed spiritual paths because Orthodox, Catholics, and Calvinists were basically ruling the board. I would start one on Nature spirituality and Anabaptism but focused on the two at the time that were easiest, but I might, if I get some time, start those threads.

It is absurd to keep droning on about it when if you look at my signature it would be more likely to assume I was following NA spirituality, I mean just by looking at thread titles and posts I have made in both threads. Or you could have listened to what I say when I post any number of times this has been brought up regarding my connection to Orthodoxy and to other faiths. Have I not spent a good deal of time discussing Anabaptism? I share resources and my exposure or experiences. I try to share what light I see in other faiths and trust in Him that people are where they need to be. So I am sorry if you are stuck on the fact that I see Him outside of the scope of a single group as The gateway and think that means I have no beliefs. No one should command others to live according to their own choices and experiences.

And with all this diversion you have put up attacking my motives, my believes, and my intellect, you never bothered to answer any of the direct questions that I asked of you or address the quotes I brought forward for the purpose of clarifying my own experience so that my confusion may have been alleviated.

Terry, I'm going to be careful how I say this as I don't want to restart the flame war. I just want you to consider that if you are telling someone they are wrong about a particular belief and that the source of their error is that they don't accept the extra-blblical sources that you accept, it is only natural for that person to look at the sources you accept to see if what you are saying squares up with them.

And irony is I came into this thinking she was misunderstood and there should be a much closer agreement between you two. Oh well...that'll teach me.

[Terry1]

I don't have a victim mentality

Really? What's this then?

Originally Posted by moostraks
I read the repeated insults and false allegations as well. I have been a bit startled by the accusations thrown at me when I was only trying to offer what had been my experiences and opinion

And irony is I came into this thinking she was misunderstood and there should be a much closer agreement between you two. Oh well...that'll teach me.

It's just amazing how that didn't work out so well considering your mediating skills and all.

It might help next time not to mock with graphic images, videos, lies, insults and false accusations about what I believe. I think you need to tweak those mediating skills just a tad bit there moos.

[moostraks]

Really? What's this then?







It's just amazing how that didn't work out so well considering your mediating skills and all.

It might help next time not to mock with graphic images, videos, lies, insults and false accusations about what I believe. I think you need to tweak those mediating skills just a tad bit there moos.

I don't feel I am a victim but I think you are being abusive. There is a difference. One acknowledges another person is aggressing upon someone of which I am incidental to the observation, while the other is lamenting and seeking attention or sympathies for setting themselves up for failure. Toxic people have a tendency to blame the people they seek out and they seek out those who wish not to have confrontation because they have a tendency to accept the blame and guilt for the toxic person's behavior even if it is an unwarranted accusation.

I came into the discussion misinterpreting your position as a common interpretation and have been advised elsewise through the explanations of yourself and others. Even before this dawned on me you were falsely stating I was manipulating and had no experiences or agreement with his position. Yeah, it shocked me that you were jumping to those conclusions. Whatever. I don't need pity for it but I am surprised. I am offended at how you treat others because it is wrong.

You've been doing your best to get me to drop to your level. The worst I had done after numerous false accusations of my motivations was to say it was bull chips. Which was calling a spade a spade about what you were saying. You wanted an apology for that. Really? Um, how about no. I have given you the video twice because it is what I think of when I say let it go. It is liberating not to continue to be negativistic and drone on but oh no we cannot have that as we haven't picked the bones clean yet of the conversation, and henceforth what visual came to mind. It is really pathetic to keep on and on with the same accusation when a person has given you an explanation. Which is more than I can say for the comparison I gave to Gnosticism (and my question again, for the record, was not meant as a slur, but whatever) that I asked from you and never received. Yet I did what? Oh yeah, let it go...


So I will do as wiser folks have before me and realize you have some unique beliefs and a bad attitude when challenged, and will go to any extreme to win an argument. You want to be the nang of the board, go ahead and don't be surprised when your rude behavior is pointed out again and again and again. (Eventually it will be by everyone because folks get tired of that type of negativity all the time) I feel bad that I had not spoken up before with other people but you are running through folks lately and going after some of the kinder people we have on this board to push their buttons and for what gain? And let me be clear, lest you accuse me of false modesty, I am referring to Miss Annie and Lily here, not myself. You are doing an incredible disservice to your faith and you are causing harm to not just Orthodox beliefs, but Christian beliefs as well.

Ya want to know why I bother to involve myself even though it blows up in my hand more often than not? Because I know a large number of people that leave Christianity because of the piss poor attitudes of its supposedly loving followers. I really hate confrontation with people. Detest it. I screwed up big time with this because I should not attempted to see your claims from an Orthodox position but asked you if you really should have been chewing jmdrake a new one since he isn't even a member of your church. That would have cut to the chase because really, I just want the board not to descend to the level of nastiness for which it has such a rightful reputation. So it will be cliff notes version next time, because I am tired of this attitude of your one, true church chosenness you want to cram down other people's throats. You don't want to actually show your creative approach upon the basis of your church's teachings you want to hide behind the skirts of the priests and claim stuff that isn't even there(ETA: in the links you provide). It isn't worth the effort of serious discussion to understand what you believe when it really boils down to a claim of superiority by association with a church title.

[jmdrake]

Don't worry jmd--I realize you can't help yourself being a lawyer, but I can also see that you're a good lawyer. You held my feet to the fire and that's okay--I can stand the heat because I'm made of fire--I eat fire for breakfast.

Thanks. And she's hot. (Pun intended).

Really? What's this then?





It's just amazing how that didn't work out so well considering your mediating skills and all.

It might help next time not to mock with graphic images, videos, lies, insults and false accusations about what I believe. I think you need to tweak those mediating skills just a tad bit there moos.

Okay. I went back to the thread that started it all and found this:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5683222

I actually read the link you posted and knew you were quoting goc. But you're understanding of what it's actually saying is where we are having our differences. Are you sure you're not trying to support jmd to the point where you were hoping that I'd contradict my own belief? I saw what was happening moos. As much as I do respect your opinion, where we part company in understanding is if you think I'm saying anything other than we shouldn't rely on the physical feelings, but rather every word that proceeds out of the mouth of God in knowledge and wisdom. That is a goc teaching. If you can find a quote where I've indicated otherwise as such--please do.

Well--"intuitive" is a mental function of the brain and connected to our conscience, which is the only way the Holy Spirit can work through us. So it stands to reason that the physical and the spiritual are connected through our physical bodies, but this is not an indication that the physical gut feeling has any redeeming power absent the wisdom and knowledge of God.

That is where things between you and moostracks went off track. You believed that because she was questioning whether your interpretation of your church's teachings was actually right that she was just trying to back me up. Now we've gotten to this thread where TER has made it clear that your position is at the very least debateable. So why still be mad at moostracks? Terry you have some great qualities. I'm certain you love the Lord and you love your church. You passionately swing your sword of truth. But sometimes you swing it a little too wild. Moostracks wasn't trying to take you down or back me up. She was expressing her own understanding of what she read. People out to be able to do that without it being perceived as an attack.

[Terry1]

Thanks. And she's hot. (Pun intended).



Okay. I went back to the thread that started it all and found this:

http://www.ronpaulforums.com/showthr...=1#post5683222


That is where things between you and moostracks went off track. You believed that because she was questioning whether your interpretation of your church's teachings was actually right that she was just trying to back me up. Now we've gotten to this thread where TER has made it clear that your position is at the very least debateable. So why still be mad at moostracks? Terry you have some great qualities. I'm certain you love the Lord and you love your church. You passionately swing your sword of truth. But sometimes you swing it a little too wild. Moostracks wasn't trying to take you down or back me up. She was expressing her own understanding of what she read. People out to be able to do that without it being perceived as an attack.

You and I have bridged our disagreement. I don't want to suck TER into this. His input helped make peace, but you making the claim that TER was any more swayed towards your argument or mine was neither from what I could tell. He basically supported us both. My argument was that Jesus is the hypostatic wisdom of God and all attributes flow from Him. Your argument that Jesus was more than wisdom. While my argument does support church teaching, the church teaching also supports that all divine attributes can be hypostatic at the same time--meaning all divine attributes can be just as sediment and foundational as Wisdom itself. In other terms--that everything became Jesus all at once because of the wisdom and power of God.

While your argument that Jesus was "more" than wisdom--it was my argument that He couldn't possibly be more than what He already is. I never said that He was "only" wisdom. What I said was what the teaching was saying that "Wisdom" was Jesus and the very foundation (hypostatic Wisdom of God) from which all the other divine attributes flowed.

What TER's input did was bring us together in understanding that the hypostatic union includes all of the divine attributes as well as wisdom itself and all occurring at the same time being uncreated. So it could be said either way that Jesus encompasses and embodies God in every single way being God incarnate Himself. This sort of bridged the gap between our arguments where we could meet in the middle and say---yes--that Jesus is the incarnate God that embodies the hypostatic wisdom, hypostatic love and all of the divine attributes all at the same time. This bridged our argument where we met in the middle.

As far as moos goes--you can't tell me anything other than what not only I witnessed, but every other reader that has an ounce of intellect and reading comp skill.

At the same time--moos has never once admitted that she played any part as anything other than being a *victim* who's intentions were nothing but pure and good. While the rest of us--even TER came in and said that we're all guilty to some degree of being less than what we should've been or be with regard to how we act in our dialogue to one another. Have you seen any kind of repentance on moos's part? No--and I doubt that we will ever see it, because she sees herself as the victim of everyone else's misunderstanding of her "good" intentions--despite her actions that were anything even close to that.

Same as when she said that some of the Orthodox were treating her as a lessor person because she wasn't Greek or Russian and that they had this superior attitude towards her--the same she accused me of having-- While I have admitted that I make mistakes, I'm not perfect and that I'm no different than any other person just the same. She sees herself as everyone's victim. Yes--I am proud of my Greek roots and heritage, but I don't rub anyone's nose in that and never have.

[Terry1]

hey Terry- can you not read your own posts? You insult (or try to) posters almost every post. You talk down to them and think you are always right. You think you have the correct view on everything. Look in the mirror.

btw- are you off your meds again? (honest question)-

This is why it's no surprise to me that you're halfway through life now and still delivering pizza for a living, then whining in here that you have no job and no way to pay your bills. Who was the only one who offered to send you some cash then? Uh--yes it was me. Extra cheese, no olives please.

I'm a terrible person aren't I Kevin. I don't just talk the talk--I do walk it--as in my "good works", compassion and love for others in need.

[Terry1]

I don't feel I am a victim but I think you are being abusive.

Victim mentality.

There is a difference. One acknowledges another person is aggressing upon someone of which I am incidental to the observation, while the other is lamenting and seeking attention or sympathies for setting themselves up for failure. Toxic people have a tendency to blame the people they seek out and they seek out those who wish not to have confrontation because they have a tendency to accept the blame and guilt for the toxic person's behavior even if it is an unwarranted accusation.

Accusatory with a victim mentality.

I came into the discussion misinterpreting your position as a common interpretation and have been advised elsewise through the explanations of yourself and others. Even before this dawned on me you were falsely stating I was manipulating and had no experiences or agreement with his position. Yeah, it shocked me that you were jumping to those conclusions. Whatever. I don't need pity for it but I am surprised. I am offended at how you treat others because it is wrong.

More accusations and the victim mentality.

You've been doing your best to get me to drop to your level. The worst I had done after numerous false accusations of my motivations was to say it was bull chips. Which was calling a spade a spade about what you were saying. You wanted an apology for that. Really? Um, how about no. I have given you the video twice because it is what I think of when I say let it go. It is liberating not to continue to be negativistic and drone on but oh no we cannot have that as we haven't picked the bones clean yet of the conversation, and henceforth what visual came to mind. It is really pathetic to keep on and on with the same accusation when a person has given you an explanation. Which is more than I can say for the comparison I gave to Gnosticism (and my question again, for the record, was not meant as a slur, but whatever) that I asked from you and never received. Yet I did what? Oh yeah, let it go...

So I will do as wiser folks have before me and realize you have some unique beliefs and a bad attitude when challenged, and will go to any extreme to win an argument. You want to be the nang of the board, go ahead and don't be surprised when your rude behavior is pointed out again and again and again. (Eventually it will be by everyone because folks get tired of that type of negativity all the time) I feel bad that I had not spoken up before with other people but you are running through folks lately and going after some of the kinder people we have on this board to push their buttons and for what gain? And let me be clear, lest you accuse me of false modesty, I am referring to Miss Annie and Lily here, not myself. You are doing an incredible disservice to your faith and you are causing harm to not just Orthodox beliefs, but Christian beliefs as well.

More accusations and the victim mentality.

Ya want to know why I bother to involve myself even though it blows up in my hand more often than not? Because I know a large number of people that leave Christianity because of the piss poor attitudes of its supposedly loving followers. I really hate confrontation with people. Detest it. I screwed up big time with this because I should not attempted to see your claims from an Orthodox position but asked you if you really should have been chewing jmdrake a new one since he isn't even a member of your church. That would have cut to the chase because really, I just want the board not to descend to the level of nastiness for which it has such a rightful reputation. So it will be cliff notes version next time, because I am tired of this attitude of your one, true church chosenness you want to cram down other people's throats. You don't want to actually show your creative approach upon the basis of your church's teachings you want to hide behind the skirts of the priests and claim stuff that isn't even there(ETA: in the links you provide). It isn't worth the effort of serious discussion to understand what you believe when it really boils down to a claim of superiority by association with a church title.

[moostraks]

First point of clarification I'd like to make to the Orthodox here, my experience with the church on those lists-I was mostly a lurker, so what I saw was acts perpetrated upon others and the statements of how they became Orthodox despite what hazing they suffered. My first smack down has been here courtesy of Terry who is witnessing in your church's name and it displays exactly what I was referring to on those lists regarding arrogance and misplaced pride. Whether it be for culture or church identity, it is irrelevant when the effect is to assuming authority even if your argument is unproven.

I don't have to suffer personally to learn a lesson but watching others be mistreated was enough to see what lies underneath those snarky comments and sideways glances. Yep, every church has its problems. This is one I saw, admitted ,and also witnessed by Orthodox converts. This only came up in conversation because of a video someone posted and another person says that behavior was not typical and so I contributed what I, myself, have witnessed and have heard. I want to be clear why and how this subject was brought up recently since someone wants to make an issue of victim mentality. I was not the one being mistreated then. Again I detest confrontation so after seeing people get chewed up I just mostly watched the conversations. I was not even attending an Orthodox Church. Do you know how well that would have gone over? Lol!

Second point of clarification, I am well aware of what apologizing does for those who make others walk on eggshells in their presence. It lessens the responsibility of the person who bullies other people. I did not go into discussion looking for a fight and have done my levelheaded best to bend over backwards to explain anything that might have been blown way out of proportion from what was stated or somehow inferred. I already apologized for whatever erroneous perception may have been drawn from my posts. I refuse to smother someone else's ego in a plethora of apologies for offenses I have not committed.

[moostraks]

This is why it's no surprise to me that you're halfway through life now and still delivering pizza for a living, then whining in here that you have no job and no way to pay your bills. Who was the only one who offered to send you some cash then? Uh--yes it was me. Extra cheese, no olives please.

I'm a terrible person aren't I Kevin. I don't just talk the talk--I do walk it--as in my "good works", compassion and love for others in need.

It is not good works to give money to someone then use it as a tool against someone or lay claim to it being good works. Seems as though He will be the judge of that. There is nothing wrong with delivering pizza or more noble in owning a business.

Matthew 13:Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56“And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at Him...

This type of attack is repulsive and should stop.

[Terry1]

First point of clarification I'd like to make to the Orthodox here, my experience with the church on those lists-I was mostly a lurker, so what I saw was acts perpetrated upon others and the statements of how they became Orthodox despite what hazing they suffered. My first smack down has been here courtesy of Terry who is witnessing in your church's name and it displays exactly what I was referring to on those lists regarding arrogance and misplaced pride. Whether it be for culture or church identity, it is irrelevant when the effect is to assuming authority even if your argument is unproven.

Poor moos--I'm so sorry that you're so mistreated and misunderstood.

I don't have to suffer personally to learn a lesson but watching others be mistreated was enough to see what lies underneath those snarky comments and sideways glances. Yep, every church has its problems. This is one I saw, admitted ,and also witnessed by Orthodox converts. This only came up in conversation because of a video someone posted and another person says that behavior was not typical and so I contributed what I, myself, have witnessed and have heard. I want to be clear why and how this subject was brought up recently since someone wants to make an issue of victim mentality. I was not the one being mistreated then. Again I detest confrontation so after seeing people get chewed up I just mostly watched the conversations. I was not even attending an Orthodox Church. Do you know how well that would have gone over? Lol!

moos "destests confrontation"---I hope you're all learning how not to be confrontational by moos and paying close attention here.

Second point of clarification, I am well aware of what apologizing does for those who make others walk on eggshells in their presence. It lessens the responsibility of the person who bullies other people. I did not go into discussion looking for a fight and have done my levelheaded best to bend over backwards to explain anything that might have been blown way out of proportion from what was stated or somehow inferred. I already apologized for whatever erroneous perception may have been drawn from my posts. I refuse to smother someone else's ego in a plethora of apologies for offenses I have not committed.

Thank you moos--I'm sure we all gleaned something from this beautiful display of a non-confrontational, humble witness of yours. I should print this one out so I'll never forget.

[Terry1]

It is not good works to give money to someone then use it as a tool against someone or lay claim to it being good works. Seems as though He will be the judge of that. There is nothing wrong with delivering pizza or more noble in owning a business.

Matthew 13:Is not this the carpenter’s son? Is not His mother called Mary, and His brothers, James and Joseph and Simon and Judas? 56“And His sisters, are they not all with us? Where then did this man get all these things?” 57And they took offense at Him...

This type of attack is repulsive and should stop.

Whoops! I believe Kevin was the one who made a derogatory statement about me being off my meds. You should correct Kevin moos--you're really good at that and also being impartial in your judgment. That's the wonderful gift of those mediating skills you have that bring peace, love and people together.

[moostraks]

Whoops! I believe Kevin was the one who made a derogatory statement about me being off my meds. You should correct Kevin moos--you're really good at that and also being impartial in your judgment. That's the wonderful gift of those mediating skills you have that bring peace, love and people together.

He said it was an honest question. Yours was an attack on anyone who does not have a noble profession in your opinion and a claim to your own good works. You disparaged not just a perceived threat but anyone else who might be doing the same type of work.

You cannot bring peace to a person who thrives with conflict. I have learned my lesson on that one well...

[Terry1]

He said it was an honest question.

He's also called me a drunk before too. Also that Kevin has no idea or clue whether I take any medication or not, which btw I do not and need not thank the Lord. It was an insult and I'm sure that despite you stating otherwise about it, that you're well aware of that fact too. Your interpreting skills are amazing moos.

Yours was an attack on anyone who does not have a noble profession in your opinion and a claim to your own good works. You disparaged not just a perceived threat but anyone else who might be doing the same type of work.

So you and Kevin both are victims now. I'm so sorry for the both of you. What a cruel world we live in.

You cannot bring peace to a person who thrives with conflict. I have learned my lesson on that one well...

You are so right moos--we should all learn by yours and Kevin's examples.

[RJB]

Matthew 6:14
For if you forgive other people when they sin against you, your heavenly Father will also forgive you.

...